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Eltharion21

Vhagar's color

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3 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

1. During the Dance Syrax lays a new clutch of eggs and one is sent to Rhaena in the Vale and hatches into Morning, so I believe it is confirmed that Morning is the offspring of Syrax. I would guess from the pink colouration and Rhaenyra and Daemon’s relationship that Morning’s father is Caraxes. 

Morning was born from one of the three egg's that Rhaena brought to the Vale with her both according to Fire&Blood and The World of Ice&fire, as far as i know the parentage of those egg's is never mentioned. In the Rogue Prince it is mentioned that Rhaena had an egg that came from a clutch of Syrax and while this may have been one of the three egg's it is not sure if this is the one that hatched, and if @Lord Varys is right about how fast they petrify then it becomes unlikely that this is they egg Morning was hatched from. 

3 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

2. I think Arrax’s colouration suggests Seasmoke as a contender for the father, and likely also of Vermax and Tyraxes.

I doubt that because of the brown needed to make Arrax gold coloration. But i understand the thought yellow is close to gold but make yellow into gold yo need not only silver but also red, Seasmoke can provide the silver but the red is then a problem.

3 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

3. I originally guessed that Moondancer would be the offspring of Caraxes and Vhagar, the dragons of Baela’s parents. Another option via Barth’s theory on the sex of dragons could be Vhagar and Syrax (as Laena and Rhaenyra were known to fly together).

That was my original thought too but the pearl-white has to come from somewhere and can not come from Caraxes. The Barth thing can really change everything that's why all of this remains speculation at best.

3 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

To whom do you attribute the black? Cannibal perhaps?

That one is puzzling which is why i did not really make any mention off where it could come from, it could be a generational skip that traces back to Balerion.

3 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

This is a puzzling one. *If* Aemond Targaryen and Alys Rivers’s child has a dragon the most likely contender seems to be either the offspring of Vhagar (perhaps sired by Sunfyre?), or the Cannibal himself (if Alys Rivers has some powerful magic to summon and tame him). So the Last Dragon could be the grandchild of Vhagar, or the child of green-eyed Cannibal, explaining its colouration.

Yellow and blue make green, I think, so another option might be that Sunfyre and Dreamfyre laid the Last Dragon’s egg (or had an egg that hatched shortly after the Dance and sired the Last Dragon). 
 

edited to add - Moondancer may also have laid the Last Dragon’s egg, although young she is described as female I believe (hence has laid eggs)

Yeah this is really the one where things derailed, you are right about yellow and blue making green so that's an option.

Thanks for your responses  they are much appreciated :D

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On 1/18/2021 at 5:22 PM, Lord Varys said:

To be sure, we also cannot discount the possibility that there were riderless/wild dragons on Dragonstone during the Conquest who either produced eggs or mated with the female dragons further down the road.

I tend to interpret the following passage of Gyldayn's history as confirming that there were no other dragons at Dragonstone at the time of the Conquest.

Of the five dragons who had flown with Aenar the Exile from Valyria, only one survived to Aegon’s day: the great beast called Balerion, the Black Dread. The remaining two dragons— Vhagar and Meraxes—were younger, hatched on Dragonstone itself.

Emphasis mine. It's not conclusive, I admit. But think it fits the rest of the story better (the next Targaryen princes all rode newborn dragons, there were no dragons comparable to Vhagar's size during the dance, etc.)

On 1/18/2021 at 5:22 PM, Lord Varys said:

 And with the many dragons around during the reigns of Aegon to the late Jaehaerys there is also no way of knowing whether Meleys and Caraxes and Seasmoke are direct descendants of the known dragons or whether their parents lived and died unridden on Dragonstone or the Dragonpit.

The number of dragons in the early Targaryen years that were never ridden but are no longer alive during the Dance of Dragons is a troubling issue. The "dozen hatchlings born on Dragonstone" in 31 AC, then two more in 37 AC, the three eggs from Dreamfyre on 51 AC,... all of them should be kicking and running by 129. Some disappearances can certainly be attributed to the Cannibal, but I feel it's a little too much.

10 hours ago, direpupy said:

Silverwing (she-dragon): Born in 36–41 AC, died in 136–153 AC.

Described as a silvery dragon.
Parents: likely Balerion and Quicksilver, because of the silver coming from Quicksilver. (unless Barth is correct about the sexuality of dragons then it could be Vhagar instead of Balerion)

Regardless of whether Vhagar could change her sex at will, at the time of Silverwing's bith, Quicksilver and Vhagar wouldn't have a lot of opportunities to mate. From Fire and Blood:

Prince Aenys was the heir apparent, and King Aegon kept him close by his side. As the king moved about the realm from castle to castle, so did the prince. Prince Maegor remained with his mother, sitting by her side when she held court. Queen Visenya and King Aegon were oft apart in those years. When he was not on a royal progress, Aegon would return to King’s Landing and the Aegonfort, whilst Visenya and her son remained on Dragonstone.

I don't know if Martin intended it that way or not, but I think it's very cool that while Aegon is alive, Balerion mostly mates with the dragons of people the Conqueror would spend time with (Rhaenys, Aenys); but when Balerion passes to Maegar's control he starts mating with Visenya's Vhagar.

10 hours ago, direpupy said:

Sheepstealer: Born in? (somewhere after 34 AC since it was said that he was born when Jaehaerys I was young and Jaehaerys I was born in 34 AC) died in?

Color was a ugly "mud brown"
Parents: most likely Vermithor and Vhagar because brown is a part of the mix for the color bronze so at the very least one of these two and possibly both are together. Balerion, Dreamfyre, Silverwing (and possibly depending on the exact date of birth Quicksilver) are all alive at this point and candidates for the roll of parent in combination with either Vhagar or Vermithor.

I believe the most likely parents for Sheepstealer are Balerion and Vhagar. Vermithor fled with Jaehaerys from Dragonstone at 44 AC, to hid in Storm's End for a few years and then reside at KL. There would be a very small window of opportunity for Vermithor to mate with Vhagar, and he would be a very young dragon by then. Also, with most species it's the most strong animal who is able to mate with the desirable females. Balerion and Vhagar makes much more sense, IMO.

For simila reasons, I also thing that Balerion and Vhagar are the likeliest parents for the "red dragons" Meleys and Caraxes. And as I said upthread, since Balerion's secondary color very possibly red, it would make for a nice match.

10 hours ago, direpupy said:

unless a dragon is still called young at the age of 8 or 9 Balerion cannot be a parent of Syrax,

Sadly, I don't think we can take that for granted. Glydayn callsQuicksilver a "young dragon" at the time of her death, when she was past thirty.

Then the Black Dread fell upon her from above, his jaws closing round her neck as he ripped one wing from her body. Screaming and smoking, the young dragon plunged to earth, and Prince Aegon with her.

And come on. I'm even older than that and I'm still young!! :cool4:

10 hours ago, direpupy said:

Seasmoke: born in? (since Leanor Valeryon was its first rider and he was dead by 120 AC he had to have been born long enough before that to grow big enough for Leanor to ride him so probably no less than 10 year before 120 AC) died 130 AC
pale silver-grey.
Parents: likely Silverwing and Vermithor, for the same reasons as them being the most likely candidates for Grey Ghost and Seasmoke and Grey Ghost also seem to be the same age so they may actually be from the same clutch.

I assign the two grey dragons (Seasmoke and Grey Ghost) to Silverwing and the Cannibal. My rationale is that they both appear in the Dragonstone area (if they had been Vermithor, they would have born in the Dragonpit). We know that during her quarrels with her husband, Alysanne resided at Dragonstone. This would fit the time where Seasmoke was born. In that time, the Cannibal would be the biggest male dragon around the area, and of course grey and silver would produce some greyish color.

10 hours ago, direpupy said:

Sunfyre the Golden: Born? (claimed as a mount by 120 AC, he had to be big and old enough to ride by that time, but still called young in 129 AC and said to have been “huge and heavy  a formidable fighter despite its youth” so may only have been a few years old when he was claimed) died 130 AC
Gold scales, pale pink wing membranes.
Parents: a gold color can be achieved by mixing brown with white and yellow, but also by mixing silver with yellow and red. Since white is one of the colors in the mix for silver, Silverwing comes to mind again and Vermithor has brown and bronze and to make bronze you need yellow and red. So once again Silverwing and Vermithor seem the most likely candidates, especially since they only other source of Yellow is Syrax but that’s a She-dragon and the only source for the white or silver that is needed who is old enough to be Sunfyre’s parent is Silverwing who is also a she-dragon. (unless Barth is correct about the sexuality of dragons of course)

My own theory is that the yellow dragons come from Vermithor and Meleys. They were together at KL around te thime they were born, and both Meleys and Sunfyre have pink as secondary color.

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

In the Rogue Prince it is mentioned that Rhaena had an egg that came from a clutch of Syrax and while this may have been one of the three egg's it is not sure if this is the one that hatched, and if @Lord Varys is right about how fast they petrify then it becomes unlikely that this is they egg Morning was hatched from.

We don't know how much time passes until an egg becomes petrified, but it's far from immediate. We know Dreamfyre produced a clutch of eggs at the Fair Isle. Then Rhaena started to feel uncomfortable and decided to go to Casterly Rock, where she spends a considerable amount of time. Then she goes to KL and then to Dragonstone, where the eggs finally hatch. All that should amount to more time that the period passed between the later Rhaena receving Syrax's egg and Morning's birth at the Vale.

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26 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Regardless of whether Vhagar could change her sex at will, at the time of Silverwing's bith, Quicksilver and Vhagar wouldn't have a lot of opportunities to mate. From Fire and Blood:

Prince Aenys was the heir apparent, and King Aegon kept him close by his side. As the king moved about the realm from castle to castle, so did the prince. Prince Maegor remained with his mother, sitting by her side when she held court. Queen Visenya and King Aegon were oft apart in those years. When he was not on a royal progress, Aegon would return to King’s Landing and the Aegonfort, whilst Visenya and her son remained on Dragonstone.

I don't know if Martin intended it that way or not, but I think it's very cool that while Aegon is alive, Balerion mostly mates with the dragons of people the Conqueror would spend time with (Rhaenys, Aenys); but when Balerion passes to Maegar's control he starts mating with Visenya's Vhagar.

Well that strengthens the idea that Silverwing comes from Balerion and Quiksilver so that's nice, good catch on the timeline there. I had not looked at availability of mates beyond whether both dragons where alive at the time.

28 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I believe the most likely parents for Sheepstealer are Balerion and Vhagar. Vermithor fled with Jaehaerys from Dragonstone at 44 AC, to hid in Storm's End for a few years and then reside at KL. There would be a very small window of opportunity for Vermithor to mate with Vhagar, and he would be a very young dragon by then. Also, with most species it's the most strong animal who is able to mate with the desirable females. Balerion and Vhagar makes much more sense, IMO.

For simila reasons, I also thing that Balerion and Vhagar are the likeliest parents for the "red dragons" Meleys and Caraxes. And as I said upthread, since Balerion's secondary color very possibly red, it would make for a nice match.

I agree with Sheepstealer, i had thought about the strongest being the one who gets to mate i actually mention this in an other post where i responded to someone else, so that does make Balerion the most likely candidate.

As for the red dragons, like Lord Varys has already pointed out uptread Balerion is described as all black with no secondary color this description is consistent in every mention of Balerion making it highly unlikely Balerion had a secondary color. But red is one of the colors needed to make black so Balerion is not out of the question and the whole strongest get to mate thing would support this.

39 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Sadly, I don't think we can take that for granted. Glydayn callsQuicksilver a "young dragon" at the time of her death, when she was past thirty.

Then the Black Dread fell upon her from above, his jaws closing round her neck as he ripped one wing from her body. Screaming and smoking, the young dragon plunged to earth, and Prince Aegon with her.

And come on. I'm even older than that and I'm still young!! :cool4:

Well i guess that answers the question of whether a 8 or 9 year old dragon can be called young;) it does open up the possibility Balerion is the father.

43 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I assign the two grey dragons (Seasmoke and Grey Ghost) to Silverwing and the Cannibal. My rationale is that they both appear in the Dragonstone area (if they had been Vermithor, they would have born in the Dragonpit). We know that during her quarrels with her husband, Alysanne resided at Dragonstone. This would fit the time where Seasmoke was born. In that time, the Cannibal would be the biggest male dragon around the area, and of course grey and silver would produce some greyish color.

Actually Vermithor and Silverwing where not kept in the dragonpit but in the red keep, and there seem to be no dragon's who where born in the dragonpit, all egg's seem to have been taken to dragonstone after being laid because that's where the nurseries where. Morning is off course an exception to this rule but seems to be they only one, that's why when its time for Aemond to get a dragon his father Visery's wants to take him to dragonstone because that's where the hatclings are. Its the same when Jaehaerys wants a hatchling for his sick daughter Daenaerys he sends word to dragonstone because that's where the hatchlings are.

So being from dragonstone does not exclude Vermithor then there is the widely accepted idea Vermithor and Silverwing where a mated pair and last but not least there is also the problem with the Cannibal maybe not being a Targaryen dragon making him an unlikely mate. I therefore have to disagree with you on this.

55 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

My own theory is that the yellow dragons come from Vermithor and Meleys. They were together at KL around te thime they were born, and both Meleys and Sunfyre have pink as secondary color.

Well Vermithor can certainly be the source for the yellow since it is part of the colors you need to make bronze, but by this point Vermithor and Silverwing are well established as a mated pair. In my opinion that makes Vermithor with Silverwing more likely.

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

We don't know how much time passes until an egg becomes petrified, but it's far from immediate. We know Dreamfyre produced a clutch of eggs at the Fair Isle. Then Rhaena started to feel uncomfortable and decided to go to Casterly Rock, where she spends a considerable amount of time. Then she goes to KL and then to Dragonstone, where the eggs finally hatch. All that should amount to more time that the period passed between the later Rhaena receving Syrax's egg and Morning's birth at the Vale.

There is about two years between Rhaena recieving Syrax egg and the hatching of Morning, while the travels of the first Rhaena take place in the period of roughly one year.

Also there are three egg's taken to the Vale, why three? probably because the egg she had should have hatched by now so they gave her some more since the one she had was no longer expected to hatch. It could still be this egg but i do not think it likely.

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

By the way, this is my own speculative gentree for the first generations of Targaryen dragons that I've made.

Nice looks cool, and thanks for all your input.

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17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Cannibal: Born in? (some think he was already on Dragonstone before the Targaryens came, but was certainly around before the reign of Jaehaerys I so before 48 AC) died in?

black as coal, with menacing green eyes.
Parents: could be the offspring of Balerion but since there are stories of him not being a Targaryen dragon this might not be offspring of the first three dragons. Seeing how Cannibal got his name i do not see him mating with the other dragons, since it would be unlikely he would try to eat his own offspring.

Cannibals in the animal kingdom occasionally also eat their own children or mates, so it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Cannibal did have mates and offspring.

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Dreamfyre (she-dragon): Born in or shortly before 32 AC died in 130 AC.

Pale blue, with silver markings. She had silver crests and pale blue wings.
Parents: likely Balerion and Quicksilver, because Meraxes is already dead when Dreamfyre is born and the silver could not come from Vhagar while blue is part of the mix for the colors black and silver so do not have to come from Vhagar’s greenish blue highlights but this can not be completely ruled out.

Dreamfyre could also be the offspring of Quicksilver, considering Quicksilver would already have been a decade old when she hatched.

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Vermithor, called the Bronze Fury: Born in or between 30 AC and 35 AC, died in 130 AC.
Bronze with "great tan wings" (tan is a pale tone of brown).
Parents: likely Balerion and Vhagar, because the bronze would come from Vhagar and brown is part of the color bronze. Also Meraxes is dead at this point and Dreamfyre either too young or not even born yet.

Vhagar is a very serious contender here but Vermithor and Silverwing are called 'cousins', so we shouldn't assume they had the same father. Or at least that people didn't think they had the same father.

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Silverwing (she-dragon): Born in 36–41 AC, died in 136–153 AC.
Described as a silvery dragon.
Parents: likely Balerion and Quicksilver, because of the silver coming from Quicksilver. (unless Barth is correct about the sexuality of dragons then it could be Vhagar instead of Balerion)

At that time there were sufficient other dragons around - a dozen dragons hatched during the late reign of the Conqueror - that Balerion isn't the only male dragon around.

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Sheepstealer: Born in? (somewhere after 34 AC since it was said that he was born when Jaehaerys I was young and Jaehaerys I was born in 34 AC) died in?
Color was a ugly "mud brown"
Parents: most likely Vermithor and Vhagar because brown is a part of the mix for the color bronze so at the very least one of these two and possibly both are together. Balerion, Dreamfyre, Silverwing (and possibly depending on the exact date of birth Quicksilver) are all alive at this point and candidates for the roll of parent in combination with either Vhagar or Vermithor.

There is no most likely there, since there are more than enough potential dragons around. Sheepstealer could be from one of the eggs Dreamfyre produced at Fair Isle which later hatched on Dragonstone. If that were so, then Quicksilver would likely be the father, since Dreamfyre and Quicksilver were together for a short time before Aegon the Uncrowned died.

But if a mating can happen years or decades before the she-dragon produces eggs, then basically all bets are off. It is quite clear that some time can pass since Dreamfyre had no mate on Fair Isle, yet she produced eggs there years after she had been with a fellow dragon.

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Caraxes, called the Blood Wyrm: Born in? (a number of years before 72 AC since he was large enough to be ridden upon by then) died in 130 AC.
Red (no other description of color).
Parents: both Vermithor and Vhagar can be the source for the color red since it is a part of mix for the color bronze so at the very least one of these two and possibly both are together.  Balerion, Sheepstealer, Dreamfyre and Silverwing are all alive at this point and candidates for the roll of parent in combination with either Vhagar or Vermithor.

We basically have no idea who may be the parents of Caraxes and Meleys. If they were Dragonpit dragons, i.e. dragons who hatched there, then Dreamfyre isn't that likely since she was at Harrenhal at least until 73 AC. And we have no idea when/if she was moved to the Dragonpit because nobody mentions that she was.

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Seasmoke: born in? (since Leanor Valeryon was its first rider and he was dead by 120 AC he had to have been born long enough before that to grow big enough for Leanor to ride him so probably no less than 10 year before 120 AC) died 130 AC
pale silver-grey.
Parents: likely Silverwing and Vermithor, for the same reasons as them being the most likely candidates for Grey Ghost and Seasmoke and Grey Ghost also seem to be the same age so they may actually be from the same clutch.

If I had to guess then Vhagar is the father of any dragons Meleys produced, since chances are pretty good that they got along as splendidly as their riders, Baelon and Alyssa, while both were still alive. Chances are good that they mated and then Meleys eventually produced eggs, possibly only after Meleys had already passed to Rhaenys.

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Sunfyre the Golden: Born? (claimed as a mount by 120 AC, he had to be big and old enough to ride by that time, but still called young in 129 AC and said to have been “huge and heavy  a formidable fighter despite its youth” so may only have been a few years old when he was claimed) died 130 AC
Gold scales, pale pink wing membranes.
Parents: a gold color can be achieved by mixing brown with white and yellow, but also by mixing silver with yellow and red. Since white is one of the colors in the mix for silver, Silverwing comes to mind again and Vermithor has brown and bronze and to make bronze you need yellow and red. So once again Silverwing and Vermithor seem the most likely candidates, especially since they only other source of Yellow is Syrax but that’s a She-dragon and the only source for the white or silver that is needed who is old enough to be Sunfyre’s parent is Silverwing who is also a she-dragon. (unless Barth is correct about the sexuality of dragons of course)

Here the best guess is Syrax and Caraxes, if you ask me, possibly taking place during Rhaenyra and Daemon's many flights in Blackwater bay in 111 AC.

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Tessarion the Blue Queen: Born in or before 120 AC (in 120 AC she bonded with her first rider but was at the time to small to be ridden upon, but somewhere between 120 and 129 AC she became big enough) died in 130 AC.
Her wings were a dark cobalt, while her claws, crest, and belly scales were the color of bright beaten copper.
Parents: there are several options, Dreamfyre seems most likely since she is blue but Vhagar has greenish blue among her colors and the copper could come from her bronze, and blue is also a color of the mix to make silver so Silverwing is an option. The other parent could be any of the dragons alive at that time that was not a she-dragon like Dreamfyre, Silverwing or Vhagar (unless Barth is correct about the sexuality of dragons of course)  but with the copper color most likely coming from bronze, Vermithor is a strong contender.

It could be simply Dreamfyre after the former was already Helaena's rider.

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Vermax:  Born? (big enough to ride in 129 AC and hatched from the egg placed in the cradle of Jacaerys Velaryon in 114 AC and it is said that all three they eggs of the Velaryon brothers had hatched by 120 AC) died 130 AC
No colors have been given for Vermax in any of the books.
Parents: i heard somewhere (but can’t find the source) that all of the dragons of the children of Rhaenyra came from eggs laid by her dragon Syrax, so if this is true then Syrax would be one of the parents of Vermax.

Since Rhaenyra was still married to Laenor, Seasmoke is rather likely to be the father of those eggs. Caraxes was nowhere in sight while Rhaenyra's sons were born.

11 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

That’s really interesting! One of my friends mentioned paint-style colour mixing and I didn’t take it seriously. I’m still not sure if I buy it but it seems to work.

A couple of notes - 

1. During the Dance Syrax lays a new clutch of eggs and one is sent to Rhaena in the Vale and hatches into Morning, so I believe it is confirmed that Morning is the offspring of Syrax. I would guess from the pink colouration and Rhaenyra and Daemon’s relationship that Morning’s father is Caraxes. 

Yes, that is very much implied there.

11 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

3. I originally guessed that Moondancer would be the offspring of Caraxes and Vhagar, the dragons of Baela’s parents. Another option via Barth’s theory on the sex of dragons could be Vhagar and Syrax (as Laena and Rhaenyra were known to fly together).

We just know that the king allowed Daemon's daughters dragon eggs, so they could have come from anywhere, but chances are not that bad that they were from Syrax because she is the she-dragon producing eggs in that era. We don't hear anything about Silverwing or any of the other Dragonstonian she-dragons producing eggs in that time.

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5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I tend to interpret the following passage of Gyldayn's history as confirming that there were no other dragons at Dragonstone at the time of the Conquest.

Of the five dragons who had flown with Aenar the Exile from Valyria, only one survived to Aegon’s day: the great beast called Balerion, the Black Dread. The remaining two dragons— Vhagar and Meraxes—were younger, hatched on Dragonstone itself.

Emphasis mine. It's not conclusive, I admit. But think it fits the rest of the story better (the next Targaryen princes all rode newborn dragons, there were no dragons comparable to Vhagar's size during the dance, etc.)

Yes, there is a chance that only the three dragons were around at the time of the Conquest, but it isn't really conclusive.

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The number of dragons in the early Targaryen years that were never ridden but are no longer alive during the Dance of Dragons is a troubling issue. The "dozen hatchlings born on Dragonstone" in 31 AC, then two more in 37 AC, the three eggs from Dreamfyre on 51 AC,... all of them should be kicking and running by 129. Some disappearances can certainly be attributed to the Cannibal, but I feel it's a little too much.

Yes, especially in light of the fact that only three of Jaehaerys' children and - to our knowledge - only three of his grandchildren were given dragons.

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Regardless of whether Vhagar could change her sex at will, at the time of Silverwing's bith, Quicksilver and Vhagar wouldn't have a lot of opportunities to mate. From Fire and Blood:

Prince Aenys was the heir apparent, and King Aegon kept him close by his side. As the king moved about the realm from castle to castle, so did the prince. Prince Maegor remained with his mother, sitting by her side when she held court. Queen Visenya and King Aegon were oft apart in those years. When he was not on a royal progress, Aegon would return to King’s Landing and the Aegonfort, whilst Visenya and her son remained on Dragonstone.

I don't know if Martin intended it that way or not, but I think it's very cool that while Aegon is alive, Balerion mostly mates with the dragons of people the Conqueror would spend time with (Rhaenys, Aenys); but when Balerion passes to Maegar's control he starts mating with Visenya's Vhagar.

Yes, that makes sense. However, as I said above, Quicksilver and Dreamfyre could have mated while both were with Aegon the Uncrowned and Rhaena.

The idea that dragons were close with the people their riders also liked - and loathed the dragons of the people their riders hated - is very much impled, so one should consider that in one's calculations.

However, that is irrelevant while a particular set of dragons is riderless. Vhagar and Balerion could have mated a lot on Dragonstone or later in the Dragonpit while they were without riders.

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I believe the most likely parents for Sheepstealer are Balerion and Vhagar. Vermithor fled with Jaehaerys from Dragonstone at 44 AC, to hid in Storm's End for a few years and then reside at KL. There would be a very small window of opportunity for Vermithor to mate with Vhagar, and he would be a very young dragon by then. Also, with most species it's the most strong animal who is able to mate with the desirable females. Balerion and Vhagar makes much more sense, IMO.

An interesting fact there seems that Silverwing didn't produce any eggs early in the reign of Jaehaerys I, or else Jaehaerys wouldn't have to call on Dragonstone for a dragon for his dying daughter Daenerys. If they had had eggs in the Red Keep they would likely also have had hatchlings eventually.

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

For simila reasons, I also thing that Balerion and Vhagar are the likeliest parents for the "red dragons" Meleys and Caraxes. And as I said upthread, since Balerion's secondary color very possibly red, it would make for a nice match.

Sadly, I don't think we can take that for granted. Glydayn callsQuicksilver a "young dragon" at the time of her death, when she was past thirty.

Then the Black Dread fell upon her from above, his jaws closing round her neck as he ripped one wing from her body. Screaming and smoking, the young dragon plunged to earth, and Prince Aegon with her.

And come on. I'm even older than that and I'm still young!! :cool4:

But we know they thought her to be female, so she definitely laid at least one set of eggs.

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I assign the two grey dragons (Seasmoke and Grey Ghost) to Silverwing and the Cannibal. My rationale is that they both appear in the Dragonstone area (if they had been Vermithor, they would have born in the Dragonpit). We know that during her quarrels with her husband, Alysanne resided at Dragonstone. This would fit the time where Seasmoke was born. In that time, the Cannibal would be the biggest male dragon around the area, and of course grey and silver would produce some greyish color.

The Cannibal may have mated with other dragons while he was still young and 'half-wild', so to speak, but Silverwing is a very amiable, nice dragon, meaning chances are very low she goes out all by herself. And vice versa, she is pretty big so chances that the Cannibal would attack her are very low.

Instead, if one wants to make Seasmoke to be not the get of Meleys, then she could be the offspring of Silverwing and Vhagar (while both Baelon and Alysanne resided on Dragonstone).

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

We don't know how much time passes until an egg becomes petrified, but it's far from immediate. We know Dreamfyre produced a clutch of eggs at the Fair Isle. Then Rhaena started to feel uncomfortable and decided to go to Casterly Rock, where she spends a considerable amount of time. Then she goes to KL and then to Dragonstone, where the eggs finally hatch. All that should amount to more time that the period passed between the later Rhaena receving Syrax's egg and Morning's birth at the Vale.

Yes, it would take some time. I'd expect a decade or so. As I said, the Butterwell egg - which could have been one from the clutch of the last dragon - was all turned to stone by the time of TMK. But fresh dragon eggs have to look and feel different, most likely being somewhat softer to the touch and, one assumes, hot as if there was living fire inside them.

But hopefully we'll see that firsthand when Viserion or Rhaegal produce their first clutches of eggs.

4 hours ago, direpupy said:

Actually Vermithor and Silverwing where not kept in the dragonpit but in the red keep, and there seem to be no dragon's who where born in the dragonpit, all egg's seem to have been taken to dragonstone after being laid because that's where the nurseries where. Morning is off course an exception to this rule but seems to be they only one, that's why when its time for Aemond to get a dragon his father Visery's wants to take him to dragonstone because that's where the hatclings are. Its the same when Jaehaerys wants a hatchling for his sick daughter Daenaerys he sends word to dragonstone because that's where the hatchlings are.

We do know there are many young dragons in the Dragonpit when Jaehaerys' children claim their dragons, so chances are that in the Dragonpit, too, dragon eggs did hatch. We don't know it for sure, but we also know that not all dragons on Dragonstone were ever moved to the Dragonpit - but rather the bigger, more dangerous ones, especially Balerion and Vhagar.

4 hours ago, direpupy said:

So being from dragonstone does not exclude Vermithor then there is the widely accepted idea Vermithor and Silverwing where a mated pair and last but not least there is also the problem with the Cannibal maybe not being a Targaryen dragon making him an unlikely mate. I therefore have to disagree with you on this.

Regardless who the Cannibal is, he still could mate with the other dragons. Him not being a 'Targaryen dragon' wouldn't change that. Dragons are dragons.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cannibals in the animal kingdom occasionally also eat their own children or mates, so it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Cannibal did have mates and offspring.

I did not know that, opens up a lot of possibility's.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dreamfyre could also be the offspring of Quicksilver, considering Quicksilver would already have been a decade old when she hatched.

I actually named Quicksilver in combination with Balerion as the most likely parents, so i guess you are agreeing with me then?

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Vhagar is a very serious contender here but Vermithor and Silverwing are called 'cousins', so we shouldn't assume they had the same father. Or at least that people didn't think they had the same father.

I actually thought they had a different mother, but yes at least one parent has to different between them.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

At that time there were sufficient other dragons around - a dozen dragons hatched during the late reign of the Conqueror - that Balerion isn't the only male dragon around.

I worked solely with the dragons that we had the name off so i never took any unknown dragons in to account, its certainly possible there where more dragons we did not know off.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no most likely there, since there are more than enough potential dragons around. Sheepstealer could be from one of the eggs Dreamfyre produced at Fair Isle which later hatched on Dragonstone. If that were so, then Quicksilver would likely be the father, since Dreamfyre and Quicksilver were together for a short time before Aegon the Uncrowned died.

But if a mating can happen years or decades before the she-dragon produces eggs, then basically all bets are off. It is quite clear that some time can pass since Dreamfyre had no mate on Fair Isle, yet she produced eggs there years after she had been with a fellow dragon.

The idea was to use the colors of dragons to determine who the most likely parents where and the brown of Sheepstealer can not be produced by a match of Dreamfyre and Quicksilver. Off course the colors of a dragon could be random, but that was not what i was working off.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We basically have no idea who may be the parents of Caraxes and Meleys. If they were Dragonpit dragons, i.e. dragons who hatched there, then Dreamfyre isn't that likely since she was at Harrenhal at least until 73 AC. And we have no idea when/if she was moved to the Dragonpit because nobody mentions that she was.

Based on they idea of the colors being an indication of the parents, one of the parents has to be either Vhagar or Vermithor in order to get the red color, as for the second parent that's totally open.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If I had to guess then Vhagar is the father of any dragons Meleys produced, since chances are pretty good that they got along as splendidly as their riders, Baelon and Alyssa, while both were still alive. Chances are good that they mated and then Meleys eventually produced eggs, possibly only after Meleys had already passed to Rhaenys.

Seems like a solid idea to me they would certainly have had the chance to produce egg's together, so i tend to agree with you here.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Here the best guess is Syrax and Caraxes, if you ask me, possibly taking place during Rhaenyra and Daemon's many flights in Blackwater bay in 111 AC.

Syrax and Caraxes color can not be combined or stripped in to its base color in a way that would allow for the creation of the color gold. Since the theory i worked off of was that the colors of the parents have to able to make the colors of the offspring this never came up for me. You could be right but only if the colors of a dragon are random.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It could be simply Dreamfyre after the former was already Helaena's rider.

I actually named Dreamfyre as the most likely parent, so i guess you are agreeing with me then?

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Since Rhaenyra was still married to Laenor, Seasmoke is rather likely to be the father of those eggs. Caraxes was nowhere in sight while Rhaenyra's sons were born.

That would be an option for sure.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We do know there are many young dragons in the Dragonpit when Jaehaerys' children claim their dragons, so chances are that in the Dragonpit, too, dragon eggs did hatch. We don't know it for sure, but we also know that not all dragons on Dragonstone were ever moved to the Dragonpit - but rather the bigger, more dangerous ones, especially Balerion and Vhagar.

Actually all the dragons that Jaehaerys children claim are big enough to ride immediately upon the children choosing a dragon, we never hear of hatchlings in the dragonpit. So i don't think you can say that eggs hatched in the dragonpit, they could have been brought there the moment they where big enough to ride and thus be dangerous and usable  in war.

Edited by direpupy

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45 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I actually thought they had a different mother, but yes at least one parent has to different between them.

I'd think technically two parents or else they would still be half-siblings.

But we should not fool ourselves into believing two parents are necessary. We don't have a single description of an actual 'dragon mating' so it is entirely possible that she-dragons can and do self-fertilize. The only thing indicating some kind of mating ritual thing is that 'mating dance' people think may have gone on between Tessarion and Seasmoke at Second Tumbleton.

45 minutes ago, direpupy said:

The idea was to use the colors of dragons to determine who the most likely parents where and the brown of Sheepstealer can not be produced by a match of Dreamfyre and Quicksilver. Off course the colors of a dragon could be random, but that was not what i was working off.

I don't think we can go with 'mixing colors' there. She-dragons seem to produce a variety of colors in their eggs if Syrax's get are an indication. Vermax, Arrax, and Tyraxes didn't look alike.

That Balerion and Vhagar definitely had multiple offspring, too, can be drawn from the quote about the Dragonpit which was supposed to house Balerion, Vhagar, and their get.

I guess a better way to assume this is that there is broader variety in that color scheme. Although I think some color traits might be more dominant than others - say, the silver trait in the Meraxes-Quicksilver-Silverwing line. Even something as exceptional as Sunfyre's golden scales could go back to Meraxes' golden eyes.

And I'd also go with @The hairy bear's idea that Balerion's secondary color was indeed red. He had those red swirls in his fire ... and the Targaryen sigil is a red dragon of black, also reflecting this - the dominant part of the Targaryen colors is black, the red is only secondary (which you can also draw from Rhaenyra's faction being 'the Blacks' despite the fact that she wore red-and-black at that tourney.

45 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Actually all the dragons that Jaehaerys children claim are big enough to ride immediately upon the children choosing a dragon, we never hear of hatchlings in the dragonpit. So i don't think you can say that eggs hatched in the dragonpit, they could have been brought there the moment they where big enough to ride and thus be dangerous and usable  in war.

We hear of young dragons in the Dragonpit. Not hatchlings, yes, but young dragons, so this isn't conclusive.

George didn't really resolve most of the issues we have with dragon logistics. He sort of fixed the Aegon-Quicksilver issue but it actually makes no sense for Quicksilver to be in KL when Aegon claims him (we last saw a riderless Quicksilver on Dragonstone at Aenys' funeral), and the Targaryens moving around riderless dragons is odd and confusing. Balerion returns to KL with Aerea, so it makes sense to have him there, but them bothering to move a riderless Vhagar to the Dragonpit is weird ... as it is the fact that they apparently got Dreamfyre back from Harrenhal and Vermithor from KL to Dragonstone (where is in 129 AC). Silverwing would have been there when Alysanne died there, but Jaehaerys I died in the Red Keep.

Common sense would indicate that dangerous dragons would be moved to the Dragonpit somehow ... but not our of there again. And the practice as per Viserys I's reign is to go to Dragonstone for hatchlings/young dragons, so what Jaehaerys I's children do is odd and makes more sense, in my opinion, if they actually had hatchlings young dragons there rather than moving them there by ship.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But we should not fool ourselves into believing two parents are necessary. We don't have a single description of an actual 'dragon mating' so it is entirely possible that she-dragons can and do self-fertilize. The only thing indicating some kind of mating ritual thing is that 'mating dance' people think may have gone on between Tessarion and Seasmoke at Second Tumbleton.

I didn’t think there was mention of dragons reproducing asexually but it could certainly be the case - they may just assume they mate. I think the best chance of figuring out the lineages of the dragons accurately could be to focus on the maternal line of known egg-layers. 

 

7 hours ago, direpupy said:

Syrax and Caraxes color can not be combined or stripped in to its base color in a way that would allow for the creation of the color gold. Since the theory i worked off of was that the colors of the parents have to able to make the colors of the offspring this never came up for me. You could be right but only if the colors of a dragon are random.

While your theory seems to work there are other possibilities of course for how dragon colouration is determined. As in humans where eye colour is fairly straight forward Mendelian inheritance there is still variation in the shades - most of my family are grey-eyed but there are lots of variation within it. And then hair colour and skin colour are from a multitude of genes, and I expect a multitude of genes are responsible for dragon colouration.

One could explore an hypothesis that each aspect of a dragon’s colouration is a separate gene - eg. eyes, scales, horns, crests, wing membranes, claws. I’ll take a look and see if that is in any way workable. Of course assuming that magical creatures in a fantasy world even follow anything like our laws of inheritance! 

 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

George didn't really resolve most of the issues we have with dragon logistics. He sort of fixed the Aegon-Quicksilver issue but it actually makes no sense for Quicksilver to be in KL when Aegon claims him (we last saw a riderless Quicksilver on Dragonstone at Aenys' funeral), and the Targaryens moving around riderless dragons is odd and confusing. Balerion returns to KL with Aerea, so it makes sense to have him there, but them bothering to move a riderless Vhagar to the Dragonpit is weird ... as it is the fact that they apparently got Dreamfyre back from Harrenhal and Vermithor from KL to Dragonstone (where is in 129 AC). Silverwing would have been there when Alysanne died there, but Jaehaerys I died in the Red Keep.

If we’re to accept that Jaehaerys and Alysanne took half a dozen dragons to Winterfell then moving around riderless dragons is possible. Presumably Daenerys and/or Drogon will have the same influence over Rhaegal and Viserion if they’re to be moved to Westeros without both having riders. 
On the other hands, dragons may be attracted to other dragons, or Targaryens, or familiar environments, and Dreamfyre returned from Harrenhal voluntarily after Rhaena’s death. 

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2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

I didn’t think there was mention of dragons reproducing asexually but it could certainly be the case - they may just assume they mate. I think the best chance of figuring out the lineages of the dragons accurately could be to focus on the maternal line of known egg-layers. 

I don't think that, either, but it is something that has to be considered ... or rather, the issue of the 'dragon father' has. We do know some dragons who produced eggs, meaning they are 'dragon mothers', but we have no idea how they do procreate.

The eggs could even be fertilized after the female lays them, for instance, meaning there wouldn't be a mating process as such - or the eggs from one clutch could be fertilized by different dragons, etc.

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

If we’re to accept that Jaehaerys and Alysanne took half a dozen dragons to Winterfell then moving around riderless dragons is possible.

We no longer accept that since that never happened. Only Silverwing and later Vermithor were at Winterfell. The idea that there were six dragons is about as accurate as the claim that Alysanne grew bored at Winterfell while Jaehaerys had business with the Lord Stark and flew to the Wall on her own. Jaehaerys was still stuck at KL and had things to sort out with some Free Cities.

That's the story as it was told in the North growing in the telling.

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Presumably Daenerys and/or Drogon will have the same influence over Rhaegal and Viserion if they’re to be moved to Westeros without both having riders. 

If they don't get riders they won't move to Westeros. They are both wild dragons with their own lairs now.

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

On the other hands, dragons may be attracted to other dragons, or Targaryens, or familiar environments, and Dreamfyre returned from Harrenhal voluntarily after Rhaena’s death. 

We know dragonriders can influence the dragons of their partners - like Daemon did with Vhagar when they flew back across the Narrow Sea. But moving riderless dragons around - especially very large ones - must be dangerous business, and it makes no sense that people like Maegor or Viserys I would do that without a good reason.

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd think technically two parents or else they would still be half-siblings.

That only makes it more confusing, i think the cousin thing might just be humans trying to make sence of dragons.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But we should not fool ourselves into believing two parents are necessary. We don't have a single description of an actual 'dragon mating' so it is entirely possible that she-dragons can and do self-fertilize. The only thing indicating some kind of mating ritual thing is that 'mating dance' people think may have gone on between Tessarion and Seasmoke at Second Tumbleton.

That's certainly an other option, and would be an alternative, sigh i just wish GRRM gave us more to go on.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think we can go with 'mixing colors' there. She-dragons seem to produce a variety of colors in their eggs if Syrax's get are an indication. Vermax, Arrax, and Tyraxes didn't look alike.

Actually we don't have a description of the colors of Vermax and Tyraxes, so for all we know they look exactly the same as Arrax. I also have never seen a description of the color of a single clutch so a single clutch might have matching colors or at least roughly similar colors for all we know.

 

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess a better way to assume this is that there is broader variety in that color scheme. Although I think some color traits might be more dominant than others - say, the silver trait in the Meraxes-Quicksilver-Silverwing line. Even something as exceptional as Sunfyre's golden scales could go back to Meraxes' golden eyes.

There is they option of colors skipping a generation in which case the colors of the other 4 dragons the Targaryens took to dragonstone with them become a factor, hell even there parents would be a factor then.

From eye color to the color of scales is a pretty big leap so i don't know about that one, seems a little far fetched.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And I'd also go with @The hairy bear's idea that Balerion's secondary color was indeed red. He had those red swirls in his fire ... and the Targaryen sigil is a red dragon of black, also reflecting this - the dominant part of the Targaryen colors is black, the red is only secondary (which you can also draw from Rhaenyra's faction being 'the Blacks' despite the fact that she wore red-and-black at that tourney.

I get where the idea comes from, but the problem is that he is consistently described as all Black.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We hear of young dragons in the Dragonpit. Not hatchlings, yes, but young dragons, so this isn't conclusive.

Quicksilver was still called a young dragon when he/she was roughly 30 years old, so young dragon and hatchling do seem to be different things.

 

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

George didn't really resolve most of the issues we have with dragon logistics. He sort of fixed the Aegon-Quicksilver issue but it actually makes no sense for Quicksilver to be in KL when Aegon claims him (we last saw a riderless Quicksilver on Dragonstone at Aenys' funeral), and the Targaryens moving around riderless dragons is odd and confusing. Balerion returns to KL with Aerea, so it makes sense to have him there, but them bothering to move a riderless Vhagar to the Dragonpit is weird ... as it is the fact that they apparently got Dreamfyre back from Harrenhal and Vermithor from KL to Dragonstone (where is in 129 AC). Silverwing would have been there when Alysanne died there, but Jaehaerys I died in the Red Keep.

Common sense would indicate that dangerous dragons would be moved to the Dragonpit somehow ... but not our of there again. And the practice as per Viserys I's reign is to go to Dragonstone for hatchlings/young dragons, so what Jaehaerys I's children do is odd and makes more sense, in my opinion, if they actually had hatchlings young dragons there rather than moving them there by ship.

The moving the dragons around thing is weird, and i think George really did not think about this until it became a problem for the story which is why it does not always make sence.

 

5 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

I While your theory seems to work there are other possibilities of course for how dragon colouration is determined. As in humans where eye colour is fairly straight forward Mendelian inheritance there is still variation in the shades - most of my family are grey-eyed but there are lots of variation within it. And then hair colour and skin colour are from a multitude of genes, and I expect a multitude of genes are responsible for dragon colouration.

One could explore an hypothesis that each aspect of a dragon’s colouration is a separate gene - eg. eyes, scales, horns, crests, wing membranes, claws. I’ll take a look and see if that is in any way workable. Of course assuming that magical creatures in a fantasy world even follow anything like our laws of inheritance! 

Sure but that's a whole other theory, hell dragon colors could be completely random for all we know. There are so many possibilities.

And we actually already see some variation in shades if you look at all the silver dragons, we got white-silver and grey-silver, hell Quicksilvers name indicates metallic-silver

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

but we have no idea how they do procreate.

"At some point, Vermithor and Silverwing became a mated pair. During the Dance of the Dragons, Vermithor and Silverwing were said to often coil about one another in the fields."

I think they probably mated like most reptiles mated. 

Edited by ShimShim

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53 minutes ago, ShimShim said:

"At some point, Vermithor and Silverwing became a mated pair. During the Dance of the Dragons, Vermithor and Silverwing were said to often coil about one another in the fields."

I see this quote comes from the wiki. I believe it's wrong (and if no one corrects me on that one, I'm going to change it).

We are never told that Vermithor and Silverwing became a mated pair. And it's only at Tumbleton where Vermithor and Silverwing coiled about one another, without any indication that this had anything to do with mating, or that it was something that they did on a recurrent basis.

23 hours ago, direpupy said:

There is about two years between Rhaena recieving Syrax egg and the hatching of Morning

I don't think that's the case. We first hear of Rhaena having received an egg from Syrax during the Black Council, which took place at the 3rd moon of 129. And Aegon II receives news that Jeyne Arryn, Rhaena and Morning have assembled an army by the 12th moon of 130. But of course, Morning could have hatched much earlier in 130 or even in 129.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The eggs could even be fertilized after the female lays them, for instance, meaning there wouldn't be a mating process as such - or the eggs from one clutch could be fertilized by different dragons, etc.

 

That just seems to happen with the more porous aquatic eggs of fish (and perhaps some amphibians?) in real life. As far as I’m aware that there aren’t any cases of terrestrial eggs undergoing external fertilisation but I could be wrong and of course, magical fantasy. 
 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We no longer accept that since that never happened. Only Silverwing and later Vermithor were at Winterfell. The idea that there were six dragons is about as accurate as the claim that Alysanne grew bored at Winterfell while Jaehaerys had business with the Lord Stark and flew to the Wall on her own. Jaehaerys was still stuck at KL and had things to sort out with some Free Cities.

That's the story as it was told in the North growing in the telling.

Ah, my mistake. I thought that was still canon. 
I wouldn’t be so sure that non-ridden dragons can’t be moved though, I really don’t seen Rhaegal and Viserion both getting riders before Westeros. 

 

2 hours ago, ShimShim said:

At some point, Vermithor and Silverwing became a mated pair. During the Dance of the Dragons, Vermithor and Silverwing were said to often coil about one another in the fields."

I think they probably mated like most reptiles mated. 

I’m really not sure how helpful it is to look at real life reptiles in this situation. I’m not aware of any reptiles forming mated pairs so that could be an anthropomorphisation of dragon behaviour. It would still leave asexual reproduction a possibility, as is seen in the wonderfully named leaping lesbian lizard 

 

Edit: a google informs me that, while rare, some reptiles do form mated pairs 

Edited by Jaehaerys Tyrell

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think that's the case. We first hear of Rhaena having received an egg from Syrax during the Black Council, which took place at the 3rd moon of 129. And Aegon II receives news that Jeyne Arryn, Rhaena and Morning have assembled an army by the 12th moon of 130. But of course, Morning could have hatched much earlier in 130 or even in 129.

What we hear is that she received an egg from a clutch laid before the dance of dragons so in (late) 128 AC and Morning is still small enough to ride on Rhaena her shoulder when she comes back to Kingslanding after the war is over, so can not be more then a few months old. So its almost certainly two years or so close it makes little different's. 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I see this quote comes from the wiki. I believe it's wrong (and if no one corrects me on that one, I'm going to change it).

We are never told that Vermithor and Silverwing became a mated pair. And it's only at Tumbleton where Vermithor and Silverwing coiled about one another, without any indication that this had anything to do with mating, or that it was something that they did on a recurrent basis.

They exact wording is "oft coiled about" so it is something they did regularly, and there can't be many reasons why two dragons coil about each other.

But you are right that we are never explicitly told they are a mated pair, i searched and could not find a course for such a statement.

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2 hours ago, direpupy said:

They exact wording is "oft coiled about" so it is something they did regularly, and there can't be many reasons why two dragons coil about each other.

But you are right that we are never explicitly told they are a mated pair, i searched and could not find a course for such a statement.

They could be siblings? Or just in a symbiotic relationship, help each other hunt etc. I agree mated pair seems most likely but there could be other reasons they are close. I wasn’t aware that there was no actual canon confirmation that they were a mated pair, that’s interesting. 

Dragons do seem to reflect their rider’s moods, feelings and attachments. It’s possible they are not mated but just close due to the relationship between Jaehaerys and Alysanne.
 

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11 hours ago, direpupy said:

That only makes it more confusing, i think the cousin thing might just be humans trying to make sence of dragons.

Could be, but it is an actual comment from a in-universe, so it is definitely more important than fan speculation.

In fact, it is that kind of thing that caused me to note that 'the father question' should perhaps be toned down a bit. People would know which dragon produced a particular dragon egg, but they might not know who 'the dragon father' was.

In that sense, Silverwing and Vermithor definitely have to come from different maternal lines. Balerion could still be the father of either, I guess, but then he has to be a secret father.

But in light of sex switching and stuff we can also expect that dragons considered to be male produced eggs and, more important, dragons who are viewed as female because they produced eggs also fertilized eggs.

11 hours ago, direpupy said:

Actually we don't have a description of the colors of Vermax and Tyraxes, so for all we know they look exactly the same as Arrax. I also have never seen a description of the color of a single clutch so a single clutch might have matching colors or at least roughly similar colors for all we know.

So far all dragons are individuals and we have no indication that the various clutches of eggs the various she-dragons laid all looked alike. You can back to the eggs of the last dragon - five - some of which seem to have ended up with Maekar's children. And they are individual eggs, too.

11 hours ago, direpupy said:

There is they option of colors skipping a generation in which case the colors of the other 4 dragons the Targaryens took to dragonstone with them become a factor, hell even there parents would be a factor then.

Of course, and we should consider this. Or rather operate with that in light of the fact that Balerion and Meraxes/Vhagar definitely did produce dragons of very different colors.

11 hours ago, direpupy said:

From eye color to the color of scales is a pretty big leap so i don't know about that one, seems a little far fetched.

Well, it seems that gold was the 'secondary color' of Meraxes. Or at least it is the only other color but silver we know she had.

11 hours ago, direpupy said:

I get where the idea comes from, but the problem is that he is consistently described as all Black.

Yes, but we do have black fire with red swirls too for Drogon, so chances are pretty good that some minor parts of Balerion's body were red - eyes, perhaps, or crests, horns, etc. But Balerion is definitely predominantly black, that much is clear.

11 hours ago, direpupy said:

Quicksilver was still called a young dragon when he/she was roughly 30 years old, so young dragon and hatchling do seem to be different things.

Of course, the terms used for dragons of different ages are hatchlings, (young) drakes, and (young) dragons. But we do know that dragon eggs did hatch in KL. All the later cradle dragons would have hatched in KL since the royal children predominantly resided there - Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, and Tessarion all may have been KL dragons, Moondancer could have been a Driftmarkian dragon, just as Seasmoke may have been. Stormcloud may have been a Dragonstonian dragons since Rhaenyra definitely lived permanently on Dragonstone in the 120s. But back when her elder sons - especially Jace and Luke were born - she was still a resident of the Red Keep. And the eggs were given to the boys by a command of the king.

And with Morghul and Shrykos KL would also be the place where they hatched.

11 hours ago, direpupy said:

The moving the dragons around thing is weird, and i think George really did not think about this until it became a problem for the story which is why it does not always make sence.

In fact, some of those problems arise from George writing the Jaehaerys material last and not rewriting the material taking place later. Jaehaerys I has a kind of weird restrictive dragon policy - only three children get dragons - which is also sort of akin to the Conqueror's and Aenys' policy in this regard - who only gave Aenys and Rhaena dragons while also offering Maegor a dragon.

It could have worked much better if all/most of Jaehaerys I's children had had dragons and then the grandchildren and great-grandchildren took dragons from them. Or at least technically could have taken their dragons from them.

As things stand now, the cradle eggs thing should have more been something the first Targaryen kings did when they had very few dragons ... while in the later decades most Targaryens should bond with the dragons of their late grandparents or great-grandparents rather than throwing new eggs at the next generation. You would have one generation where dragons are mostly recycled and then another generation where hatchling/cradle eggs were given to children who were not likely to take over the dragons of the older generation.

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I see this quote comes from the wiki. I believe it's wrong (and if no one corrects me on that one, I'm going to change it).

We are never told that Vermithor and Silverwing became a mated pair. And it's only at Tumbleton where Vermithor and Silverwing coiled about one another, without any indication that this had anything to do with mating, or that it was something that they did on a recurrent basis.

We definitely don't know, but chances are not that bad that if Silverwing produced eggs - we should assume since she is identified as a female - that Vermithor is 'the father' because they were both housed in the Red Keep, meaning separate - for the most part, at least - from the other dragons.

But as I already said, we can assume that Silverwing couldn't have had produced any fresh, viable eggs in the years leading up the Shivers, or else Jaehaerys I wouldn't have called on Dragonstone to provide his daughter with a hatchling. Instead, Daenerys would already have had a (dragon) egg.

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think that's the case. We first hear of Rhaena having received an egg from Syrax during the Black Council, which took place at the 3rd moon of 129. And Aegon II receives news that Jeyne Arryn, Rhaena and Morning have assembled an army by the 12th moon of 130. But of course, Morning could have hatched much earlier in 130 or even in 129.

Morning would have have hatched very late in 130 AC. Remember that Rhaenyra's main motivation to return to Dragonstone was to get more dragons. And she exchanged letters with Jeyne Arryn, so if Morning had already been around when she left Duskendale she would have known about that - and then she would have likely accompanied her people to the Vale rather than returning to Dragonstone or at least the fact that the Blacks had a new dragon would have been mentioned. In that sense we can pin down Morning's hatching at shortly after Rhaenyra leaving Duskendale for Dragonstone or around that time (because a letter about this happy news may have arrived at Duskendale very shortly after Rhaenyra left the town).

8 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:
That just seems to happen with the more porous aquatic eggs of fish (and perhaps some amphibians?) in real life. As far as I’m aware that there aren’t any cases of terrestrial eggs undergoing external fertilisation but I could be wrong and of course, magical fantasy. 

Yes, the idea there was 'magical fantasy' based on the fact that nobody did record an actual dragon mating - which should be a tremendously interesting sight, especially if it involves huge beasts like Vhagar and Balerion - as well as there being apparently no way differentiate between a male and female dragon aside from 'it produced eggs, so it must be female'.

If there was external fertilization then dragons could go about this in a more subtle way, say, either the same dragon who produced the eggs or some fellow dragon from the Dragonpit or the dragon yards/pits on Dragonstone could sneak up and fertilize those eggs while nobody is looking.

After all, if you think about those huge monstrous dragons then their genitals must have been monstrous, too. Yet their private parts must look so alike to human eyes that they cannot say if they are male or female.

They could also have internal genitals, of course, and their mating habits could be very private, taking place only at night or in the darkness of a cave, etc.

8 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Ah, my mistake. I thought that was still canon. 
I wouldn’t be so sure that non-ridden dragons can’t be moved though, I really don’t seen Rhaegal and Viserion both getting riders before Westeros. 

Oh, they will. There is a reason why Dragonbinder is in Slaver's Bay right now, just as there is a reason why we do have Brown Ben Plumm there, who definitely is a potential dragonrider. And Tyrion, too, of course, either because he is actually Aerys' bastard or because he can become a dragonrider with the help of the magical horn.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be, but it is an actual comment from a in-universe, so it is definitely more important than fan speculation.

I actually looked up the quite in the books itself and its not specifically Vermithor that is called Silverwings cousin, but rather its a generic term to describe all the other dragons at Tumbleton who died, below the quote from The Princess and the Queen.

One remained: Silverwing, Good Queen Alysanne’s mount in days of old, had taken to the sky as the carnage began, circling the battlefield for hours, soaring on the hot winds rising from the fires below. Only after dark did she descend, to land beside her slain cousins. 

I makes me doubt Vermithor was here actual cousin. The generic use seems to implei  that people simply considered all dragons to be each others kin. And they are probably not entirely incorrect in that, since they all descend from just three dragons.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In that sense, Silverwing and Vermithor definitely have to come from different maternal lines. Balerion could still be the father of either, I guess, but then he has to be a secret father.

I already thought the had different mothers since i thought Vermithor came from Vhagar and Silverwing from Quicksilver.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But in light of sex switching and stuff we can also expect that dragons considered to be male produced eggs and, more important, dragons who are viewed as female because they produced eggs also fertilized eggs.

This really depends on Barth being right, but if he is it further complicates any attempt at finding out which dragon descents from which dragon.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

So far all dragons are individuals and we have no indication that the various clutches of eggs the various she-dragons laid all looked alike. You can back to the eggs of the last dragon - five - some of which seem to have ended up with Maekar's children. And they are individual eggs, too.

Actually several of the egg's that we have a description off have very similar colors just in different shades, and then there are dragons that share colors with unhatched egg's, so we can't say one way or they other on whether egg's from the same clutch looked alike.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, but we do have black fire with red swirls too for Drogon, so chances are pretty good that some minor parts of Balerion's body were red - eyes, perhaps, or crests, horns, etc. But Balerion is definitely predominantly black, that much is clear.

I don't know Drogon's having a red crest is always a part of his description why would it be different for Balerion? I think we have to stick to the in-universe description here of all black.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it seems that gold was the 'secondary color' of Meraxes. Or at least it is the only other color but silver we know she had.

From eye color to scale color is a pretty big leap if you ask me.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course, the terms used for dragons of different ages are hatchlings, (young) drakes, and (young) dragons. But we do know that dragon eggs did hatch in KL. All the later cradle dragons would have hatched in KL since the royal children predominantly resided there - Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, and Tessarion all may have been KL dragons, Moondancer could have been a Driftmarkian dragon, just as Seasmoke may have been. Stormcloud may have been a Dragonstonian dragons since Rhaenyra definitely lived permanently on Dragonstone in the 120s. But back when her elder sons - especially Jace and Luke were born - she was still a resident of the Red Keep. And the eggs were given to the boys by a command of the king.

And with Morghul and Shrykos KL would also be the place where they hatched.

The cradle egg thing is a good point, and actually makes me wonder if that might not have anything to do with later dragons never becoming as big as those born on Dragonstone. A bad start can hamper you for the rest of your life after all.

Edited by direpupy

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3 hours ago, direpupy said:

I actually looked up the quite in the books itself and its not specifically Vermithor that is called Silverwings cousin, but rather its a generic term to describe all the other dragons at Tumbleton who died, below the quote from The Princess and the Queen.

One remained: Silverwing, Good Queen Alysanne’s mount in days of old, had taken to the sky as the carnage began, circling the battlefield for hours, soaring on the hot winds rising from the fires below. Only after dark did she descend, to land beside her slain cousins. 

I makes me doubt Vermithor was here actual cousin. The generic use seems to implei  that people simply considered all dragons to be each others kin. And they are probably not entirely incorrect in that, since they all descend from just three dragons.

There are different ways to read this.

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

I already thought the had different mothers since i thought Vermithor came from Vhagar and Silverwing from Quicksilver.

Yes, but you suggested that Balerion was the father of both which would make them half-siblings.

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

This really depends on Barth being right, but if he is it further complicates any attempt at finding out which dragon descents from which dragon.

Chances are pretty good that he is right on that one. Not that it matters at all how dragons procreate.

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

Actually several of the egg's that we have a description off have very similar colors just in different shades, and then there are dragons that share colors with unhatched egg's, so we can't say one way or they other on whether egg's from the same clutch looked alike.

Dany's three eggs look all different, as do the eggs of Egg and his siblings and the Butterwell egg.

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

I don't know Drogon's having a red crest is always a part of his description why would it be different for Balerion? I think we have to stick to the in-universe description here of all black.

The in-universe description isn't a description by the narrator or a POV, but a vague historical description. And the parallel with the description of the fire is pretty telling in my opinion. Balerion and Drogon's fires are both black with swirls of red ... and the fires of Dany's dragons reflect their coloring.

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

From eye color to scale color is a pretty big leap if you ask me.

It is the only secondary color we know of for Meraxes. And it seems that basically all dragons do have at least two colors. Even the Cannibal has green eyes.

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

The cradle egg thing is a good point, and actually makes me wonder if that might not have anything to do with later dragons never becoming as big as those born on Dragonstone. A bad start can hamper you for the rest of your life after all.

Not sure Quicksilver and Dreamfyre spent much time on Dragonstone in their youth. Vermithor and Silverwing did, though.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is the only secondary color we know of for Meraxes. And it seems that basically all dragons do have at least two colors. Even the Cannibal has green eyes.

This could be the case, although Silverwing is only described as silvery, Sheepstealer as muddy brown, Caraxes as red, and Syrax as yellow, to name a few. Also, if the wiki is correct, then Balerion’s fire only ‘occasionally’ has swirls of red, but perhaps only his eyes are red or something.

Also, the secondary colour appears to not appear on the same body parts between dragons, for example Rhaegal is described as ‘green and bronze’ but we are only ever told his eyes are bronze, not his crest, wing-bones or horns. This is interesting given how we are told that Drogon has red horns, a red crest, and red eyes, and Viserion gold horns, a gold crest, gold eyes and gold wing-bones. If Drogon’s wing-bones were also red I think we would have been told, as an example.

A dragons secondary colours seem to manifest differently between dragons, if they possess them at all. To link to the subject of hereditary inheritance of colours, I personally think dragon colours are random. Yes sometimes colours reappear a lot but if Dany’s dragons are from Dreamfyre’s stolen eggs, then we have a pale blue and silver dragon producing one black and red, one green and bronze and one cream and gold. The colour combinations and where the colours appear on the dragons just seem to random to follow any hereditary principle.

Given what we now know about Arrax’s colouration, we only have two dragons who have a specific colour for the scales on their chest/belly, Arrax with gold and Tessarion with copper. This again shows just how random dragon colouration, and where on the dragons these colours appear, can be.

Given how long it took George to decide on a colour for Vhagar and Arrax, I would say it’s unlikely he’s running with the colours being inherited. I think he just comes up with the colours randomly for each dragon based on what he imagines or wants, which is fine and allows for more variation and freedom. But it does suggest that in the Asoiaf universe, dragon colours are random.

Addition: I don’t think this means we shouldn’t bother trying to speculate about dragon lineages, just to clarify. The size and age of dragons can still help us decide on a family tree, however difficult it is. As with Syrax, George sometimes helps by telling us outright.

One last thing, I agree with what has been said regarding there being too many dragons during Jaehaerys’ reign that George didn’t account for by rewriting/ editing the later stories, mainly the dance. We hear of many young ‘drakes’ living on Dragonstone or in the dragonpit that just disappear from history, not to mention muddy the water on dragon lineage. My best guess is Cannibal wiped them all out except Sheepstealer and Grey Ghost, but it does seem odd on George’s part to establish that there were so many young dragons alive at that time, especially as we now know that most of Jaehaerys’ children didn’t claim dragons for some reason and of the three that did, one claimed Vhagar. So we have many previously unridden drakes just existing on Dragonstone and in the Dragonpit with Caraxes and Meleys being the only ones named and claimed.

Edited by TheTargaryenHistorian
Addition

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