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Eltharion21

Vhagar's color

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I know this question is often repeated, but couldn't find more recent thread so I post this here.

Great image of Aemond and Vhagar vs Lucerys and Arrax by Sam Hogg from Asoiaf Calendar was posted on reddit/Imaginary Westeros.

https://old.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/comments/kxwhwt/vhagar_and_arrax_by_sam_hogg_from_the_2021_asoiaf/

To cut long story short, poster asked artist on Twitter about it and here is the reply - so it seems Vhagar looked similar to Rheagal.

 

Quote

Jon Umber
@JonUmber_
·
Jan 15, 2021
@Zephyri Hi Sam! I was looking through your work on this year's ASOIAF calendar (which is amazing, btw!). Just wanted to confirm—the dragon spread is Vhagar and Arrax, right? Not Balerion and Quicksilver?

Sam Hogg
@Zephyri
Hey Jon, and yes, yes it is :) Had confirmation of dragon colours direct from the dragons mouth too, so to speak!
9:36 PM · Jan 15, 2021

 

 

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Yeah, just saw that when looking on Twitter. It seems a fan prompting George about it in Belfast in 2019 seems to have finally led to a decision on the color, as even then George was undecided when we discussed it.

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I went ahead and asked Sam Hogg another point of clarification in the same Twitter thread, seeing as it was a picture of Vhagar and Arrax, I asked what their exact description of Arrax's coloration they gave him was:

"pearlescent white with yellow flame, golden eyes and a golden chest"

Now the only ones whose color we don't know are Arrax's brothers Vermax and Tyraxes, and the hatchlings of Aegon II's children, Shrykos and Morghul.

(sigh) still no purple.  We have every color but purple.

I want a bone white or silver dragon, with purple highlights.

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I guess if you want to make dragon lineages and stuff then Vhagar being bronze makes it pretty likely that she is the mother of Vermithor. Silverwing is said to have been his cousin, so I guess her mother would have been Quicksilver.

Dreamfyre could be the mother of Tessarion considering they are both blueish.

Sunfyre could be one of Syrax's get, hatching on Dragonstone after Rhaenyra moved there, considering they are both yellow/golden.

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I know, I thought Vermithor too.

But the point where we have to just swipe our notes off our desk and throw them into the fireplace, is when you realize that dragon eggs can stay dormant for centuries; for all we know, some if not MOST of the 20 dragons in the Dance were hatched from eggs left behind by the ORIGINAL FIVE in pre-Conquest Dragonstone.  And what if color skips a generation?

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I realised while researching that there wasn't any official mention of the colours, so I asked his team :) bronze with greenish blue highlights and bright green eyes.

Here is the quote from the artist about how Vhagar's color was described to her.

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3 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

But the point where we have to just swipe our notes off our desk and throw them into the fireplace, is when you realize that dragon eggs can stay dormant for centuries; for all we know, some if not MOST of the 20 dragons in the Dance were hatched from eggs left behind by the ORIGINAL FIVE in pre-Conquest Dragonstone.  And what if color skips a generation?

No, most of the Dance dragons are from eggs laid by Syrax. That goes for all the dragons of Rhaenyra's sons as well as Viserys' dragon egg, and also for Moondancer and Morning.

Dragon eggs aren't dormant. They usually hatch some time after they were laid, and when removed from a fiery environment like a volcanic island (like Dragonstone) they eventually turn to stone and then they are no longer viable.

And that's why the hatching of Dany's eggs is a miracle and all the attempts of the Targaryens to hatch dragon eggs that had already turned to stone were pretty desperate magical attempts. It was like trying to revive fossils, basically.

Thanks to FaB elaborating on what happens to dragon eggs which are removed from a fiery place we can now finally piece together how it is that Dany's dragon eggs pretty much resemble the Butterwell dragon egg we see in TMK. It doesn't need centuries and ages for dragon eggs to turn to stone - like Illyrio implies in AGoT - but a much shorter time. The eggs of Egg and his siblings were likely also already stone eggs despite the fact that some may have been from the clutch of the last dragon (who produced five eggs before her death).

But, of course, those colors could indeed jump generations, etc. Where the reddish dragons come from we cannot really say, anyway. Meleys and Caraxes are the first red dragons that we know of.

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4 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Balerion's secondary red colors?

Balerion is actually never described as red, unless I'm mistaken. There are swirls of red in his black fire, so I guess there is a chance that some parts of him were red like they are with Drogon - who, in a sense, appears like a reincarnation of Balerion or at least resembling him very much - but that's not confirmed.

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I like how all the dragons from the earlier generations seem to nicely fit as offspring of either silver Meraxes (Quicksilver, Dreamfyre, Silverwing) or bronzish Vhagar (Vermithor, Shepstealer)

It's only with in later generations that more diversity in the dragons coloring begin to appear, which I believe is how it would work in real life.

On 1/16/2021 at 9:32 PM, Lord Varys said:

But, of course, those colors could indeed jump generations, etc. Where the reddish dragons come from we cannot really say, anyway. Meleys and Caraxes are the first red dragons that we know of.

If Balerion's secondary color was red (which doesn't seem unlikely, for the reasons you mention upthread and also because it makes plenty of sense that Aegon's banner was inspired in Balerion's colors), then both Meleys and Caraxes could be the offspring of Balerion and Vhagar.

On 1/16/2021 at 5:42 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

Now the only ones whose color we don't know are Arrax's brothers Vermax and Tyraxes, and the hatchlings of Aegon II's children, Shrykos and Morghul.

I may be wrong, but I think that we are missing Stormcloud's color too.

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4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I like how all the dragons from the earlier generations seem to nicely fit as offspring of either silver Meraxes (Quicksilver, Dreamfyre, Silverwing) or bronzish Vhagar (Vermithor, Shepstealer)

I guess we can say the only direct descendant of Meraxes is Quicksilver, whose get are then Dreamfyre and Silverwing.

In addition to what I already said I think we also can make educated guesses about the dragons at the end of the family. With the Blacks and Greens developing and Sunfyre perhaps being the get of Syrax, we can assume that Tessarion is a hatchling produced by Dreamfyre after the dragon passed to Helaena whereas Shrykos and Morghul are the get of Tessarion, who, since she is clearly 'identified' as a she-dragon, must have produced eggs.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It's only with in later generations that more diversity in the dragons coloring begin to appear, which I believe is how it would work in real life.

To be sure, we also cannot discount the possibility that there were riderless/wild dragons on Dragonstone during the Conquest who either produced eggs or mated with the female dragons further down the road. And with the many dragons around during the reigns of Aegon to the late Jaehaerys there is also no way of knowing whether Meleys and Caraxes and Seasmoke are direct descendants of the known dragons or whether their parents lived and died unridden on Dragonstone or the Dragonpit.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

If Balerion's secondary color was red (which doesn't seem unlikely, for the reasons you mention upthread and also because it makes plenty of sense that Aegon's banner was inspired in Balerion's colors), then both Meleys and Caraxes could be the offspring of Balerion and Vhagar.

I never thought about the Targaryen colors going back to Balerion. I like that. Balerion and Vhagar likely could have produced more offspring both on Dragonstone before Aerea claimed then and afterwards, when Jaehaerys kept both of them in the Dragonpit.

If Aemond's son indeed already has a dragon the egg from which it hatched would also have been produced by Vhagar prior to her death at Harrenhal.

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Seasmoke and Syrax are strong contenders for the parentage of Arrax and his white and yellow colouring confirms this for me.

More importantly I think it shows that GRRM has put thought into the heredity and colouration of the dragons which makes theorising their family tree less fruitless (theorising their family tree is a current interest of mine).

@Ran do you know if GRRM has thought up the genealogy of the Targaryen dragons or if we’ll ever find out?

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16 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Seasmoke and Syrax are strong contenders for the parentage of Arrax and his white and yellow colouring confirms this for me.

Syrax is confirmed to have produced the dragon eggs of all of Rhaenyra's and Daemon's children.

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So this whole thong inspired me to take at look at dragons and what there colors could say about there parentage and got carried away :wacko: 

Keep in mind all of this is speculation and i cant really prove any of it, and i could be totally wrong here, also i might have missed things i'm not perfect after all so feel free to comment and add things that i missed.

The colors of the later dragons puzzled me for a while until i remembered that GRRM collects toy knights and has done so for many years, you have to paint these yourself but where you can buy all possible colors these days, in the past you had to mix your own colors from base color paint. So GRRM would actually know how to mix color to get certain other colors and he could break down the colors of the first three dragons into there base colors, so these could be the basis of the colors of the later dragons.

I know wild speculation but its better then nothing, so here goes.

Mix of colors needed to make the colors of the first three dragons: red, yellow and blue mixed make black. Black, blue and a touch of white make silver. Brown, red and white make bronze. So these colors are part of the colors black, silver and bronze and could potentially explain colors in offspring.

 

First three dragons (and one of unsure lineage):

Balerion, called the Black Dread: Born in or ~several years before 114 BC, died in 94 AC.
Balerion's scales and wings were black.

Vhagar (she-dragon): Born in 52 BC, died in 130 AC.
The color of Vhagar's scales, horns, wings, was "bronze with greenish blue highlights and bright green eyes"

Meraxes (she-dragon): Born in 114–52 BC, died in 10 AC.
Golden eyes and silver scales.

Cannibal: Born in? (some think he was already on Dragonstone before the Targaryens came, but was certainly around before the reign of Jaehaerys I so before 48 AC) died in?
black as coal, with menacing green eyes.
Parents: could be the offspring of Balerion but since there are stories of him not being a Targaryen dragon this might not be offspring of the first three dragons. Seeing how Cannibal got his name i do not see him mating with the other dragons, since it would be unlikely he would try to eat his own offspring.

Offspring:

Quicksilver: Born in? died in 43 AC.
Judging by the name the color would be silver.
Parents: likely Balerion and Meraxes, because of the silver coming from Meraxes. (unless Barth is correct about the sexuality of dragons then it could be Vhagar instead of Balerion)

Dreamfyre (she-dragon): Born in or shortly before 32 AC died in 130 AC.
Pale blue, with silver markings. She had silver crests and pale blue wings.
Parents: likely Balerion and Quicksilver, because Meraxes is already dead when Dreamfyre is born and the silver could not come from Vhagar while blue is part of the mix for the colors black and silver so do not have to come from Vhagar’s greenish blue highlights but this can not be completely ruled out.

Vermithor, called the Bronze Fury: Born in or between 30 AC and 35 AC, died in 130 AC.
Bronze with "great tan wings" (tan is a pale tone of brown).
Parents: likely Balerion and Vhagar, because the bronze would come from Vhagar and brown is part of the color bronze. Also Meraxes is dead at this point and Dreamfyre either too young or not even born yet.

Silverwing (she-dragon): Born in 36–41 AC, died in 136–153 AC.
Described as a silvery dragon.
Parents: likely Balerion and Quicksilver, because of the silver coming from Quicksilver. (unless Barth is correct about the sexuality of dragons then it could be Vhagar instead of Balerion)

Sheepstealer: Born in? (somewhere after 34 AC since it was said that he was born when Jaehaerys I was young and Jaehaerys I was born in 34 AC) died in?
Color was a ugly "mud brown"
Parents: most likely Vermithor and Vhagar because brown is a part of the mix for the color bronze so at the very least one of these two and possibly both are together. Balerion, Dreamfyre, Silverwing (and possibly depending on the exact date of birth Quicksilver) are all alive at this point and candidates for the roll of parent in combination with either Vhagar or Vermithor.

Caraxes, called the Blood Wyrm: Born in? (a number of years before 72 AC since he was large enough to be ridden upon by then) died in 130 AC.
Red (no other description of color).
Parents: both Vermithor and Vhagar can be the source for the color red since it is a part of mix for the color bronze so at the very least one of these two and possibly both are together.  Balerion, Sheepstealer, Dreamfyre and Silverwing are all alive at this point and candidates for the roll of parent in combination with either Vhagar or Vermithor.

Meleys, called the Red Queen (she-dragon): Born in? (a decent number of years before 75 AC since he was large enough to be ridden upon by then and specifically said to have not been ridden before indicating that she had been big enough to ride for some time) died 129 AC.
scarlet scales and pink membranes on her wings, crest, horns, and claws were bright as copper.
Parents: since the color is largely the same as that of Caraxes and the color copper is most likely to come from bronze as well and they were likely born around the same time, there is a good chance Meleys is from the same clutch as Caraxes and would thus have the same parents.

Syrax (she-dragon): Born in? (before 104 AC when she was first ridden upon but called young in that year) died in 130 AC.
Yellow scales.
Parents: yellow is a color that is part of the mix for black but unless a dragon is still called young at the age of 8 or 9 Balerion cannot be a parent of Syrax, however black is a part of the mix for silver so likely we have to look at silver colored dragons. Quicksilver is dead at this point but Silverwing and Dreamfyre (silver markings) are not so one of these two is a parent of Syrax, since both are called she-dragons the can not be the pairing that created Syrax(unless Barth is right about the sexuality of dragons) so the second parent would then be Vermithor or Caraxes (since Vhagar and Meleys are also a she-dragons)

Grey Ghost: Born in? (since he was said to sometimes disappear out of sight for years at a time he was probably at least a few decades old by the time of his death) died in 130 AC.
pale grey-white, the color of morning mist.
Parents: likely Silverwing is one, since white is a color that is part of the mix for silver and you can make grey by mixing silver with a darker colour, since Silverwing and Vermithor are widely considered to have been a mated pair and with his bronze and tan (brown) colors Vermithor has the dark color that would need to be mixed with silver to make grey so Vermithor is probably the other parent but this can not be said with 100% certainty.

Seasmoke: born in? (since Leanor Valeryon was its first rider and he was dead by 120 AC he had to have been born long enough before that to grow big enough for Leanor to ride him so probably no less than 10 year before 120 AC) died 130 AC
pale silver-grey.
Parents: likely Silverwing and Vermithor, for the same reasons as them being the most likely candidates for Grey Ghost and Seasmoke and Grey Ghost also seem to be the same age so they may actually be from the same clutch.

Sunfyre the Golden: Born? (claimed as a mount by 120 AC, he had to be big and old enough to ride by that time, but still called young in 129 AC and said to have been “huge and heavy  a formidable fighter despite its youth” so may only have been a few years old when he was claimed) died 130 AC
Gold scales, pale pink wing membranes.
Parents: a gold color can be achieved by mixing brown with white and yellow, but also by mixing silver with yellow and red. Since white is one of the colors in the mix for silver, Silverwing comes to mind again and Vermithor has brown and bronze and to make bronze you need yellow and red. So once again Silverwing and Vermithor seem the most likely candidates, especially since they only other source of Yellow is Syrax but that’s a She-dragon and the only source for the white or silver that is needed who is old enough to be Sunfyre’s parent is Silverwing who is also a she-dragon. (unless Barth is correct about the sexuality of dragons of course)

Tessarion the Blue Queen: Born in or before 120 AC (in 120 AC she bonded with her first rider but was at the time to small to be ridden upon, but somewhere between 120 and 129 AC she became big enough) died in 130 AC.
Her wings were a dark cobalt, while her claws, crest, and belly scales were the color of bright beaten copper.
Parents: there are several options, Dreamfyre seems most likely since she is blue but Vhagar has greenish blue among her colors and the copper could come from her bronze, and blue is also a color of the mix to make silver so Silverwing is an option. The other parent could be any of the dragons alive at that time that was not a she-dragon like Dreamfyre, Silverwing or Vhagar (unless Barth is correct about the sexuality of dragons of course)  but with the copper color most likely coming from bronze, Vermithor is a strong contender.

Vermax:  Born? (big enough to ride in 129 AC and hatched from the egg placed in the cradle of Jacaerys Velaryon in 114 AC and it is said that all three they eggs of the Velaryon brothers had hatched by 120 AC) died 130 AC
No colors have been given for Vermax in any of the books.
Parents: i heard somewhere (but can’t find the source) that all of the dragons of the children of Rhaenyra came from eggs laid by her dragon Syrax, so if this is true then Syrax would be one of the parents of Vermax.

Arrax: Born? (big enough to ride in 129 AC and hatched from the egg placed in the cradle of Lucerys Velaryon in 115 AC and it is said that all three they eggs of the Velaryon brothers had hatched by 120 AC) died 129 AC.
pearlescent white with golden eyes and a golden chest.
Parents: i heard somewhere (but can’t find the source) that all of the dragons of the children of Rhaenyra came from eggs laid by her dragon Syrax, so if this is true then Syrax would be one of the parents of Arrax. As for the other parent You need a course of white and brown to make gold but with one of Syrax own parents likely being a silver dragon and assuming here for a moment that traits can skip a generation, Syrax can be the source for white. So that leaves brown making Vermithor and Sheepstealer candidates.

Tyraxes: Born? (big enough to ride in 129 AC although only barely and hatched from the egg placed in the cradle of Joffrey Velaryon in 117 AC and it is said that all three they eggs of the Velaryon brothers had hatched by 120 AC) died 130 AC
No colors have been given for Tyraxes in any of the books.
Parents: i heard somewhere (but can’t find the source) that all of the dragons of the children of Rhaenyra came from eggs laid by her dragon Syrax, so if this is true then Syrax would be one of the parents of Tyraxes.

Moondancer (she-dragon): Born? (in 129 not considered big enough to carry her rider but a year later Baela Targaryen was able to mount her so very young) died 130 AC.
pale green, her horns, crest and wingbones were pearl (pearl is a tint of off-white).
Parents: They only mention of green before this is the greenish blue of Vhagar, making Vhagar almost certainly one of Moondancer’s parents. The pearl being a off-white color means Seasmoke and Grey Ghost are candidates. (Silverwing would also be a candidate if Barth is correct about the sexuality of dragons)

Stormcloud: Born? (not big enough to ride in 129 AC and hatched from the egg placed in the cradle of Aegon III in 120 AC) died 130 AC
No colors have been given for Stormcloud in any of the books.
Parents: i heard somewhere (but can’t find the source) that all of the dragons of the children of Rhaenyra came from eggs laid by her dragon Syrax, so if this is true then Syrax would be one of the parents of Stormcloud.

Morning (she-dragon): Born 129 or 130 AC, died in? (but before 153 AC because in that year the last dragon died)
Scales were pale pink, but with black horns and crest.
Parents: Pink is mentioned on two occasions as the color of the membranes of the wings of both Meleys and Sunfyre, of course pink can also be made by mixing red with white so Meleys seems a strong candidate together with Seasmoke or Grey Ghost. But it could also be Caraxes with Silverwing. (as always Barth being right about the sexuality of dragons would throw a wrench into the whole thing)

last dragon (she-dragon): Born?(but after 136 because there is no other dragon at that time that is not one of the four survivors of the Dance of Dragons) Died in 153 AC.
Green.
Parents: Vhagar is dead at this point and the only other dragon with green among its colors is Moondancer who is also dead, so here we are probably faced with color skipping a generation or the possibility that this is an old egg they somehow managed to hatch. Since Moondancer was very young i do think where looking at Vhagar ore one of Vhagar’s offspring as a parent.
 

I left out Dany's dragons because there is no way of knowing if the egg's they hatched from are realy from asshai like Illyrio claims or the three egg's Elissa Farman stole.

Like i said i got carried away. :blush:

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6 hours ago, direpupy said:

 

So this whole thong inspired me to take at look at dragons and what there colors could say about there parentage and got carried away :wacko: 

 

That’s really interesting! One of my friends mentioned paint-style colour mixing and I didn’t take it seriously. I’m still not sure if I buy it but it seems to work.

A couple of notes - 

1. During the Dance Syrax lays a new clutch of eggs and one is sent to Rhaena in the Vale and hatches into Morning, so I believe it is confirmed that Morning is the offspring of Syrax. I would guess from the pink colouration and Rhaenyra and Daemon’s relationship that Morning’s father is Caraxes. 

2. I think Arrax’s colouration suggests Seasmoke as a contender for the father, and likely also of Vermax and Tyraxes.

3. I originally guessed that Moondancer would be the offspring of Caraxes and Vhagar, the dragons of Baela’s parents. Another option via Barth’s theory on the sex of dragons could be Vhagar and Syrax (as Laena and Rhaenyra were known to fly together).

I’m not sure how these fit into your colour theory but just some thoughts.

On 1/22/2021 at 3:23 AM, Lord Varys said:

Syrax is confirmed to have produced the dragon eggs of all of Rhaenyra's and Daemon's children.

I’m assuming this includes Baela’s Moondancer then. Do you have a source for this? 

Edited by Jaehaerys Tyrell
A rogue Queen slipped in

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6 hours ago, direpupy said:

Morning (she-dragon): Born 129 or 130 AC, died in? (but before 153 AC because in that year the last dragon died)
Scales were pale pink, but with black horns and crest.
Parents: Pink is mentioned on two occasions as the color of the membranes of the wings of both Meleys and Sunfyre, of course pink can also be made by mixing red with white so Meleys seems a strong candidate together with Seasmoke or Grey Ghost. But it could also be Caraxes with Silverwing. (as always Barth being right about the sexuality of dragons would throw a wrench into the whole thing)

To whom do you attribute the black? Cannibal perhaps?

 

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

last dragon (she-dragon): Born?(but after 136 because there is no other dragon at that time that is not one of the four survivors of the Dance of Dragons) Died in 153 AC.
Green.
Parents: Vhagar is dead at this point and the only other dragon with green among its colors is Moondancer who is also dead, so here we are probably faced with color skipping a generation or the possibility that this is an old egg they somehow managed to hatch. Since Moondancer was very young i do think where looking at Vhagar ore one of Vhagar’s offspring as a parent.
 

This is a puzzling one. *If* Aemond Targaryen and Alys Rivers’s child has a dragon the most likely contender seems to be either the offspring of Vhagar (perhaps sired by Sunfyre?), or the Cannibal himself (if Alys Rivers has some powerful magic to summon and tame him). So the Last Dragon could be the grandchild of Vhagar, or the child of green-eyed Cannibal, explaining its colouration.

Yellow and blue make green, I think, so another option might be that Sunfyre and Dreamfyre laid the Last Dragon’s egg (or had an egg that hatched shortly after the Dance and sired the Last Dragon). 
 

edited to add - Moondancer may also have laid the Last Dragon’s egg, although young she is described as female I believe (hence has laid eggs)

Edited by Jaehaerys Tyrell

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