The missing princesses Daella and Rhae Targaryen

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

You understood right 

Sure, but impossible to have a proper feudal setup complete with Houses and all by 10000 yrs ago. 

OK, I see where you went.  

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/24/2021 at 10:02 AM, Curled Finger said:

I have no idea how hair and eye color work in this bizarre world.  All I know is the seed is lousy strong in all the noble houses.  That said, my 12 year-old brother with black hair began to sprout white hairs.  They called it a birthmark, but didn't happen until he began puberty.   His black hair was overtaken by white by the time he turned 30.  I'm not sure what causes hair to change color, but early grey/white/silver is a thing at least in our world.  

Sure, that's a possibility, but when GRRM happens to mention hair or eye color of a minor character I think it's for a purpose.  Because usually he doesn't bother.  And on at least two seperate occassions we have reference to Alerie's silver braids.  So the author continues to hammer home the hair of two Hightower girls, one with hair of silver the other of gold.  

And while this is a quite a bit of speculation, we have one other character with hair of silver despite his youth, in Gerold Dayne.  So the question is why is he named Gerold?  Is it merely an homage to a great knight of the Kingsguard?  Or perhaps does he too have a Hightower ancestor, and perhaps named after a great uncle?

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sure, that's a possibility, but when GRRM happens to mention hair or eye color of a minor character I think it's for a purpose.  Because usually he doesn't bother.  And on at least two seperate occassions we have reference to Alerie's silver braids.  So the author continues to hammer home the hair of two Hightower girls, one with hair of silver the other of gold.  

And while this is a quite a bit of speculation, we have one other character with hair of silver despite his youth, in Gerold Dayne.  So the question is why is he named Gerold?  Is it merely an homage to a great knight of the Kingsguard?  Or perhaps does he too have a Hightower ancestor, and perhaps named after a great uncle?

Ah, I see now.  Very good.  

[The hairy bear]

On 1/16/2021 at 4:07 AM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

As far as the Great houses go we know that they were not married in the Starks, Lannister, Baratheons or Targaryen, we can safely exclude the Tyrells, Tullys and Greyjoys and we are left with the Arryns and Martells.

I don't think the Arryns are likely. Daella, the eldest of the sisters, was born at 199. Given that Jon Arryn was born at 225, that would mean that the only way to realistically introduce one of the princess into the Arryn family tree would be making her Jasper's wife/Jon's mother. That's something that I believe that would have been mentioned.

(Although if it was the case there would be a nice irony in Robert's irrational hatred towards the Targaryens, given that both his father (Steffon) and his surrogate father (Jon) would be half-Targ.

Martell would seem a likelier guess. If Elia had a quarter or a eight of Targaryen blood (plus whatever came from Daenerys), it would help to explain why Aerys chose her as Rhaegar's bride.

On 1/16/2021 at 4:07 AM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Maester Aemon had served first at the Citadel and at Dragonstone before leaving for the Wall. Considering the fact that he recalls his sisters singing to their children we could assume that they were living near the places where he was serving Oldtown and Dragonstone. In that case the Houses Velaryon and Hightower the two most powerful houses of the area excluding the Tyrells and the Targaryens seem to be the most logical choices.

That's an interesting line of thought, but unfortunately Aemon served at more places than the Citadel or Dragonstone. We are told that after forging his chain he went at "some lordling's court". Then, he was summoned to court until he decided to go with his brother Daeron at Dragonstone. And we do not know what Aemon did between Daeron's and Maekar's death.

On 1/16/2021 at 5:32 PM, Endymion I Targaryen said:

One possibillity is that both daughters and their children died at Summerhal.

Makes a lot of sense, as the World Book tells us that "In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall".

But it would be very improbable that Daella and Rhaella's lines ended at Summerhall. At 259 they would be in their late fifties, presumably with a healthy number of children and grandchildren. It'd be a strecht having all of them at Summerhall and all of them perishing there. Plus, that would mean the extinction of two not insignificant noble houses that we should have heard about.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

11 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think the Arryns are likely. Daella, the eldest of the sisters, was born at 199. Given that Jon Arryn was born at 225, that would mean that the only way to realistically introduce one of the princess into the Arryn family tree would be making her Jasper's wife/Jon's mother. That's something that I believe that would have been mentioned.

(Although if it was the case there would be a nice irony in Robert's irrational hatred towards the Targaryens, given that both his father (Steffon) and his surrogate father (Jon) would be half-Targ.

Martell would seem a likelier guess. If Elia had a quarter or a eight of Targaryen blood (plus whatever came from Daenerys), it would help to explain why Aerys chose her as Rhaegar's bride.

 

I see and it makes sense that the Arryns might not be one of them. I hadn’t thought about the Martells that way, but since Aerys wanted a bride with some Valyrian ancestry a Targaryen princess 80ish years in the past would had been better than a bride with a Targaryen princess 150ish years in the past. That being said it’s intriguing for me why the Targaryens seemed to marry in the same non Targaryen families, Velaryon, Martells, Baratheon, Hightower and Penrose while illustrious families like the Lannisters, the Manderlys, Florents, Tyrells, Mallisters and Castameres for example were not among them. Of course houses around Westeros could have some Targaryen blood through maternal line like for example Baela, Rhaena or Elaena.

11 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

That's an interesting line of thought, but unfortunately Aemon served at more places that Citadel or Dragonstone. We are told that after forging his chain he went at "some lordling's court". Then, he was summoned to court until he decided to go with his brother Daeron at Dragonstone. And we do not know what Aemon did between Daeron's and Maekar's death.

 

Oh bummer! I missed that part.  On the other hand judging by the historical era that the sisters were at marriageable age they could had been married into families that were loyal after the Blackfyre Rebellions. 

[Loose Bolt]

6 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

That being said it’s intriguing for me why the Targaryens seemed to marry in the same non Targaryen families, Velaryon, Martells, Baratheon, Hightower and Penrose while illustrious families like the Lannisters, the Manderlys, Florents, Tyrells, Mallisters and Castameres for example were not among them. Of course houses around Westeros could have some Targaryen blood through maternal line like for example Baela, Rhaena or Elaena.

I suspect that reason why Targs did not marry Lannisters is that they (unlike Bobby) understood how potentially dangerous Lannisters could be to their dynasty. After all not even Arryns or Baratheons alone could really challenge them. But Lannisters are very rich and unlike another "kingdoms" they do have much higher chances of controlling their bannermen and so a Lannister with any claim to Iron Throne had been more dangerous to Targ dynasty than potential usurper from almost any other house.

[The Wondering Wolf]

14 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

That being said it’s intriguing for me why the Targaryens seemed to marry in the same non Targaryen families, Velaryon, Martells, Baratheon, Hightower and Penrose while illustrious families like the Lannisters, the Manderlys, Florents, Tyrells, Mallisters and Castameres for example were not among them. Of course houses around Westeros could have some Targaryen blood through maternal line like for example Baela, Rhaena or Elaena.

Velaryons were Valyrians and half Targaryen themselves, Baratheons were basically a cadet branch and the Penroses must have had some Targaryen blood, as well (I think the second Laena Velaryon was the mother of Ronnel and Aelinor was his daughter from a former wife). 

6 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that reason why Targs did not marry Lannisters is that they (unlike Bobby) understood how potentially dangerous Lannisters could be to their dynasty. After all not even Arryns or Baratheons alone could really challenge them. But Lannisters are very rich and unlike another "kingdoms" they do have much higher chances of controlling their bannermen and so a Lannister with any claim to Iron Throne had been more dangerous to Targ dynasty than potential usurper from almost any other house.

I am not so sure about that. When Alysanne offered her daughter Daella three potential husbands, Tymond Lannister was among them. So it seems the Lannisters were not especially excluded by the Targaryens.

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/28/2021 at 11:02 AM, The hairy bear said:

Martell would seem a likelier guess. If Elia had a quarter or a eight of Targaryen blood (plus whatever came from Daenerys), it would help to explain why Aerys chose her as Rhaegar's bride.

Maybe, but then this conversation between Quentyn and Daenerys seems to imply that his closest Targaryen ancestor was Daenerys Targaryen:

Quote

"They are dragons, Quentyn."  Dany stood on her toes and kissed him lightly, once on each cheek.  "And so am I."  

The young prince swallowed.  "I ... I have the blood of the dragon in me as well, Your Grace.  I can trace my lineage back to the first Daenerys, the Targaryen princess who was sister to King Daeron the Good and wife to Prince of Dorne.  He built the Water Gardens for her."

If Quentyn believed that he had a more recent Targaryen princess as an ancestor (probably a great (maybe great great) grandmother) wouldn't he have mentioned that?

Now since we're talking several generations up the line it's also possible that if one of Aegon's sisters had married into another House (say House Dayne), that a descendant from that house could have married into House Martell, providing at least two different Targaryen bloodlines into House Martell.  And perhaps since that Targaryen princess was never a Martell, Quentyn wouldn't have thought to mention that relation.

ETA: now that I think of that, it kind of makes sense.  We're never told the identity of Quentyn's paternal grandfather (who probably would not have been born a Martell).  Perhaps he was the son or grandson of one of Aegon V's sisters.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

24 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Quentyn believed that he had a more recent Targaryen princess as an ancestor (probably a great (maybe great great) grandmother) wouldn't he have mentioned that?

Maybe he was trying to appeal to her emotion because of their common name?

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Maybe he was trying to appeal to her emotion because of their common name?

Maybe, but it's doubtful.  He was trying to prove to her that he was a suitable husband for her.  It wouldn't have made sense for him to have not mentioned a more recent Targaryen ancestor if she had been in his direct line.  Which makes me think that the only Targaryen Princess in his direct line was Daenerys.