The missing princesses Daella and Rhae Targaryen

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

That is my first topic so please be kind with me if that was mentioned before.

After the World of Ice and Fire and the Fire and Blood were published we found out about the weddings of almost all the Targaryen princes and princesses. The only two that are still mysteriously missing are Maekar’s daughters Daella and Rhae but still we know they were married when Maester Aemon mentioned that they had children. As far as the Great houses go we know that they were not married in the Starks, Lannister, Baratheons or Targaryen, we can safely exclude the Tyrells, Tullys and Greyjoys and we are left with the Arryns and Martells. If we look at the rest of the noble houses the Targaryens were married with the Velaryon, Penrose, Dayne, Blackwood, Dondarrion, Costayne, Manwoody, Royce, Farman and Hightower. Finally they had also married in the Rogare and a Tyroshi family.

Maester Aemon had served first at the Citadel and at Dragonstone before leaving for the Wall. Considering the fact that he recalls his sisters singing to their children we could assume that they were living near the places where he was serving Oldtown and Dragonstone. In that case the Houses Velaryon and Hightower the two most powerful houses of the area excluding the Tyrells and the Targaryens seem to be the most logical choices. Other houses sworn to Dragonstone are Celtigar, Bar Emmon and Sunglass while the houses sworn to the Hightowers are the Beesbury, Bulwer, Costayne, Cuy and Mullendore. Jorah also mentions the similarities between Lynese Hightower and Dany is possible that at least one of them married into the Targaryens. Another possibility is House Tarth since we know that a Targaryen was married with a Tarth but we don’t know if it was a male Tarth and a female Targaryen or a male Targaryen and a female Tarth. Having said that I don’t believe that it was either of them the Targaryen who married a Tarth but it was Daeron’s daughter Vaella.

In my judgment their weddings or rather the absence of any information about them is done on purpose because they will play an important role at the next books or the next Dunk and Egg novellas.

Do you find it as interesting as I do? Do you have any theories of your own?

[Endymion I Targaryen]

One possibillity is that both daughters and their children died at Summerhal.

Another possibility is that one girl had a daughter who married into house Tarth and is Brienne's grandmother and the other girl was married into house Dayne and is the ancestor of the current house Dayne of Starfall and/or house Dayne of High Hermitage.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

2 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

is the ancestor of the current house Dayne of Starfall and/or house Dayne of High Hermitage.

Didn't Darkstar said something about his house being 10000 years old?

[Nathan Stark]

I do agree with @Endymion I Targaryen regarding Summerhall. It is quite likely that Daella and Rhea were there along with their children, given Summerhalls importance to House Targaryen. And the tragedy would have been made all the greater if they died with Aegon and Dunk. We certainly don't hear anything about this branch after Summerhall.

Regarding who the girls married, I think the Velaryons, Arryns or Barratheons are the most likely matches, since all these families made marriage alliances with the Targaryens in the past.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

9 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I do agree with @Endymion I Targaryen regarding Summerhall. It is quite likely that Daella and Rhea were there along with their children, given Summerhalls importance to House Targaryen. And the tragedy would have been made all the greater if they died with Aegon and Dunk. We certainly don't hear anything about this branch after Summerhall.

The tragedy at Summerhall is possibly the way they died especially considering how important was for Egg the attempt to resurrect the dragons. Nevertheless the question about their marriage would still stand. I would agree that the Velaryons and the Arryns are the most likely possibilities. Meanwhile I don’t think that the Baratheons is a possibility remembering that in the next generation would be another wedding between them and the Targaryens.

[TheLastWolf]

8 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Didn't Darkstar said something about his house being 10000 years old?

Exaggeration. Max 7-8k

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

31 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Exaggeration. Max 7-8k

It may well be, I mostly refer to the Daynes being by far older than the Targaryens let alone the sisters’ birth and as a result it’s not possible for one of the princesses to be their ancestor.

[Daeron the Daring]

6 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

mostly refer to the Daynes being by far older than the Targaryens

 

15 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Didn't Darkstar said something about his house being 10000 years old?

This does not mean that the Daynes 10000 years before had the Valyrian look. They probably got ot from someone in the past 100 years, just as the Hightowers got it from Targaryens. Queen Alicent had brown hair, the Higtowers of present seem to have the Valyrian look.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

This does not mean that the Daynes 10000 years before had the Valyrian look. They probably got ot from someone in the past 100 years, just as the Hightowers got it from Targaryens. Queen Alicent had brown hair, the Higtowers of present seem to have the Valyrian look.

The purple eyes being a rather new trait for the Daynes is an interesting opinion. Especially since in contrast to how involved they seemed to be to the Westerosi history we have only being introduced to two of them and we have the description of the merely  three members of one of most ancient houses in Westeros. All  the same I think that considering how thematically connected are the Daynes and the purple colour we can safely assume that their purple eyes are a common feature within their family. 

The Hightowers have Valyrian look? The two Hightowers we know of are Lynese and Alerie.
Lynese

She had hair like spun gold, that Lynesse. Skin like cream.
Golden hair doesn’t necessarily means Valyrian look. If you mean about what Jorah said
Ser Jorah smiled sadly. "Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys." He bowed low. "Sleep well, my queen."
I would like to point out that Jorah still loves his wife and he is in love with Dany. Thereby he might see some slight resemblance to where there is an even slighter one.

Alerie
The descriptions we have for Alerie 
 

Quote

Her mother Lad

y Alerie, silver-haired and handsome, still proud beside Mace Tyrell. 

Quote

Sansa recognized only Lord Tyrell's tall, dignified wife, Lady Alerie, whose long silvery braid was bound with jewelled rings. 

Someone could say that the silver hair can be a sign of Valyrian looks. Having said that she was also described as handsome which is often told for women of a certain age and considering how Willas is at his mid to late 20s it can be an indication about Alerie’s age, at least mid to late 40s. Therefore it’s very possible that her silver hair have to do with her age not her heritage.
 

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The purple eyes being a rather new trait for the Daynes is an interesting opinion.

I would not call it interesting. Rather logical.

 

1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

All  the same I think that considering how thematically connected are the Daynes and the purple colour we can safely assume that their purple eyes are a common feature within their family. 

We don't know if the purple eyes and the purple purple sigil are connected. The sword is white because it is actually the colour of milk. On that context, I've considered the light puple blackground as the DAWN sky. I might be wrong, but seems more accurate than making your sigil after the colour of your eyes.

2 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The Hightowers have Valyrian look? The two Hightowers we know of are Lynese and Alerie.
Lynese

She had hair like spun gold, that Lynesse. Skin like cream.

Assuming that they have Targaryen (aka Valyrian) ancestry, their possible valyrian look should be coming from there. 

Altough Lynesse doesn't really have valyrian look (like golden hair). So Jorah either saw Daenerys similar to Lynesse, or wanted to saw her that way. Still, what better explanation would you give for a valyrian looking person, when it has a valyrian ancestry? Also, Queen Alysanne had weak valyrian looks. Blue eyes, honey colored hair.

We are told about 3 Dayne's appearance.

Edric Dayne - Pale blonde hair, dark blue/purple eyes.

Ashara Dayne - Black hair, purple eyes.

Gerold Dayne - Dark purple eyes, silver hair.

Two out of three have Valyrian look. I assume they have some kind of Valyrian ancestry.

Buz even if they do not, please, explain me how could house Dayne keep the same look for 10.000 years(especially the blonde/silver hair)? Among dornishmen. Do you know what color of hair Dornish people have? Black, or dark brown.

Just look at the case of Daeron II and his descendants. He married Myriah Martell and their first son, Baelor, looked dornish. Baelor then married Jenna Dondarrion, and their son, Valarr had brown hair with a streak of blonde/silver and blue eyes. See, how the valyrian trairs are fading? The first generation (King Daeron II) had it entirely, on the third one (Prince Valarr) it was barely recognizable. Look how House Celtigar lost their Valyrian look in a short period.

Now, explain me, how could house Dayne keep their traits for 10.000 years IN DORNE, where close to noone looks like them? Hope you'll see my point.

 

[Endymion I Targaryen]

GRRM has said Dayne purple eyes do not necessarily indicate Valyrian descent. Darkstar's silver hair is the only Valyrian trait appearing on house Dayne

[Mourning Star]

As to the original question, I suspect that one of the daughters of Maekar (probably Rhae if I had to guess) is none other than Old Nan:

Quote

Though Old Nan did not think so, and she'd lived longer than any of them. "Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had.

A Clash of Kings - Bran I

Nan doesn't call Bran prince because she is a Targaryen.

Quote

"The last dragon died before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?"
"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell III

I would expect his sisters dreamed of dragons too.

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/15/2021 at 9:07 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

In my judgment their weddings or rather the absence of any information about them is done on purpose because they will play an important role at the next books or the next Dunk and Egg novellas.

Do you find it as interesting as I do? Do you have any theories of your own?

My guess is that they were married into House Dayne and House Hightower.  Which kind of explains why we have two different characters making a connection with Dany's very Valyrian features with women from both Houses.   Jorah sees Lynesse's hair in Dany and Selmy sees Ashara's eyes in Dany.  

The Dayne connection is a fairly easy one.  It seems that it's not uncommon for marriages to be arranged with first cousins in Westeros.  A prime example is House Martell marrying Olenna's daughter Mina back into Mina's maternal family, the Redwynes.  And of course the traditional Valyrian features that pop up in Ashara and Edric's eye color and especially the strong Valyrian features of Gerold.  

For House Hightower the clues may lie in the names of some of their children: Alysanne Hightower and Baelor Hightower.  GRRM has indicated that the names in the Houses are a better indicator of a Targaryen ancestry than either hair or eye color.

But in addition to Jorah's description of Lynesse we also have Mace's wife Alerie a striking lady who sports silver hair, another Valyrian feature.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

For House Hightower the clues may lie in the names of some of their children: Alysanne Hightower and Baelor Hightower.  GRRM has indicated that the names in the Houses are a better indicator of a Targaryen ancestry than either hair or eye color.

Now we have to find which Targaryen sired Walder Frey.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But in addition to Jorah's description of Lynesse we also have Mace's wife Alerie a striking lady who sports silver hair, another Valyrian feature.

Age can make hair grey. Alerie is described as handsome which means that she is of a certain age.

[Frey family reunion]

19 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Now we have to find which Targaryen sired Walder Frey.

Age can make hair grey. Alerie is described as handsome which means that she is of a certain age.

As for your first, no it doesn't really work that way.  Children can be named after ancestors in either line, their maternal or paternal.  So we can have children named after their mother's mother or mother's father or father's mother ect.  plus it can go back several generations.  

Of course it's also true that some are named after prior Targaryens perhaps to curry favor or to as an homage.  I'm just bringing up the fact that GRRM specifically suggested that names given to children might be an indication of a Valyrian bloodline somewhere int he family tree.

As for your second, maybe but she's really not that old.  At the time of the wedding feast, the wiki has her age at 43 at the high end and 36 at the low end.  Perhaps people do age a little faster in Westeros but I think it's unlikely her silvery hair is solely as a result of age.  She's also said to be younger than her husband Mace.

[Curled Finger]

On 1/16/2021 at 9:11 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Exaggeration. Max 7-8k

Why not 10,000?   All the World Book says is thousands of years.  From what I gather, all of history could go back as far as 12,000 on Planetos.  

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for your second, maybe but she's really not that old.  At the time of the wedding feast, the wiki has her age at 43 at the high end and 36 at the low end.  Perhaps people do age a little faster in Westeros but I think it's unlikely her silvery hair is solely as a result of age.  She's also said to be younger than her husband Mace.

I have no idea how hair and eye color work in this bizarre world.  All I know is the seed is lousy strong in all the noble houses.  That said, my 12 year-old brother with black hair began to sprout white hairs.  They called it a birthmark, but didn't happen until he began puberty.   His black hair was overtaken by white by the time he turned 30.  I'm not sure what causes hair to change color, but early grey/white/silver is a thing at least in our world.  

[TheLastWolf]

27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Why not 10,000?   All the World Book says is thousands of years.  From what I gather, all of history could go back as far as 12,000 on Planetos. 

COTF etc had the Realm to themselves from 12000 years ago to 10k yrs ago. Humans arrived then. Would have taken at least more than a millennia to establish social hierarchy, tech advancement in weapons, economy as Martin is very slow in pacing advancement of cultures in his world, after all, houses last for millennia. 

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

COTF etc had the Realm to themselves from 12000 years ago to 10k yrs ago. Humans arrived then. Would have taken at least more than a millennia to establish social hierarchy, tech advancement in weapons, economy as Martin is very slow in pacing advancement of cultures in his world, after all, houses last for millennia. 

If I am understanding you are agreeing that humans before the 1st Men began showing up 10,000 years back.   We know Westeros is stunted in all areas of growth, but why discount brave 1st settler adventurers from other lands? 

[TheLastWolf]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

If I am understanding you are agreeing that humans before the 1st Men began showing up 10,000 years back. 

You understood right 

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

We know Westeros is stunted in all areas of growth, but why discount brave 1st settler adventurers from other lands? 

Sure, but impossible to have a proper feudal setup complete with Houses and all by 10000 yrs ago.