Vhagar's color

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

On 1/28/2021 at 4:50 AM, Lord Varys said:

The only thing we know is that dragons eggs tend to hatch on Dragonstone more often than elsewhere ... but this doesn't mean they don't hatch elsewhere or that they have to be some time on Dragonstone.

The only thing we know for sure is that if they are permanently moved from a Dragonstone-like environment they eventually petrify and are no longer viable. Eggs on Dragonstone may yet hatch after years or decades, I imagine - part of the reason why there are lots of dragon eggs around on Dragonstone even after the dragons died out (and even before that, at the end of the Dance, there are lots of dragon eggs available for Aegon II as the seven eggs the maester sends to KL show - whereas they would not be viable as long in another environment.

The idea that they have to be incubated there isn't something that's implied by the text.

Yes, it is. Both the existence of ‘hatcheries’ and Septon Barth’s statement, if it can be trusted, tell us this.

If we accept that dragon eggs petrify if taken away from a Dragonstone-esque environment, then the logical conclusion here is that dragon eggs need these environments to be alive/ viable. If Dragon eggs can be hatched or viable anywhere, then Septon Barth’s statement becomes redundant, and Jaehaerys has every reason to fear a foreign power controlling dragons. Any eggs ever laid anywhere are potentially viable and could hatch at any moment. This can’t be the case given how few eggs actually hatch, as you point out.

Any female dragon can lay eggs anywhere. MAYBE dragons act as substitutes for Dragonstone, and can incubate their own eggs and keep them viable until they hatch. This I’m willing to accept as it explains both why drakes in the dragonpit could have hatched there whilst also explaining that hatching eggs is still a somewhat difficult process. Plus, this fits with what Barth said because the only dragons alive at that time where on Dragonstone or in kings landing, so any eggs taken to Volantis would have no volcano or dragons to hatch from.

The key here is that IF what Barth says is true, that eggs turn to stone if taken away from volcanic environments, then this must mean that eggs NEED volcanic environments to not turn to stone, and thus hatch. Maybe other dragons work just as well, but then again maybe not.

Of course, if eggs can be hatched either in volcanic environments or by being near dragons, then this gives pretty much any egg a good chance of hatching given how readily available one or both of these would be, and would imply that since we have so many eggs that didn’t hatch as you point out, dragons must have a low hatching success/ survival rate.

On 1/28/2021 at 4:50 AM, Lord Varys said:

Think about the number of the eggs the Targaryens still have after the dragons are gone. The way it looks only a somewhat tiny percentage - a tenth, say - of the total amount of dragon eggs produced actually hatched. The others seem to have never hatched.

There is also a chance there that being close to a Targaryen also helped hatching the eggs. Not only the later Targaryens treated their eggs in a somewhat strange manner ... Rhaena prayed over her eggs, and Aegon II apparently tried to incubate his. Viserys II also had a close bond with his dragon egg.

And the way people interpreted things was apparently also that putting dragon eggs in the cradles of princes and princesses also helped hatching them ... or at least did not hinder the process.

I would say that dragons appear to have a low success rate with hatching in general. You’re right, between all the eggs left over and the fact that Morning was the only egg of the three eggs Rhaena took to the Vale to hatch suggests dragons lay lots of eggs as a counter measure to their low success rate.

Its possible eggs are incubated/ kept viable by proximity to Targaryens but then we get into ‘Targaryens hatch eggs’ and, thanks to Preston Jacobs, the ‘Rhaenyra is special because she can hatch and ride dragons’ rhetoric, which we now know is wrong anyway. I think eggs were placed in cradles to create a bond between the hatchling and the baby, namely imprinting, so that the dragon would be more willing to allow their rider to eventually mount them and form a proper, magical bond. Basically it’s an insurance policy for guaranteed dragon riding that seems to have worked in all cases, the only exception being Viserys II because his egg was petrified and little Leana because her hatchling was deformed.

Rhaena prayed because she desperately wanted a dragon to match her sister’s, Aegon II was probably mad and delirious by that point not to mention desperate to replace Sunfyre (If he even sat on it at all, I don’t really trust Mushroom’s testimony). Viserys probably just liked his egg and was still hoping it would hatch.

On 1/28/2021 at 4:50 AM, Lord Varys said:

Silverwing and Vermithor were never Dragonpit dragons. Jaehaerys I kept both dragons in the Red Keep.

No, there the indication is different - that the longer such eggs are away from a place like Dragonstone the smaller the chance that they will hatch eventually. But back when Jaehaerys I threatens Braavos there is still a good chance that they might hatch eventually.

Also, considering that they talk about those eggs as 'stones' chances are also pretty good that Elissa Farman didn't steal fresh dragon eggs.

Ah yes I forgot, regardless Meleys and Caraxes and the other drakes in the dragonpit could still be their offspring.

I agree that they could have still hatched eventually, but the key is that this was because they had been on Dragonstone. Eggs on Dragonstone= A chance of hatching but not guaranteed (we know many eggs on Dragonstone still turned to stone), Eggs away from Dragonstone= eventually turn to stone, won’t hatch. What Barth tells us confirms this and suggests that eggs need to remain on Dragonstone to stand a chance of hatching, and even then they can still petrify. The amount of time it takes to hatch seems to vary between eggs, if they ever do, but Dragonstone is a necessary requirement for hatching.

Presumably we can say given how Syrax provided clutches that were quite successful, that the more recently the eggs are laid on Dragonstone the better chance they have of hatching, but even then not all do.

Perhaps that’s what they mean, or they’re just calling them stones due to their appearance. I thought the eggs she stole were recently laid by Dreamfyre but I can’t remember for certain.

On 1/28/2021 at 4:50 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, perhaps because Rhaena took the dragons from her? My idea about semi-wild dragon procreation - meaning dragons procreating while the Targaryens had no need to take the eggs from them because they had no children (like the reign of Maegor, say, the early reign of Jaehaerys I, etc.) - would be that a dragon in the Dragonpit or on Dragonstone produced a clutch of eggs and they hatched without anyone noticing it ... or at least without interfering. That way the dragons in the Dragonpit could have multiplied without outside interference - like they did, for the most part, on Dragonstone.

This could very much be true. I’m certainly not ruling out the idea of dragons incubating their own eggs in the absence of a volcanic environment, so you could be right and this could be where the drakes in the dragonpit came from.

On 1/28/2021 at 4:50 AM, Lord Varys said:

I'd imagine those hatcheries are just the places where the dragons make their nests, produce eggs, and where the eggs were kept. We really have no idea where or what kind of environments those 'dragon yards' and 'dragon pits' on Dragonstone were. Hopefully somebody visits those places in the future, but chances are that some of those places were visited by Stannis and Melisandre in ASoS when Stannis was sulking.

Well the fact that they were called ‘hatcheries’ would imply that they were used expressly for that purpose. The Dragonkeepers guarded the hatcheries, and thus were able to send eggs and hatchlings to KL when the Targaryens wanted them, I.e. Quicksilver, little Daenerys’ potential hatchling, Aegon II’s eggs etc. Plus when we get dates that dragons hatch in the Aenys and Maegor chapters, they all hatch on Dragonstone. 

I doubt they were dragon ‘nests’, in that adult dragons lived in them permanently, because that would be too dangerous/ risky for the Dragonkeepers. The adults seemed to make their own ‘lairs’ in other caves around the volcano. Perhaps they did lay the eggs in the hatcheries which were probably ideal spaces for incubation, but they seem to abandon them immediately. The dragons were presumably accustomed to the presence of the Dragonkeepers. Perhaps the dragons laid eggs anywhere on the island and the Dragonkeepers collected them as, like I say, the dragons don’t seem to guard them at all.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Yes, it is. Both the existence of ‘hatcheries’ and Septon Barth’s statement, if it can be trusted, tell us this.

If we accept that dragon eggs petrify if taken away from a Dragonstone-esque environment, then the logical conclusion here is that dragon eggs need these environments to be alive/ viable. If Dragon eggs can be hatched or viable anywhere, then Septon Barth’s statement becomes redundant, and Jaehaerys has every reason to fear a foreign power controlling dragons. Any eggs ever laid anywhere are potentially viable and could hatch at any moment. This can’t be the case given how few eggs actually hatch, as you point out.

No, the idea is just that being on Dragonstone mean they are longer viable, not that they can only hatch in such an environment or have to have been there for a time to be viable.

But it is clear that such an environment makes dragons more fertile. Perhaps one or two of Dreamfyre's eggs would have also hatched on Fair Isle ... but on Dragonstone all her eggs hatched. On Dragonstone dragons thrive and multiply unlike any other place in Westeros. But this doesn't mean they are completely lost anywhere else.

5 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

The key here is that IF what Barth says is true, that eggs turn to stone if taken away from volcanic environments, then this must mean that eggs NEED volcanic environments to not turn to stone, and thus hatch. Maybe other dragons work just as well, but then again maybe not.

As per TWoIaF Aerys II also found dragon eggs on Dragonstone which were so old that they had turned to stone. Meaning that eventually all dragon eggs may suffer that fate, regardless how low they were kept in Dragonstone or Valyria or another volcanic environment. But such an environment seems to slow down the process, keeping the dragon eggs longer viable and increasing the likelihood that they will hatch.

5 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Its possible eggs are incubated/ kept viable by proximity to Targaryens but then we get into ‘Targaryens hatch eggs’ and, thanks to Preston Jacobs, the ‘Rhaenyra is special because she can hatch and ride dragons’ rhetoric, which we now know is wrong anyway. I think eggs were placed in cradles to create a bond between the hatchling and the baby, namely imprinting, so that the dragon would be more willing to allow their rider to eventually mount them and form a proper, magical bond. Basically it’s an insurance policy for guaranteed dragon riding that seems to have worked in all cases, the only exception being Viserys II because his egg was petrified and little Leana because her hatchling was deformed.

Of course, the whole cradle thing also helps the future rider to bond with the dragon ... but the dragon first has to hatch, and quite a few cradle eggs seemed to have hatched in KL - Vermax and Arrax and Tessarion (if she was a cradle egg dragon), and Shrykos and Morghul as well.

And the eggs of Vermax and Arrax could even have been produced in KL since Rhaenyra lived permanently in the Red Keep at that time. She only moved permanently to Dragonstone after the birth of Luke. And although Gyldayn sort of summarizes the Velaryon boys getting their dragon eggs, it makes no sense for Jace and Luke getting eggs in their cradles after Joffrey had been born in 117 AC, so we would have to assume that Viserys I gave them each a dragon egg shortly after their birth.

Oh, and by the way, I misremembered that it was explicit that Syrax is the mother of the dragons of Rhaenyra's and Daemon's children. But it is implied when it is stated that Syrax had recently produced another clutch from which Rhaena's second dragon egg came from. That implies that Rhaena's original egg and Moondancer's eggs came from an earlier clutch of Syrax's.

One would also assume that's where the eggs for Rhaenyra's sons came from (especially Aegon's and Viserys') but since they were given eggs at royal command Viserys I could have chosen eggs from another dragon. We really don't know for sure.

5 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Rhaena prayed because she desperately wanted a dragon to match her sister’s, Aegon II was probably mad and delirious by that point not to mention desperate to replace Sunfyre (If he even sat on it at all, I don’t really trust Mushroom’s testimony). Viserys probably just liked his egg and was still hoping it would hatch.

We don't really know, but what that implies is that the Targaryens definitely thought they themselves were sort of important or relevant or whatnot for dragon eggs to hatch. Or that they at least could influence the process somehow.

5 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Perhaps that’s what they mean, or they’re just calling them stones due to their appearance. I thought the eggs she stole were recently laid by Dreamfyre but I can’t remember for certain.

No, we just know that she stole some dragon eggs. It isn't even clear whether they were Dreamfyre's. Could have been from any dragon living on Dragonstone at that time ... or rather from any dragon living in the dragon yards of Dragonstone.

5 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Well the fact that they were called ‘hatcheries’ would imply that they were used expressly for that purpose. The Dragonkeepers guarded the hatcheries, and thus were able to send eggs and hatchlings to KL when the Targaryens wanted them, I.e. Quicksilver, little Daenerys’ potential hatchling, Aegon II’s eggs etc. Plus when we get dates that dragons hatch in the Aenys and Maegor chapters, they all hatch on Dragonstone. 

What the example of Elissa's theft shows is that dragon eggs were kept on the dragon premises, so those hatcheries seem to be dragon environments in general - of course, when Aegon II called for dragon eggs there were no longer any dragons on Dragonstone, but back during Rhaena's days having access to dragon eggs was the same as having access to dragons.

In that sense, those eggs could actually have been with the dragons who produced them.

5 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

I doubt they were dragon ‘nests’, in that adult dragons lived in them permanently, because that would be too dangerous/ risky for the Dragonkeepers. The adults seemed to make their own ‘lairs’ in other caves around the volcano. Perhaps they did lay the eggs in the hatcheries which were probably ideal spaces for incubation, but they seem to abandon them immediately. The dragons were presumably accustomed to the presence of the Dragonkeepers. Perhaps the dragons laid eggs anywhere on the island and the Dragonkeepers collected them as, like I say, the dragons don’t seem to guard them at all.

Oh, I just assumed that dragons sort of visibly laid their eggs in a nest. Whether they then spent time there or whether they abandoned those eggs is completely unclear. But it wouldn't make sense that a dragon just laid eggs on the ground somewhere and then walked or flew off.

Although there certainly must have some modus vivendi between the domesticated dragons of the Valyrians and the people who took care of them, allowing those people to take possession of dragon eggs and hatchlings. One imagines that whatever the natural instincts of a dragons are in the nursing department they are somewhat different with domesticated dragons.

Dany's dragon indicate that hatchlings cannot feed themselves on their own after they hatch. They are self-sufficient very quickly - as soon as they can properly breathe fire and fly - but they did need some care for a short time after they hatched. And in the wild parent dragons would have to provide that.

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

On 1/29/2021 at 11:33 PM, Lord Varys said:

No, the idea is just that being on Dragonstone mean they are longer viable, not that they can only hatch in such an environment or have to have been there for a time to be viable.

But it is clear that such an environment makes dragons more fertile. Perhaps one or two of Dreamfyre's eggs would have also hatched on Fair Isle ... but on Dragonstone all her eggs hatched. On Dragonstone dragons thrive and multiply unlike any other place in Westeros. But this doesn't mean they are completely lost anywhere else.

I see your point, perhaps I interpreted Barth’s statement too literally. At the very least the eggs do seem to require heat/ proximity to a heat source, whether it’s a volcano, a dragon or a person (maybe Aegon II was on to something when he sat on his egg XD).

On 1/29/2021 at 11:33 PM, Lord Varys said:

As per TWoIaF Aerys II also found dragon eggs on Dragonstone which were so old that they had turned to stone. Meaning that eventually all dragon eggs may suffer that fate, regardless how low they were kept in Dragonstone or Valyria or another volcanic environment. But such an environment seems to slow down the process, keeping the dragon eggs longer viable and increasing the likelihood that they will hatch.

Of course, the whole cradle thing also helps the future rider to bond with the dragon ... but the dragon first has to hatch, and quite a few cradle eggs seemed to have hatched in KL - Vermax and Arrax and Tessarion (if she was a cradle egg dragon), and Shrykos and Morghul as well.

And the eggs of Vermax and Arrax could even have been produced in KL since Rhaenyra lived permanently in the Red Keep at that time. She only moved permanently to Dragonstone after the birth of Luke. And although Gyldayn sort of summarizes the Velaryon boys getting their dragon eggs, it makes no sense for Jace and Luke getting eggs in their cradles after Joffrey had been born in 117 AC, so we would have to assume that Viserys I gave them each a dragon egg shortly after their birth.

Agreed, cradle eggs certainly seem to be viable and hatch mainly because of being recently laid/ placed in proximity to a Targaryen.

On 1/29/2021 at 11:33 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, and by the way, I misremembered that it was explicit that Syrax is the mother of the dragons of Rhaenyra's and Daemon's children. But it is implied when it is stated that Syrax had recently produced another clutch from which Rhaena's second dragon egg came from. That implies that Rhaena's original egg and Moondancer's eggs came from an earlier clutch of Syrax's.

One would also assume that's where the eggs for Rhaenyra's sons came from (especially Aegon's and Viserys') but since they were given eggs at royal command Viserys I could have chosen eggs from another dragon. We really don't know for sure.

We don't really know, but what that implies is that the Targaryens definitely thought they themselves were sort of important or relevant or whatnot for dragon eggs to hatch. Or that they at least could influence the process somehow.

No, we just know that she stole some dragon eggs. It isn't even clear whether they were Dreamfyre's. Could have been from any dragon living on Dragonstone at that time ... or rather from any dragon living in the dragon yards of Dragonstone.

What the example of Elissa's theft shows is that dragon eggs were kept on the dragon premises, so those hatcheries seem to be dragon environments in general - of course, when Aegon II called for dragon eggs there were no longer any dragons on Dragonstone, but back during Rhaena's days having access to dragon eggs was the same as having access to dragons.

In that sense, those eggs could actually have been with the dragons who produced them.

A lot of the younger dragons during the dance probably were laid by Syrax as you say. And yes, the Targaryens seemed to believe they could influence the success of an egg hatching but it seems to be pretty standard stuff for eggs of any species to be honest. Warm environment/ proximity to a warm, living creature, be-it human or dragon. In Rhaena’s case she just really wanted a dragon so she prayed for one.  Praying near the eggs probably didn’t do anything to actually help them incubate/ remain viable but Morning did eventually hatch, so make of that what you will.

As for Elissa and the stolen eggs, I agree. Dragons probably did remain in or near the hatcheries and Jaehaerys had them manned by Dragonkeepers, who as you say the dragons were probably used to. All of this considered, it’s impressive Elissa managed to steal any eggs at all.

On 1/29/2021 at 11:33 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I just assumed that dragons sort of visibly laid their eggs in a nest. Whether they then spent time there or whether they abandoned those eggs is completely unclear. But it wouldn't make sense that a dragon just laid eggs on the ground somewhere and then walked or flew off.

Although there certainly must have some modus vivendi between the domesticated dragons of the Valyrians and the people who took care of them, allowing those people to take possession of dragon eggs and hatchlings. One imagines that whatever the natural instincts of a dragons are in the nursing department they are somewhat different with domesticated dragons.

Dany's dragon indicate that hatchlings cannot feed themselves on their own after they hatch. They are self-sufficient very quickly - as soon as they can properly breathe fire and fly - but they did need some care for a short time after they hatched. And in the wild parent dragons would have to provide that.

Ah ok so I agree that Dragons probably laid eggs in the hatcheries, probably because of their ideal location.

I also agree with you, the behaviour of domesticated dragons compared to wild ones seems to be very different. Domesticated dragons seem to be perfectly happy for their eggs and hatchlings to be taken, and didn’t bother about feeding them or giving them milk first. Thus, the Targaryens must have known to feed their hatchlings and give them milk somehow.

Morning for example was never cared for by an adult dragon, so Rhaena must have done what Dany did, although perhaps she just gave Morning cows milk or something, I think Dany’s approach was rather unique. But then again who knows. 

Perhaps wild dragons are more protective of their young and raise them with milk and bring them food. There do seem to be exceptions, case in point- the Cannibal. You could argue he never ate his own hatchlings, only those of other dragons, but it’s hard to imagine him being a nurturing parent to any hatchlings, even his own.

[direpupy]

16 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

I also agree with you, the behaviour of domesticated dragons compared to wild ones seems to be very different. Domesticated dragons seem to be perfectly happy for their eggs and hatchlings to be taken, and didn’t bother about feeding them or giving them milk first. Thus, the Targaryens must have known to feed their hatchlings and give them milk somehow.

Morning for example was never cared for by an adult dragon, so Rhaena must have done what Dany did, although perhaps she just gave Morning cows milk or something, I think Dany’s approach was rather unique. But then again who knows. 

Perhaps wild dragons are more protective of their young and raise them with milk and bring them food. There do seem to be exceptions, case in point- the Cannibal. You could argue he never ate his own hatchlings, only those of other dragons, but it’s hard to imagine him being a nurturing parent to any hatchlings, even his own.

I'm not to sure about the milk thing, i know they drank milk from dany's breasts right after hatching but in her first chapter in Clash which takes place pretty much the day after the dragons hatched she is already feeding them meat. So dragons drinking milk seems more like a one off and not something that is normal to them. I could be wrong but since we never hear off dragons drinking milk beyond this one time and a dragons sex is notoriously difficult to tell where nipples would be a dead give away off a female, i would say they evidence we have now is stacked against it.

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

4 hours ago, direpupy said:

I'm not to sure about the milk thing, i know they drank milk from dany's breasts right after hatching but in her first chapter in Clash which takes place pretty much the day after the dragons hatched she is already feeding them meat. So dragons drinking milk seems more like a one off and not something that is normal to them. I could be wrong but since we never hear off dragons drinking milk beyond this one time and a dragons sex is notoriously difficult to tell where nipples would be a dead give away off a female, i would say they evidence we have now is stacked against it.

To be fair I quite agree, this was speculation on my part because what Dany did with her dragons (breastfeeding) seems very odd and one off as you say. There’s no mention of historical dragons needing this. I was guessing they did based off of Dany as an example. Although she doesn’t actually know much about dragons so she was probably just guessing.

Maybe they only really need meat, but Dany breastfeeding them helped strengthen their bond with her as their mother.

You’re right though, dragons breastfeeding their hatchlings would be very noticeable, so for now I think we can assume they didn’t do it.

[Lord Varys]

22 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

I see your point, perhaps I interpreted Barth’s statement too literally. At the very least the eggs do seem to require heat/ proximity to a heat source, whether it’s a volcano, a dragon or a person (maybe Aegon II was on to something when he sat on his egg XD).

I'd not even say they need this heat source to hatch - just that it is very beneficial for them if they do. Nobody ever said dragons cannot thrive in a non-volcanic environment - what's said is that they really do thrive in such an environment.

What we can say is that they do have considerable problems in cold environments like the North, especially in winter.

22 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Agreed, cradle eggs certainly seem to be viable and hatch mainly because of being recently laid/ placed in proximity to a Targaryen.

Oh, we don't even know that as such - I'd say people seem to believe that there might be 'a Targaryen/dragonlord factor' there. Whether that's actually true is unclear.

It could be that it does help a dragon to hatch if they are close to 'the blood of the dragon' ... or not. And if we think about their general affinity for each other or the special case of Daenerys - who could actually *feel* that there was still something there in the dragon eggs she got she could hatch magically - then this doesn't sound unreasonable.

But we really have no idea how this thing works.

22 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

A lot of the younger dragons during the dance probably were laid by Syrax as you say. And yes, the Targaryens seemed to believe they could influence the success of an egg hatching but it seems to be pretty standard stuff for eggs of any species to be honest. Warm environment/ proximity to a warm, living creature, be-it human or dragon. In Rhaena’s case she just really wanted a dragon so she prayed for one.  Praying near the eggs probably didn’t do anything to actually help them incubate/ remain viable but Morning did eventually hatch, so make of that what you will.

Thinking about that - we don't really know whether we talk about 'natural heat' or 'magical heat' in this context. How hot is it in those dragon yards and pits on Dragonstone? How close are they to the inner fires of the Dragonmount? We don't really know. It might be that the dragons do have a magical affinity to other natural heat sources and that being close to them helps them.

22 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

As for Elissa and the stolen eggs, I agree. Dragons probably did remain in or near the hatcheries and Jaehaerys had them manned by Dragonkeepers, who as you say the dragons were probably used to. All of this considered, it’s impressive Elissa managed to steal any eggs at all.

The dragonkeepers were formed only later, unless I'm misremembering. While Rhaena ran Dragonstone there wasn't yet a special order of knights formed to protect the dragons.

As for the milk issue:

I doubt that's standard procedure - it is rather an odd detail marking out Dany as 'the Mother of Dragons'. I'd expect dragon hatchlings to be first fed with cooked meat the way Dany does it. And if Dany's dragons are any indication then in the wild the parent dragon(s) would have to provide their offspring with charred meat because they cannot hunt for that on their own in the first days and weeks after they hatch.

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd not even say they need this heat source to hatch - just that it is very beneficial for them if they do. Nobody ever said dragons cannot thrive in a non-volcanic environment - what's said is that they really do thrive in such an environment.

What we can say is that they do have considerable problems in cold environments like the North, especially in winter.

This is very possible, I agree. My main logic was based on Barth’s statement, which suggests dragon eggs are only viable in certain locations or conditions and will petrify if removed from them. This is still possible but we don’t know enough to say for sure.

I agree it’s equally possible that dragon eggs can just hatch with no special conditions needed, and Barth’s statement was just telling us that eggs remain viable longer on Dragonstone and thus could petrify after a while if they don’t hatch.

Actually, if memory serves he says ‘some eggs simply turn to stone’, which may prove that it’s not an exact science and he’s really just making an educated guess/ trying to reassure Jaehaerys.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, we don't even know that as such - I'd say people seem to believe that there might be 'a Targaryen/dragonlord factor' there. Whether that's actually true is unclear.

It could be that it does help a dragon to hatch if they are close to 'the blood of the dragon' ... or not. And if we think about their general affinity for each other or the special case of Daenerys - who could actually *feel* that there was still something there in the dragon eggs she got she could hatch magically - then this doesn't sound unreasonable.

But we really have no idea how this thing works.

Oh, I meant more in terms of being near a baby in a cradle= body heat. That was poor phrasing on my part. I’ve never bought into the theory that dragonlord blood is required to hatch dragon eggs because the existence of wild dragons all over the world before the rise of Valyria disproves this.

As for your point about Dany feeling heat from her eggs and the affinity hatchlings seem to have for the Targaryens who will become their riders, this is a complicated area that we don’t know a lot about but I agree there is probably a magical component here. In Dany’s case specifically I think it’s certain. She could feel the eggs were alive, she was having dragon dreams and she performed a miraculous ritual that no one understands or taught her and resurrected what were effectively 3 dead hatchlings. 

As for Targaryens, let’s take Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey as an example. They all had cradle eggs that hatched into dragons they eventually rode. These eggs were probably warm, because they were alive and not petrified, so that part isn’t itself magical. I think for normal dragon eggs that aren’t petrified, like Dany’s were, they feel warm to everyone, but do imprint on the babies in the cradle with them due to proximity. It probably works for people of all ages, Aegon II sat on his egg and Rhaena probably had hers in bed with her or wrapped up near her. All achieve the same effect- an imprinted hatchling that guarantees bonding once ridden for the first time.

But I agree, the best we can do is speculate.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Thinking about that - we don't really know whether we talk about 'natural heat' or 'magical heat' in this context. How hot is it in those dragon yards and pits on Dragonstone? How close are they to the inner fires of the Dragonmount? We don't really know. It might be that the dragons do have a magical affinity to other natural heat sources and that being close to them helps them.

The dragonkeepers were formed only later, unless I'm misremembering. While Rhaena ran Dragonstone there wasn't yet a special order of knights formed to protect the dragons.

I would argue that there’s no such thing as ‘magical heat’ in this context. Daenerys miracle magical flames in her ritual notwithstanding, I think eggs just require normal heat, whether it’s another dragon, or a volcano, or a person, if they even need heat at all as you rightly point out. They could just need some time and luck.

Having said that, your point about dragons having an affinity for heat is all but confirmed. Although I would say it’s more of an environmental factor that helps their biology rather than ‘magic’. The Targaryens, for example Rhaenys (wife of Corlys) seemed convinced that dragons thrived on Dragonstone compared to elsewhere because of the volcano. This is probably just because this is a dragons natural environment and they often appear in or near such places (see Fourteen Flames and Asshai). 

Quick aside: that would explain Elissa’s successful theft of the eggs if true.

Taking what we know from Rhaenys about dragons thriving near volcanic environments, and what Barth said about dragon eggs sometimes petrifying if removed from such environments, I would conclude that dragon eggs may not need volcanic heat to hatch and dragons may not need volcanic heat to live, but dragon eggs do stand a better chance in volcanic heat and dragons themselves thrive in volcanic heat. We aren’t told specifically how, but I imagine they grow faster than average, are stronger and quicker than average and who knows, maybe more fertile than average.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As for the milk issue:

I doubt that's standard procedure - it is rather an odd detail marking out Dany as 'the Mother of Dragons'. I'd expect dragon hatchlings to be first fed with cooked meat the way Dany does it. And if Dany's dragons are any indication then in the wild the parent dragon(s) would have to provide their offspring with charred meat because they cannot hunt for that on their own in the first days and weeks after they hatch.

I agree, Dany seems to take an unorthodox approach here. As for your second point, this certainly seems true with hatchlings needing to be fed meat. Wild dragons certainly did this themselves, while the Targaryens did it for their hatchlings, like Dany does. Either the Targaryens fed them meat or the Dragonkeepers did it, but the tamed/ ridden dragons don’t seem to have bothered doing this for their own hatchlings much, not that they’d really have the chance with their eggs and hatchlings being taken to be given to Targaryens.

[direpupy]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The dragonkeepers were formed only later, unless I'm misremembering. While Rhaena ran Dragonstone there wasn't yet a special order of knights formed to protect the dragons.

You remember correctly, they where formed after the death of Aerea Targaryen two years or so after Ellisa stole they eggs. This is also when Jaehaerys decides to start using the dragonpit for the first time and put Balerion and three younger dragons in there, but not Vermithor and Silverwing who stayed in the red keep and not Dreamfyre who was with Rhaena on Estermont and latter in Harrenhall.