Vhagar's color

[direpupy]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There are different ways to read this.

Not really, slain cousins plural with no named exceptions. So its really just a generic term describing how all dragons are related, without naming there exact relation.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, but you suggested that Balerion was the father of both which would make them half-siblings.

And they still could be with the cousin thing being very doubtful.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Chances are pretty good that he is right on that one. Not that it matters at all how dragons procreate.

Pretty good but not a fact so he might still be wrong, George does like his red herrings.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany's three eggs look all different, as do the eggs of Egg and his siblings and the Butterwell egg.

Dany's eggs might not all be from the same clutch, the same goes for the eggs of Egg and his siblings. Especially since it is Egg himself who tells Dunk that there are eggs even from before the Dance, and we only have a description of the eggs of Aerion and Egg himself and no idea what the eggs of they other siblings looked like.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The in-universe description isn't a description by the narrator or a POV, but a vague historical description. And the parallel with the description of the fire is pretty telling in my opinion. Balerion and Drogon's fires are both black with swirls of red ... and the fires of Dany's dragons reflect their coloring.

There is nothing vague about the description, he is black.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is the only secondary color we know of for Meraxes. And it seems that basically all dragons do have at least two colors. Even the Cannibal has green eyes.

Like @TheTargaryenHistorian pointed out there are more dragons that we only have one color for, so dragons with only one color is not out of the question at all.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure Quicksilver and Dreamfyre spent much time on Dragonstone in their youth. Vermithor and Silverwing did, though.

Once bonded with there rider the would have been with them off course, but Quicksilver and Dreamfyre where presented to there first riders as hatchlings so they where born on Dragonstone.

[direpupy]

10 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

One last thing, I agree with what has been said regarding there being too many dragons during Jaehaerys’ reign that George didn’t account for by rewriting/ editing the later stories, mainly the dance. We hear of many young ‘drakes’ living on Dragonstone or in the dragonpit that just disappear from history, not to mention muddy the water on dragon lineage. My best guess is Cannibal wiped them all out except Sheepstealer and Grey Ghost, but it does seem odd on George’s part to establish that there were so many young dragons alive at that time, especially as we now know that most of Jaehaerys’ children didn’t claim dragons for some reason and of the three that did, one claimed Vhagar. So we have many previously unridden drakes just existing on Dragonstone and in the Dragonpit with Caraxes and Meleys being the only ones named and claimed.

I gave this some thought, and apart from Cannibal eating a few, some might not have survived for other reasons. Hatchlings are pretty weak when first hatched, just look at Dany's dragons, they can't fly and she has to BBQ there meat for them because there flame is to weak to do it themselves. So the mother dragon has to care for them in the first few weeks/months but also has to leave them to go hunting, besides Cannibal there might be other predators for whom hatchling is a tasty snack. Then there is Rhaena's hatchling that withers and dies, this might not be an uncommon occurrence and then if they are allowed to roam wild, fights for hunting territory or mating rights among dragons might kill a few more.

So if i remember correctly there are a dozen hatchlings in 31 AC two more in 37 AC and an other three in 51 AC so that is 17 hatchlings, however Vermithor, Dreamfyre, Silverwing and Sheepstealer would be dragons from among these 17, so we are missing 13 hatchlings and with all the dangers for a hatchling and young drake 1 in 4 surviving seems pretty reasonable to me.

It does make you wonder do why the Targaryen's would not take the hatchlings to protect them, but there might be some reason for letting nature have its course 

[Free Northman Reborn]

If colour runs in lineages and Balerion indeed had some red swirls, then that makes Cannibal as the only coal black dragon even more unique and strengthens the case for him being of a unique lineage unrelated to the Targaryen dragons.

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

5 hours ago, direpupy said:

I gave this some thought, and apart from Cannibal eating a few, some might not have survived for other reasons. Hatchlings are pretty weak when first hatched, just look at Dany's dragons, they can't fly and she has to BBQ there meat for them because there flame is to weak to do it themselves. So the mother dragon has to care for them in the first few weeks/months but also has to leave them to go hunting, besides Cannibal there might be other predators for whom hatchling is a tasty snack. Then there is Rhaena's hatchling that withers and dies, this might not be an uncommon occurrence and then if they are allowed to roam wild, fights for hunting territory or mating rights among dragons might kill a few more.

So if i remember correctly there are a dozen hatchlings in 31 AC two more in 37 AC and an other three in 51 AC so that is 17 hatchlings, however Vermithor, Dreamfyre, Silverwing and Sheepstealer would be dragons from among these 17, so we are missing 13 hatchlings and with all the dangers for a hatchling and young drake 1 in 4 surviving seems pretty reasonable to me.

It does make you wonder do why the Targaryen's would not take the hatchlings to protect them, but there might be some reason for letting nature have its course 

This certainly seems plausible. As for your last point, it seems the Targaryens may have been quite selective about which dragons they wanted based on colour. If the colours are random as I believe them to be, then perhaps these hatchlings were abandoned/ left to go wild because they were ugly or had unimpressive colours. Sheepstealer and Grey Ghost certainly aren’t described as the most attractive dragons.

I have previously argued in another topic that I don’t think it’s a coincidence that of all the young drakes previously unridden, Meleys and Caraxes were in the dragonpit just when Aemon and Alyssa wanted dragons. I know Alyssa initially wanted Balerion, but I think the Dragonkeepers manning the hatcheries on Dragonstone selected Caraxes and Meleys based on their distinctive red colouring, and in Meleys’ case pink and copper to boot. I know this is mostly conjecture as Caraxes and Meleys may have hatched in the Dragonpit but I think it more likely that only the more impressive dragons were transported to the dragonpit from Dragonstone to be claimed. I certainly always believed Alicent had something to do with Aegon II getting by far the most beautiful dragon, Sunfyre.

Also if we add Grey Ghost to the same generation as Vermithor, Dreamfyre, Silverwing and Sheepstealer than actually theres 12 drakes unaccounted for which as you say, between Cannibal and a possible hereditary illness that the dragons were suffering from (quick aside: the extinction of the dragons may not have been entirely down to the maesters, as eggs not hatching and withered hatchlings appearing suggests the dragons were already suffering) many of these drakes would likely not survive. Your point about needing a mother to care for them initially may also be true, in which case maybe the Targaryen dragons were moved around too much/ too domesticated to fulfill this role, dooming their hatchlings.

As unfair and upsetting as it is, I do believe the Targaryens were incredibly callous and vain and chose the most beautiful dragons to ride and raise from eggs/ hatchlings, from the hatcheries on Dragonstone, and the rest of the clutch that weren’t as impressive were just left to be eaten by Cannibal or die from neglect.

[direpupy]

19 minutes ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

This certainly seems plausible. As for your last point, it seems the Targaryens may have been quite selective about which dragons they wanted based on colour. If the colours are random as I believe them to be, then perhaps these hatchlings were abandoned/ left to go wild because they were ugly or had unimpressive colours. Sheepstealer and Grey Ghost certainly aren’t described as the most attractive dragons.

I have previously argued in another topic that I don’t think it’s a coincidence that of all the young drakes previously unridden, Meleys and Caraxes were in the dragonpit just when Aemon and Alyssa wanted dragons. I know Alyssa initially wanted Balerion, but I think the Dragonkeepers manning the hatcheries on Dragonstone selected Caraxes and Meleys based on their distinctive red colouring, and in Meleys’ case pink and copper to boot. I know this is mostly conjecture as Caraxes and Meleys may have hatched in the Dragonpit but I think it more likely that only the more impressive dragons were transported to the dragonpit from Dragonstone to be claimed. I certainly always believed Alicent had something to do with Aegon II getting by far the most beautiful dragon, Sunfyre.

Also if we add Grey Ghost to the same generation as Vermithor, Dreamfyre, Silverwing and Sheepstealer than actually theres 12 drakes unaccounted for which as you say, between Cannibal and a possible hereditary illness that the dragons were suffering from (quick aside: the extinction of the dragons may not have been entirely down to the maesters, as eggs not hatching and withered hatchlings appearing suggests the dragons were already suffering) many of these drakes would likely not survive. Your point about needing a mother to care for them initially may also be true, in which case maybe the Targaryen dragons were moved around too much/ too domesticated to fulfill this role, dooming their hatchlings.

As unfair and upsetting as it is, I do believe the Targaryens were incredibly callous and vain and chose the most beautiful dragons to ride and raise from eggs/ hatchlings, from the hatcheries on Dragonstone, and the rest of the clutch that weren’t as impressive were just left to be eaten by Cannibal or die from neglect.

The Targaryen's being selective is a good possibility, but i also after some further thought realized that taking a newborn hatchling from a mother dragon could actually be dangerous, even if you are the rider of said mother dragon.

Imagine this "hi my darling big-ass fire breathing lizard i'm just going to take your newborn baby okay" the dragons answer is probably going to be no, and since dragons can't talk the no would be in the form of a burst of flame burning the meat off of your bones.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

Not really, slain cousins plural with no named exceptions. So its really just a generic term describing how all dragons are related, without naming there exact relation.

They could all be cousins with there being no closer relation, no? Cousins as a generic term could mean they are cousins of different degree.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

And they still could be with the cousin thing being very doubtful.

It is not 'very doubtful', it could be an accurate description of their relation to one another.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

Pretty good but not a fact so he might still be wrong, George does like his red herrings.

George doesn't like his red herrings. He rarely uses any of those.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

Dany's eggs might not all be from the same clutch, the same goes for the eggs of Egg and his siblings. Especially since it is Egg himself who tells Dunk that there are eggs even from before the Dance, and we only have a description of the eggs of Aerion and Egg himself and no idea what the eggs of they other siblings looked like.

Egg introduces the older eggs from before the Dance after first speaking about his own egg and that of Aerion, indicating that they are from the clutch of the last dragon. Also, the idea that the eggs from the same clutch all look similar/the same is so far completely without basis in the text since no dragon (egg) looked alike so far.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

There is nothing vague about the description, he is black.

All historical descriptions are vague in the sense that no living person has actually seen those dragons. Some descriptions are more detailed than others, of course, but neither FaB nor TWoIaF are dragonlore books. The only accurate descriptions of dragons and dragon eggs we have (aside from Elaena's egg which is based on the author's own description) are from the novels and novellas.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

Like @TheTargaryenHistorian pointed out there are more dragons that we only have one color for, so dragons with only one color is not out of the question at all.

Not out of the question but not really very likely in the case of Balerion.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

Once bonded with there rider the would have been with them off course, but Quicksilver and Dreamfyre where presented to there first riders as hatchlings so they where born on Dragonstone.

While both Quicksilver and Dreamfyre hatched on Dragonstone there is no indication they spent much time there in their youth. Your idea was that dragons had problems growing very large because they didn't spend time on Dragonstone in their early years.

They were handed to their future riders, and specifically Prince Aenys did not spend as much time on Dragonstone as Maegor. And Rhaena would have only spend much time on Dragonstone when her royal grandfather moved the court there in 35 AC.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

I gave this some thought, and apart from Cannibal eating a few, some might not have survived for other reasons. Hatchlings are pretty weak when first hatched, just look at Dany's dragons, they can't fly and she has to BBQ there meat for them because there flame is to weak to do it themselves. So the mother dragon has to care for them in the first few weeks/months but also has to leave them to go hunting, besides Cannibal there might be other predators for whom hatchling is a tasty snack. Then there is Rhaena's hatchling that withers and dies, this might not be an uncommon occurrence and then if they are allowed to roam wild, fights for hunting territory or mating rights among dragons might kill a few more.

There is no indication that the Targaryens left the care of their hatchlings to the dragon parents. Those were domestic animals who were fed by humans. It is only when the dragons multiply very much that some of them leave the dragon habitats at the citadel of Dragonstone and become wild. And to our knowledge those wild dragons never procreated, anyway.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

So if i remember correctly there are a dozen hatchlings in 31 AC two more in 37 AC and an other three in 51 AC so that is 17 hatchlings, however Vermithor, Dreamfyre, Silverwing and Sheepstealer would be dragons from among these 17, so we are missing 13 hatchlings and with all the dangers for a hatchling and young drake 1 in 4 surviving seems pretty reasonable to me.

There are even more than that, but we have no reason to believe they died as hatchlings.

 

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

The Targaryen's being selective is a good possibility, but i also after some further thought realized that taking a newborn hatchling from a mother dragon could actually be dangerous, even if you are the rider of said mother dragon.

Imagine this "hi my darling big-ass fire breathing lizard i'm just going to take your newborn baby okay" the dragons answer is probably going to be no, and since dragons can't talk the no would be in the form of a burst of flame burning the meat off of your bones.

This is true although it doesn’t seem to be the case that dragons guard their eggs or hatchlings. In fact we know they don’t because of eggs being placed in Targaryen’s cradles, and Aenys was given Quicksilver as a hatchling.

It seems that dragons lay eggs in the hatcheries on Dragonstone then leave them, with the Dragonkeepers caring for them from then on. If mother dragons guarded their eggs and hatchlings, we wouldn’t have Targaryens being given eggs or hatchlings due to the risk of the mother killing the Dragonkeepers or even tracking down the stolen eggs and hatchlings, posing a threat to the Targaryen  children themselves.

[direpupy]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They could all be cousins with there being no closer relation, no? Cousins as a generic term could mean they are cousins of different degree.

Seeing how they all descend from the same three dragons i guess they are all cousins in varying degree's

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not 'very doubtful', it could be an accurate description of their relation to one another.

That there cousins sure but that does not mean that Silverwing and Vermithor are not also half siblings since in the quote the Maester is trying to catch all dragon at ones in one term, that's why its a generic term in this quote.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

George doesn't like his red herrings. He rarely uses any of those.

George does not like to put the reader on the wrong foot? what books have you been reading?

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Egg introduces the older eggs from before the Dance after first speaking about his own egg and that of Aerion, indicating that they are from the clutch of the last dragon. Also, the idea that the eggs from the same clutch all look similar/the same is so far completely without basis in the text since no dragon (egg) looked alike so far.

No he doesn't he speaks of his and Aerions egg after talking about the older eggs. here is the quote from TMK

Old ones from before the Dance. My brothers all have them too. Aerion's looks as though it's made of gold and silver, with veins of fire running through it. Mine is white and green, all swirly.

There is also no evidence in the text that eggs from the same clutch all look different and there are actually several eggs that had similar coloring to other eggs or living dragons.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

All historical descriptions are vague in the sense that no living person has actually seen those dragons. Some descriptions are more detailed than others, of course, but neither FaB nor TWoIaF are dragonlore books. The only accurate descriptions of dragons and dragon eggs we have (aside from Elaena's egg which is based on the author's own description) are from the novels and novellas.

In that case they could also be wrong about the red in Balerions flames which is what you have been using ass evidence for him having red among his colors.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not out of the question but not really very likely in the case of Balerion.

Why not since there is no evidence he was anything other then black.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

While both Quicksilver and Dreamfyre hatched on Dragonstone there is no indication they spent much time there in their youth. Your idea was that dragons had problems growing very large because they didn't spend time on Dragonstone in their early years.

No i said born, i never mentioned anything about spending time anywhere, i have no idea where you got that idea from.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that the Targaryens left the care of their hatchlings to the dragon parents. Those were domestic animals who were fed by humans. It is only when the dragons multiply very much that some of them leave the dragon habitats at the citadel of Dragonstone and become wild. And to our knowledge those wild dragons never procreated, anyway.

If that's the case then you just debunked your own idea that Cannibal could have had offspring.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There are even more than that, but we have no reason to believe they died as hatchlings.

Then where did they go? What happened to them?

[direpupy]

9 minutes ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

This is true although it doesn’t seem to be the case that dragons guard their eggs or hatchlings. In fact we know they don’t because of eggs being placed in Targaryen’s cradles, and Aenys was given Quicksilver as a hatchling.

It seems that dragons lay eggs in the hatcheries on Dragonstone then leave them, with the Dragonkeepers caring for them from then on. If mother dragons guarded their eggs and hatchlings, we wouldn’t have Targaryens being given eggs or hatchlings due to the risk of the mother killing the Dragonkeepers or even tracking down the stolen eggs and hatchlings, posing a threat to the Targaryen  children themselves.

That's a good point.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

That there cousins sure but that does not mean that Silverwing and Vermithor are not also half siblings since in the quote the Maester is trying to catch all dragon at ones in one term, that's why its a generic term in this quote.

If they were, then this would have been the point in the book to mention it ... just as it could have been mentioned earlier when they were first introduced. It is just a stretch to assume that they could be. It is even a stretch to consider them second generation dragons. They could be grandchildren of Balerion, Meraxes and Vhagar.

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

George does not like to put the reader on the wrong foot? what books have you been reading?

He puts in clues who the real culprit is, but he doesn't mislead the reader into believing it is the gardener and then it turns out to be the butler without there being any buildup for that.

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

No he doesn't he speaks of his and Aerions egg after talking about the older eggs. here is the quote from TMK

Old ones from before the Dance. My brothers all have them too. Aerion's looks as though it's made of gold and silver, with veins of fire running through it. Mine is white and green, all swirly.

 

Oh, I remembered that wrong. But the most recent eggs from before the Dance would, for the most part, also eggs produced by Syrax and there is, again, no indication whatsoever that dragon eggs look alike.

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

There is also no evidence in the text that eggs from the same clutch all look different and there are actually several eggs that had similar coloring to other eggs or living dragons.

Similar in the sense that they were all colored, but no dragon egg we have a description of looks like another. People tried to make Elaena's egg Viserion's but that was complete bogus.

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

In that case they could also be wrong about the red in Balerions flames which is what you have been using ass evidence for him having red among his colors.

I could be, but that wasn't the only indication. It is both the Targaryen colors - red and black - as well as the description of the dragonfire which also fits with the link between the colors of Dany's dragons and the colors of the fire of Dany's dragons.

The difference is that we do have a rather detailed description of the destruction of Harrenhal ... but nobody ever describes any of the historical dragons in great detail. Especially not Meraxes, Vhagar, and Balerion.

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

No i said born, i never mentioned anything about spending time anywhere, i have no idea where you got that idea from.

You implied that not being born on Dragonstone could be a 'bad start' for a dragon. Birth doesn't influence growth in creatures, food and other circumstances during life do. In that sense, if dragons living predominantly living not near heat didn't grow as large as others you could have a point ... but then, there is nothing indicating that, especially not with the largest dragons who spent decades during which they continued to grow to reach their final size in KL.

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

If that's the case then you just debunked your own idea that Cannibal could have had offspring.

I don't know if the Cannibal had offspring or not, I just dismissed your idea that a cannibal dragon wouldn't have offspring or not feed on his own offspring. I don't think it makes sense to assume any of the wild dragons had offspring because nothing suggests that they did, so why bother with that question?

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

Then where did they go? What happened to them?

We just don't know.

3 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

This is true although it doesn’t seem to be the case that dragons guard their eggs or hatchlings. In fact we know they don’t because of eggs being placed in Targaryen’s cradles, and Aenys was given Quicksilver as a hatchling.

It seems that dragons lay eggs in the hatcheries on Dragonstone then leave them, with the Dragonkeepers caring for them from then on. If mother dragons guarded their eggs and hatchlings, we wouldn’t have Targaryens being given eggs or hatchlings due to the risk of the mother killing the Dragonkeepers or even tracking down the stolen eggs and hatchlings, posing a threat to the Targaryen  children themselves.

Yes, dragon eggs are definitely taken from the dragons who produce them. We also have that from the maester who sends Aegon II the seven eggs he tries to hatch.

5 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

I have previously argued in another topic that I don’t think it’s a coincidence that of all the young drakes previously unridden, Meleys and Caraxes were in the dragonpit just when Aemon and Alyssa wanted dragons. I know Alyssa initially wanted Balerion, but I think the Dragonkeepers manning the hatcheries on Dragonstone selected Caraxes and Meleys based on their distinctive red colouring, and in Meleys’ case pink and copper to boot. I know this is mostly conjecture as Caraxes and Meleys may have hatched in the Dragonpit but I think it more likely that only the more impressive dragons were transported to the dragonpit from Dragonstone to be claimed. I certainly always believed Alicent had something to do with Aegon II getting by far the most beautiful dragon, Sunfyre.

There were more young dragons besides Caraxes and Meleys in the Dragonpit when Aemon claimed his dragon:

Quote

With knighthood now achieved, the prince wasted no time becoming a dragonrider as well, ascending into the sky for the first time not long after his return to King’s Landing. His mount was blood-red Caraxes, fiercest of all the young dragons in the Dragonpit. The Dragonkeepers, who knew the denizens of the pit better than anyone, called him the Blood Wyrm.

If there were just two young dragons in the Dragonpit, then the claim about Caraxes would be meaningless. There was an unknown number of young dragons.

And it is just unclear whether anyone ever bothered shipping in young dragons from Dragonstone or whether the dragons in the Dragonpit procreated there.

5 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Also if we add Grey Ghost to the same generation as Vermithor, Dreamfyre, Silverwing and Sheepstealer than actually theres 12 drakes unaccounted for which as you say, between Cannibal and a possible hereditary illness that the dragons were suffering from (quick aside: the extinction of the dragons may not have been entirely down to the maesters, as eggs not hatching and withered hatchlings appearing suggests the dragons were already suffering) many of these drakes would likely not survive. Your point about needing a mother to care for them initially may also be true, in which case maybe the Targaryen dragons were moved around too much/ too domesticated to fulfill this role, dooming their hatchlings.

Grey Ghost was the youngest wild dragon, so he could easily enough be as young as Seasmoke or Syrax or Sunfyre.

[direpupy]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If they were, then this would have been the point in the book to mention it ... just as it could have been mentioned earlier when they were first introduced. It is just a stretch to assume that they could be. It is even a stretch to consider them second generation dragons. They could be grandchildren of Balerion, Meraxes and Vhagar.

Not really, since dragon mating is something not observed by anyone it could simply be a case of not knowing exact relations, they way its written is just a generic term saying nothing about exact relations. Probably because the Maester who wrote it did not know the exact relations.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He puts in clues who the real culprit is, but he doesn't mislead the reader into believing it is the gardener and then it turns out to be the butler without there being any buildup for that.

I think you are thinking of "straw man" not "red herring"

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I remembered that wrong. But the most recent eggs from before the Dance would, for the most part, also eggs produced by Syrax and there is, again, no indication whatsoever that dragon eggs look alike.

And there is also no indication that they don't

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Similar in the sense that they were all colored, but no dragon egg we have a description of looks like another. People tried to make Elaena's egg Viserion's but that was complete bogus.

There are several eggs with similar colors even do they are different shades of that color, for instance there are three eggs that are white and gold in color its just that one is cream-white an other is bright-white and the third is platinum-white.

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I could be, but that wasn't the only indication. It is both the Targaryen colors - red and black - as well as the description of the dragonfire which also fits with the link between the colors of Dany's dragons and the colors of the fire of Dany's dragons.

The difference is that we do have a rather detailed description of the destruction of Harrenhal ... but nobody ever describes any of the historical dragons in great detail. Especially not Meraxes, Vhagar, and Balerion.fyre.

That does not make the description of the destruction of Harrenhall reliable, and the red in the banner could also be a hint at the whole blood of the dragon thing. I'm not saying you can't be right but there simply is no irrefutable evidence for it so it can not be stated as a certainty. So i feel that for now we should work of the assumption that the description is correct, you are free to disagree off course.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You implied that not being born on Dragonstone could be a 'bad start' for a dragon. Birth doesn't influence growth in creatures, food and other circumstances during life do. In that sense, if dragons living predominantly living not near heat didn't grow as large as others you could have a point ... but then, there is nothing indicating that, especially not with the largest dragons who spent decades during which they continued to grow to reach their final size in KL.

It could be a bad start, especially considering that newborn hatchlings are weak as we see with Dany's dragons, So if they are not in a environment that would be reminiscent of the environment in which they would be born without human interference that could be a reason for stunted growth.

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't know if the Cannibal had offspring or not, I just dismissed your idea that a cannibal dragon wouldn't have offspring or not feed on his own offspring. I don't think it makes sense to assume any of the wild dragons had offspring because nothing suggests that they did, so why bother with that question?

Nothing suggests that they did not either, so its just an assumption you are making, and while i think Cannibal did not have offspring i'm not so sure about they others.

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We just don't know.

And that's why i was speculating on possible reasons.

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There were more young dragons besides Caraxes and Meleys in the Dragonpit when Aemon claimed his dragon:

If there were just two young dragons in the Dragonpit, then the claim about Caraxes would be meaningless. There was an unknown number of young dragons.

Thank you for the quote and I forgot to mention the other drakes in the dragonpit. This actually doesn’t change my point, I imagine the other young drakes in the dragonpit were also chosen based on impressive/ beautiful characteristics. Caraxes and Meleys were the ones claimed but the others may have also had desirable colours.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And it is just unclear whether anyone ever bothered shipping in young dragons from Dragonstone or whether the dragons in the Dragonpit procreated there.

You yourself often emphasise what septon Barth said about eggs needing to be near volcanoes to incubate and hatch, becoming petrified if they don’t. I agree with you on this which is why your point here about dragons procreating in the dragonpit is probably wrong. As has been mentioned by someone else (I forget who, sorry) the fact that all the hatchlings we know of were sent for from Dragonstone seems to confirm no dragons could or did hatch in the dragonpit. Jaehaerys sent for a hatchling for little Daenerys from Dragonstone, and it took too long to arrive, so if there had been hatchlings or eggs in the dragonpit he would have just used them.

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Grey Ghost was the youngest wild dragon, so he could easily enough be as young as Seasmoke or Syrax or Sunfyre.

Ah good point.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Not really, since dragon mating is something not observed by anyone it could simply be a case of not knowing exact relations, they way its written is just a generic term saying nothing about exact relations. Probably because the Maester who wrote it did not know the exact relations.

'Cousin' is too specific a term for that. If you wanted really unspecific relations you would go with kin or relations, not cousins.

2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I think you are thinking of "straw man" not "red herring"

A straw man is a fallacious argument, a red herring is a literary device used to mislead the audience about what's actually is going on. George doesn't mislead, he has secret things going on and he gives the audience clues as to what is really going on. He doesn't mislead the audience by using red herrings.

2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

And there is also no indication that they don't

If you don't have any positive evidence to show then why go on like this? The original point was your idea that dragon colors merge in their immediate offspring - if that were so, if this was intended by the author, then we should expect that many dragon eggs not just from the same clutch but produce by the same two dragons in multiple matings, etc. should look alike - just as many dragons should look alike. And that just isn't the case.

2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

There are several eggs with similar colors even do they are different shades of that color, for instance there are three eggs that are white and gold in color its just that one is cream-white an other is bright-white and the third is platinum-white.

Those are different colors. Just as lilac and violet and purple and indigo aren't the same color, either.

2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

That does not make the description of the destruction of Harrenhall reliable, and the red in the banner could also be a hint at the whole blood of the dragon thing. I'm not saying you can't be right but there simply is no irrefutable evidence for it so it can not be stated as a certainty. So i feel that for now we should work of the assumption that the description is correct, you are free to disagree off course.

I never insisted we should assume Balerion was red-and-black, I merely pointed out it could be the case and dismiss your claim we have to view him as black ... which was the basis for your mingling dragon colors idea.

2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

It could be a bad start, especially considering that newborn hatchlings are weak as we see with Dany's dragons, So if they are not in a environment that would be reminiscent of the environment in which they would be born without human interference that could be a reason for stunted growth.

But Dany's dragons grow just fine ... and they were never in a hot environment. And to be sure, dragons hatching in the Dragonpit amidst the heat emanating from the other dragons should be just as well as the mild volcanic heat of Dragonstone.

2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Nothing suggests that they did not either, so its just an assumption you are making, and while i think Cannibal did not have offspring i'm not so sure about they others.

Grey Ghost and Sheepstealer are both viewed as male ... and had nothing to do with each other whatsoever.

11 minutes ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Thank you for the quote and I forgot to mention the other drakes in the dragonpit. This actually doesn’t change my point, I imagine the other young drakes in the dragonpit were also chosen based on impressive/ beautiful characteristics. Caraxes and Meleys were the ones claimed but the others may have also had desirable colours.

Could very well be that they were moved to the Dragonpit. My point just is that we cannot pretend to know that this is the case or that no Dragonpit dragon had offspring there. I mean, take a dragon like Tessarion the Blue Queen. He was female, and thus he most likely produced eggs, possibly even living offspring. I suggested she might be the mother of Shrykos and Morghul.

We know Tessarion was bonded with Daeron as early as 120 AC, and they did not reside on Dragonstone. Meaning if Tessarion ever produced eggs she would have done that either in the Dragonpit or the Red Keep (or perhaps even Oldtown), not on Dragonstone. The same for Dreamfyre - who laid eggs on Fair Isle and if she was later the mother of Tessarion, say, then this would also have happened in KL considering she was, apparently, a Dragonpit dragon throughout.

This doesn't change the general fact that dragons are (much) more fertile on Dragonstone and that dragon eggs tend to hatch much better there. But as I said with the cradle dragons - dragons can and did also hatch in KL or even the Vale (as Morning shows).

11 minutes ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

You yourself often emphasise what septon Barth said about eggs needing to be near volcanoes to incubate and hatch, becoming petrified if they don’t. I agree with you on this which is why your point here about dragons procreating in the dragonpit is probably wrong. As has been mentioned by someone else (I forget who, sorry) the fact that all the hatchlings we know of were sent for from Dragonstone seems to confirm no dragons could or did hatch in the dragonpit. Jaehaerys sent for a hatchling for little Daenerys from Dragonstone, and it took too long to arrive, so if there had been hatchlings or eggs in the dragonpit he would have just used them.

At that point there weren't yet any dragons in the Dragonpit. But, yes, the fact that Jaehaerys had to send for a dragon to Dragonstone means Vermithor and Silverwing had not yet produced any offspring in KL. But 20-30 years later things are very different. Then there are many dragons in the Dragonpit in addition to those on Dragonstone.

The whole petrification thing doesn't seem to happen that fast - we would assume quite a few years have to pass for that to happen as the fact that Rhaena's Fair Isle eggs did hatch after they came to Dragonstone.

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Dany's dragons grow just fine ... and they were never in a hot environment. And to be sure, dragons hatching in the Dragonpit amidst the heat emanating from the other dragons should be just as well as the mild volcanic heat of Dragonstone.

Could very well be that they were moved to the Dragonpit. My point just is that we cannot pretend to know that this is the case or that no Dragonpit dragon had offspring there. I mean, take a dragon like Tessarion the Blue Queen. He was female, and thus he most likely produced eggs, possibly even living offspring. I suggested she might be the mother of Shrykos and Morghul.

Well they did spend some time in the red waste but I doubt that had any real affect on them. Although from memory Dany says they’re thriving whilst she and her Khalasaar are suffering, which may suggest the heat of the desert was good for them. 

Tessarion was probably named ‘the blue queen’ because she laid eggs like you say, which confirms she was female, but that doesn’t mean they hatched. Maybe they did, and Morghul and Shrykos are her children, but they would have been sent to the hatcheries on Dragonstone to incubate first. Female dragons can probably lay eggs anywhere but they need to be incubated on Dragonstone to become viable and not petrify. Morghul and Shrykos could also have been laid by another dragon on Dragonstone and hatched there, and been brought to the dragonpit. Come to think of it, it’s odd that Syrax wasn’t named ‘the yellow queen’ if she was known to have laid so many eggs, but that’s just an observation.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We know Tessarion was bonded with Daeron as early as 120 AC, and they did not reside on Dragonstone. Meaning if Tessarion ever produced eggs she would have done that either in the Dragonpit or the Red Keep (or perhaps even Oldtown), not on Dragonstone. The same for Dreamfyre - who laid eggs on Fair Isle and if she was later the mother of Tessarion, say, then this would also have happened in KL considering she was, apparently, a Dragonpit dragon throughout.

This doesn't change the general fact that dragons are (much) more fertile on Dragonstone and that dragon eggs tend to hatch much better there. But as I said with the cradle dragons - dragons can and did also hatch in KL or even the Vale (as Morning shows).

I always believed that dragons could lay eggs anywhere, they just wouldn’t hatch unless they incubated on Dragonstone. I don’t think adult dragons can be used as an alternative to this because surely the dragonpit would have been overpopulated within a few years or decades with the dragons reproducing inside, especially without Cannibal as population control.

Morning’s egg probably hatched because it came from Dragonstone, and besides there were no dragons in the Vale to help incubate her eggs if we consider your theory about dragons as an alternative to Dragonstone, so Morning incubated on Dragonstone and just took a while to hatch. So yes, once eggs have incubated for a decent amount of time in a volcanic environment, they can be moved anywhere and still hatch, even if it takes a while.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

At that point there weren't yet any dragons in the Dragonpit. But, yes, the fact that Jaehaerys had to send for a dragon to Dragonstone means Vermithor and Silverwing had not yet produced any offspring in KL. But 20-30 years later things are very different. Then there are many dragons in the Dragonpit in addition to those on Dragonstone.

The whole petrification thing doesn't seem to happen that fast - we would assume quite a few years have to pass for that to happen as the fact that Rhaena's Fair Isle eggs did hatch after they came to Dragonstone.

I still maintain that the many younger dragons in the dragonpit were hatched on Dragonstone and moved there. Perhaps Silverwing did lay eggs in the dragonpit, and they were taken to Dragonstone to incubate and hatch and then brought back once they did, perhaps this is how we got Caraxes and Meleys and the other young drakes that resided in the dragonpit with them.

I’m guessing the reason Elissa’s stolen eggs didn’t hatch until Dany revived them centuries later was because despite being on Dragonstone they must have been laid very recently. Septon Barth’s statement suggests that dragon eggs need a certain amount of time for incubation in a volcanic environment in order to hatch, so these three eggs probably didn’t spend long enough on Dragonstone to be viable, and thus had probably only been laid very recently by Dreamfyre.

Also, what you’ve said here about Dreamfyre’s fair isle eggs only hatching when they reach Dragonstone does contradict your theory about dragons being sufficient for egg incubation, and thus dragons being able to hatch in the dragonpit. If Dreamfyre could have incubated her eggs herself on fair isle or on the journey to Dragonstone to hatch them, why didn’t she?

The fact that Fire and Blood establishes the existence of ‘hatcheries’ on Dragonstone that were guarded by Dragonkeepers seems to confirm that dragon eggs need a volcanic environment like Dragonstone to hatch. I just personally don’t see how eggs laid in the dragonpit could hatch without 1. There being an overpopulation problem and 2. The greens having more dragons during the dance. When Aegon II wanted more dragons, he sent for more from Dragonstone. When Rhaenyra wanted more dragons, she went to Dragonstone.

I agree that we don’t know 100% for certain, but the fact that so many eggs and hatchlings are stated to have come from Dragonstone and the existence of hatcheries there confirm that Dragonstone was needed for eggs to hatch in my mind.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Well they did spend some time in the red waste but I doubt that had any real affect on them. Although from memory Dany says they’re thriving whilst she and her Khalasaar are suffering, which may suggest the heat of the desert was good for them. 

That would be another kind of heat, I guess. Sunny days and the like should also be prevalent in Westeros, and the idea isn't exactly that dragons thrive in Dorne, say, but rather on Dragonstone because of its volcano.

4 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Tessarion was probably named ‘the blue queen’ because she laid eggs like you say, which confirms she was female, but that doesn’t mean they hatched. Maybe they did, and Morghul and Shrykos are her children, but they would have been sent to the hatcheries on Dragonstone to incubate first. Female dragons can probably lay eggs anywhere but they need to be incubated on Dragonstone to become viable and not petrify. Morghul and Shrykos could also have been laid by another dragon on Dragonstone and hatched there, and been brought to the dragonpit. Come to think of it, it’s odd that Syrax wasn’t named ‘the yellow queen’ if she was known to have laid so many eggs, but that’s just an observation.

The only thing we know is that dragons eggs tend to hatch on Dragonstone more often than elsewhere ... but this doesn't mean they don't hatch elsewhere or that they have to be some time on Dragonstone.

The only thing we know for sure is that if they are permanently moved from a Dragonstone-like environment they eventually petrify and are no longer viable. Eggs on Dragonstone may yet hatch after years or decades, I imagine - part of the reason why there are lots of dragon eggs around on Dragonstone even after the dragons died out (and even before that, at the end of the Dance, there are lots of dragon eggs available for Aegon II as the seven eggs the maester sends to KL show - whereas they would not be viable as long in another environment.

The idea that they have to be incubated there isn't something that's implied by the text.

4 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

I always believed that dragons could lay eggs anywhere, they just wouldn’t hatch unless they incubated on Dragonstone. I don’t think adult dragons can be used as an alternative to this because surely the dragonpit would have been overpopulated within a few years or decades with the dragons reproducing inside, especially without Cannibal as population control.

Think about the number of the eggs the Targaryens still have after the dragons are gone. The way it looks only a somewhat tiny percentage - a tenth, say - of the total amount of dragon eggs produced actually hatched. The others seem to have never hatched.

4 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Morning’s egg probably hatched because it came from Dragonstone, and besides there were no dragons in the Vale to help incubate her eggs if we consider your theory about dragons as an alternative to Dragonstone, so Morning incubated on Dragonstone and just took a while to hatch. So yes, once eggs have incubated for a decent amount of time in a volcanic environment, they can be moved anywhere and still hatch, even if it takes a while.

There is also a chance there that being close to a Targaryen also helped hatching the eggs. Not only the later Targaryens treated their eggs in a somewhat strange manner ... Rhaena prayed over her eggs, and Aegon II apparently tried to incubate his. Viserys II also had a close bond with his dragon egg.

And the way people interpreted things was apparently also that putting dragon eggs in the cradles of princes and princesses also helped hatching them ... or at least did not hinder the process.

4 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

I still maintain that the many younger dragons in the dragonpit were hatched on Dragonstone and moved there. Perhaps Silverwing did lay eggs in the dragonpit, and they were taken to Dragonstone to incubate and hatch and then brought back once they did, perhaps this is how we got Caraxes and Meleys and the other young drakes that resided in the dragonpit with them.

Silverwing and Vermithor were never Dragonpit dragons. Jaehaerys I kept both dragons in the Red Keep.

4 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

I’m guessing the reason Elissa’s stolen eggs didn’t hatch until Dany revived them centuries later was because despite being on Dragonstone they must have been laid very recently. Septon Barth’s statement suggests that dragon eggs need a certain amount of time for incubation in a volcanic environment in order to hatch, so these three eggs probably didn’t spend long enough on Dragonstone to be viable, and thus had probably only been laid very recently by Dreamfyre.

No, there the indication is different - that the longer such eggs are away from a place like Dragonstone the smaller the chance that they will hatch eventually. But back when Jaehaerys I threatens Braavos there is still a good chance that they might hatch eventually.

Also, considering that they talk about those eggs as 'stones' chances are also pretty good that Elissa Farman didn't steal fresh dragon eggs.

4 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Also, what you’ve said here about Dreamfyre’s fair isle eggs only hatching when they reach Dragonstone does contradict your theory about dragons being sufficient for egg incubation, and thus dragons being able to hatch in the dragonpit. If Dreamfyre could have incubated her eggs herself on fair isle or on the journey to Dragonstone to hatch them, why didn’t she?

Well, perhaps because Rhaena took the dragons from her? My idea about semi-wild dragon procreation - meaning dragons procreating while the Targaryens had no need to take the eggs from them because they had no children (like the reign of Maegor, say, the early reign of Jaehaerys I, etc.) - would be that a dragon in the Dragonpit or on Dragonstone produced a clutch of eggs and they hatched without anyone noticing it ... or at least without interfering. That way the dragons in the Dragonpit could have multiplied without outside interference - like they did, for the most part, on Dragonstone.

4 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

The fact that Fire and Blood establishes the existence of ‘hatcheries’ on Dragonstone that were guarded by Dragonkeepers seems to confirm that dragon eggs need a volcanic environment like Dragonstone to hatch. I just personally don’t see how eggs laid in the dragonpit could hatch without 1. There being an overpopulation problem and 2. The greens having more dragons during the dance. When Aegon II wanted more dragons, he sent for more from Dragonstone. When Rhaenyra wanted more dragons, she went to Dragonstone.

I'd imagine those hatcheries are just the places where the dragons make their nests, produce eggs, and where the eggs were kept. We really have no idea where or what kind of environments those 'dragon yards' and 'dragon pits' on Dragonstone were. Hopefully somebody visits those places in the future, but chances are that some of those places were visited by Stannis and Melisandre in ASoS when Stannis was sulking.

[direpupy]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

'Cousin' is too specific a term for that. If you wanted really unspecific relations you would go with kin or relations, not cousins.

A straw man is a fallacious argument, a red herring is a literary device used to mislead the audience about what's actually is going on. George doesn't mislead, he has secret things going on and he gives the audience clues as to what is really going on. He doesn't mislead the audience by using red herrings.

If you don't have any positive evidence to show then why go on like this? The original point was your idea that dragon colors merge in their immediate offspring - if that were so, if this was intended by the author, then we should expect that many dragon eggs not just from the same clutch but produce by the same two dragons in multiple matings, etc. should look alike - just as many dragons should look alike. And that just isn't the case.

Those are different colors. Just as lilac and violet and purple and indigo aren't the same color, either.

I never insisted we should assume Balerion was red-and-black, I merely pointed out it could be the case and dismiss your claim we have to view him as black ... which was the basis for your mingling dragon colors idea.

But Dany's dragons grow just fine ... and they were never in a hot environment. And to be sure, dragons hatching in the Dragonpit amidst the heat emanating from the other dragons should be just as well as the mild volcanic heat of Dragonstone.

Grey Ghost and Sheepstealer are both viewed as male ... and had nothing to do with each other whatsoever.

Could very well be that they were moved to the Dragonpit. My point just is that we cannot pretend to know that this is the case or that no Dragonpit dragon had offspring there. I mean, take a dragon like Tessarion the Blue Queen. He was female, and thus he most likely produced eggs, possibly even living offspring. I suggested she might be the mother of Shrykos and Morghul.

We know Tessarion was bonded with Daeron as early as 120 AC, and they did not reside on Dragonstone. Meaning if Tessarion ever produced eggs she would have done that either in the Dragonpit or the Red Keep (or perhaps even Oldtown), not on Dragonstone. The same for Dreamfyre - who laid eggs on Fair Isle and if she was later the mother of Tessarion, say, then this would also have happened in KL considering she was, apparently, a Dragonpit dragon throughout.

This doesn't change the general fact that dragons are (much) more fertile on Dragonstone and that dragon eggs tend to hatch much better there. But as I said with the cradle dragons - dragons can and did also hatch in KL or even the Vale (as Morning shows).

At that point there weren't yet any dragons in the Dragonpit. But, yes, the fact that Jaehaerys had to send for a dragon to Dragonstone means Vermithor and Silverwing had not yet produced any offspring in KL. But 20-30 years later things are very different. Then there are many dragons in the Dragonpit in addition to those on Dragonstone.

The whole petrification thing doesn't seem to happen that fast - we would assume quite a few years have to pass for that to happen as the fact that Rhaena's Fair Isle eggs did hatch after they came to Dragonstone.

At this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree because i literally agree with almost nothing you say, now i could be wrong sure, but really you have provided no absolute or compelling evidence that i'm not, just your own theory's that are different from mine.

[The hairy bear]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

a red herring is a literary device used to mislead the audience about what's actually is going on. George doesn't mislead, he has secret things going on and he gives the audience clues as to what is really going on. He doesn't mislead the audience by using red herrings.

Not willing to derail this interesting thread, but I've heard George himself talking about how he likes to introduce Red Herrings in his story. I don't quite recall the particulars, but I think he was discussing the first book misleading clues about the murder of Jon Arryn: George Clegane killing Hugh of the Vale, Robert asking Tywin to foster Sweetrobin...

He has also discussed about him using red herrings in other cons or interviews.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, direpupy said:

At this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree because i literally agree with almost nothing you say, now i could be wrong sure, but really you have provided no absolute or compelling evidence that i'm not, just your own theory's that are different from mine.

You are the one who usually insist to discuss everything until it is dead.

7 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Not willing to derail this interesting thread, but I've heard George himself talking about how he likes to introduce Red Herrings in his story. I don't quite recall the particulars, but I think he was discussing the first book misleading clues about the murder of Jon Arryn: George Clegane killing Hugh of the Vale, Robert asking Tywin to foster Sweetrobin...

He has also discussed about him using red herrings in other cons or interviews.

I'd not count the stuff around Jon Arryn as red herrings. Cersei and the Lannisters in general do have a real motive to murder the man - the twincest. And this also gives them a motive to murder Ser Hugh of the Vale who could have known what Jon Arryn knew. It is actually still possible Gregor Clegane killed the guy acting on Cersei's orders. Tywin fostering Lord Robert was also a way to silence Lysa ... who Cersei also suspected may have known what her husband may have known. Those clues do point to a real truth - the twincest - and also to a real motive for a murder.

The crucial thing in that case is that the truth is always there. And the clues that Lysa had a very real motive to murder her husband are there since AGoT, too.

He talks about red herrings in relation to AFfC/ADwD - meaning rumors and news heard in KL in AFfC about what's going on in the North may turn out not to be true (like the Davos thing or later in ADwD the Pink Letter). But those aren't really red herrings, just claims neither the reader nor the characters in question can double-check.

A proper red herring is something that misleads the reader on a different level, it is an information you actually believe.

In that sense, I think, Lysa's letter can qualify as a red herring, but it is more directed at Cat and Ned and not the reader - who gets enough pieces of the puzzle in AGoT to figure out who actually killed Jon Arryn.

[direpupy]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You are the one who usually insist to discuss everything until it is dead.

We all live and learn and i have learned to recognize when a discussion is going nowhere and its time to admit that neither party is going to convince they other.

[Lord Varys]

Addendum:

George also talks about 'red herrings' in relation to FaB. But there are no proper red herrings in that book, either, since the history has pretty much nothing to do with the plot of ASoIaF. We don't have any direct connection between the plots of those two books. At best there are some parallels and very loose connections:

Elissa's eggs could be Dany's eggs - or not. Alyssa's mismatched eyes could be a hint to Tyrion's true parentage - or not. Larys Strong being very much a Varys-like character could foreshadow something about Varys (like Varys returning from the tunnels and taking up his seat on the council of Aegon VI as if nothing had happened) - or not. Aerea's story could be effectively a confirmation that Euron Greyjoy was never in Valyria - or not. Rhaenyra's elder sons are somewhat of a parallel to Cersei's three children, just as Alys Rivers' son is very much remiscent of Jon Snow, especially with the involved Harrenhal connection.