Kalbear Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceChampion Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 19 minutes ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said: Jack Bauer is very tired of this shit right around now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Oh Mitch you're such a dirty tease Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said: To be really really clear I'm not talking about recent events- I'm talking about the well documented breakdown of people's moral frameworks across the world. And in general somewhere between 20 and 30% of all populations literally desire a strongman singular leader and authoritarianism over other things. It is to some degree built into our ape brains. Right now those people are basically ALL for the GOP. Fair enough. Although, if we are being more abstract like that, there are certainly those on the left with similar beliefs. I don't want to both-sides the matter, the left hasn't tried to attempt to overview the US Government this month, but they do exist. Monmouth did some polling on this over the summer, both on how prevalent these beliefs are and how they correlate to support of Trump: https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/2020/08/25/authoritarian-tendencies-in-the-american-electorate-part-1/ & https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/2020/08/25/authoritarianism-among-pro-and-anti-trump-voters-part-2/ Among those who are dangerously supportive of authoritarianism (which is still a small subset of the population, well below 20-30%), only 2% disapprove of Trump. However, of those who are more generally open to or potentially accepting of authoritarianism (which is a much larger group of people), 39% disapprove of Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 1 minute ago, Fez said: Fair enough. Although, if we are being more abstract like that, there are certainly those on the left with similar beliefs. I don't want to both-sides the matter, the left hasn't tried to attempt to overview the US Government this month, but they do exist. No, I agree and that was my point! That authoritarian leanings or desiring are independent of actual other political goals and go much deeper than that. But right now, if you're the kind of person who really truly wants a strongman (and there are a LOT of people who do), you have nothing for you on the left. Sanders was kind of there for a while, but if you have that itch you're going to the GOP for the most part. 1 minute ago, Fez said: Monmouth did some polling on this over the summer, both on how prevalent these beliefs are and how they correlate to support of Trump: https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/2020/08/25/authoritarian-tendencies-in-the-american-electorate-part-1/ & https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/2020/08/25/authoritarianism-among-pro-and-anti-trump-voters-part-2/ Among those who are dangerously supportive of authoritarianism (which is still a small subset of the population, well below 20-30%), only 2% disapprove of Trump. However, of those who are more generally open to or potentially accepting of authoritarianism (which is a much larger group of people), 39% disapprove of Trump. Polling is not going to ever do a good job capturing these sorts of people for the same reason it doesn't do a good job capturing Trump support; the people who are going to be 'dangerously' supportive of authoritarianism are also going to be the kinds of people who do not trust most people openly and easily, and will simply not be answering surveys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Kalbear ninja'd me as I was coming to say how fun it was to hear Mitch blading Donald deep in the back. https://news.yahoo.com/mcconnell-blames-trump-powerful-people-174755289.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 20 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said: Jack Bauer is very tired of this shit right around now. Jack Bauer is Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said: Polling is not going to ever do a good job capturing these sorts of people for the same reason it doesn't do a good job capturing Trump support; the people who are going to be 'dangerously' supportive of authoritarianism are also going to be the kinds of people who do not trust most people openly and easily, and will simply not be answering surveys. I agree. Among that worst group ('dangerous' is my phrasing, not Monmouth), things might be even more lopsided than 98-2 in favor of Trump. And there are almost certainly more of them than the poll found; since it would've suffered from the same polling issues that the election polling had this year. However, even if you account for that error and adjust the numbers by how much the election polls missed so that all of them count in the worst group, you don't get too up to that "roughly 1/3rd of the country" level. That only happens if you expand to count people at that second tier, who are more closely divided. You're also right that there isn't currently a leader to rally those on the left who might want authoritarianism, so they're mostly quiet for now. Certainly the issue of right-wing authoritarianism and terrorism is much bigger right now; but we'd have to expand beyond just them if we're trying to address root causes. First comes stamping out the immediate threat though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindwalker Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IheartIheartTesla Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 "Speak their piece". I know Feinstein didnt spell it out while saying those words, or it would have been enough reason to primary her (worse than hugging Lindsey) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 36 minutes ago, Fez said: However, even if you account for that error and adjust the numbers by how much the election polls missed so that all of them count in the worst group, you don't get too up to that "roughly 1/3rd of the country" level. That only happens if you expand to count people at that second tier, who are more closely divided. The second tier is what I'd look at I guess if you're employing Altemeyer's scheme - those susceptible to authoritarian appeals. And then there's another tier of those that would be complacent, especially if the authoritarian regime does not present a threat to them personally. Then, of course, there's the tier that can be pressured into compliance due to social pressure, which Milgram and Zimbardo demonstrated is a shitton of us with their crazy fuck "experiments." Ultimately, the authoritarian personality is inherently limited as a field of inquiry. If you're assuming it's an innate characteristic, that means it's a constant and these people have always been here and always will be (a premise I readily accept). Consequently, it cannot explain the global rise of the radical right over the past forty odd years. Other than to remind us we're always vulnerable to such a threat, I suppose. Due to such (re)emergence's dependence on exogenous factors, personality studies aren't particularly useful at a certain point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 2 hours ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said: Citation needed. Do you have evidence that you can win and be better? Its also a false equivalence. I'm not saying folks need to mudsling. I'm saying folks need to do a lot more deplatforming of people. And in Bidens case they did just that - they largely ignored fox news, ignored the idiotic requests for debate from other sources, and encouraged others to do the same. I guess I would just point to who we’re talking about and compare his campaign to Hillary’s in 2016. Biden’s campaign was rather positive. Hillary’s at times would get pulled down into the mud and that’s what Trump wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindwalker Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 15 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said: "Speak their piece". I know Feinstein didnt spell it out while saying those words, or it would have been enough reason to primary her (worse than hugging Lindsey) I agree except... nothing is worse than hugging Lindse! I noticed a certain hesitation with several D senators when asked about holding Hawley or Cruz responsible, even a tiny bit with Bernie. They were all very vague, didn't really reply, and steered the convo back to T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Joe Biden just gave a farewell speech from the Major Beau Biden National Reserve Center in Delaware, on his way to Washington for the Inauguration. It was an emotional, moving speech, and so very weird...a President with empathy! One of his major scheduled events today will be attending a memorial for the 400,000 who have died because of Covid-19. Shocking, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 2 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said: Two National Guard members have been removed from duty protecting Biden's inauguration because of connection to far right militia groups. That number seems awful low - if 20000 are there in DC, I'd put the number more at 200 or thereabouts. Its hard to vet for these things though, you only catch the stupid ones who make public posts on social media etc... Up to 12 now These numbers sound about right to me, since I'd actually expect rates of extremism to be lower in the military than the civilian population. We're rightfully so concerned about it because the consequences are so much worse. But members of the military get two things that most other people don't: 1) Regular training (I think annually?) on why extremism is bad; and 2) Constant/regular (depending if active duty or if national guard) participation in a large social network. The military also does an initial screening when you enlist. It could certainly miss people, or they could radicalize at some point after joining, but it probably helps weed out some potential problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Saw McCarthy and McConnell are gonna attend church with Biden tomorrow. Ah, back to the comforting status quo of using church to pretend we're ever gonna be bipartisan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindwalker Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Traditionally, the military in many countries attracts right-wing extremists and authoritarian types more than most other industries. I'd be surprised if this was different in the US. Admittedly, I know little about the inner workings of the US military. Maybe all those types join either the police or choose the cloth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Pence will not be attending the Trump farewell gathering tomorrow morning. And apparently congressmen associated with the Jan. 6th rally have asked for pardons, as have the fundraisers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Mindwalker, I agree. I would have thought the opposite was true. Certainly, the UK military has an extensive and sustained anti-extremism screening, training and monitoring programme, and yet amongst far right activists and detainees, the ex-military are massively over represented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 3 minutes ago, Hereward said: Certainly, the UK military has an extensive and sustained anti-extremism screening, training and monitoring programme, and yet amongst far right activists and detainees, the ex-military are massively over represented. The US military is not unique in this regard - there are certainly a disproportionate amount of far-right leaning members. But, Trump's support among the military is markedly low for a GOP president, let alone such an authoritarian one. Ironically, he may have undermined his support with the rank and file by flaunting institutional norms and deference to the military. And the brass can't be happy he went an entire presidency without starting a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.