Jump to content

Question about how the Kingsguard works


Canon Claude

Recommended Posts

There’s another discussion trending right now about the Kingsguard, specifically about which men Aerys would name to replace the men he lost at the Trident. Someone brought up Oberyn, but that just made me think Oberyn would never agree to that. But then that made me wonder about something else.

Across the books, we are told that the Kingsguard is a highly honoured and sought-after position. Men like Richard Horpe and Quentyn Ball aspired to be Kingsguard but were rejected. The Red Dog was a rebel before agreeing to join Jaehaerys’ Kingsguard. Robin Massey was chosen by an underage Aegon III, but his appointment was overruled by Unwin Peake. But as far as I know, I don’t think there’s been a case of king naming someone to the Kingsguard who doesn’t want the honour.

Has anyone ever refused to serve in the Kingsguard? Is that something which is even allowed? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I assume that sane king would not hire a bodyguard who would hate him. Or it would be very bad idea of choosing a knight as a KG without asking would he really want to become member of KG. So I think that usually new KGs are chosen only among those who really want to join to that brotherhood.

Totally another thing is that most lordlings who either already own land or are heirs with very good chances of inheriting some land would not give up that and an option of having their own family and so they would not volunteer as a KG. Naturally assuming that their name is not Jaime. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Has anyone ever refused to serve in the Kingsguard? Is that something which is even allowed?

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think anyone can turn it down once they've been nominated. Here's some text from a Jaime chapter that would suggest this is the case. 

Quote

A moon's turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak. 

Jaime was commanded to present himself to the king, it seems he had no choice once chosen. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think anyone can turn it down once they've been nominated. Here's some text from a Jaime chapter that would suggest this is the case. 

Jaime was commanded to present himself to the king, it seems he had no choice once chosen. 

Quote

By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.
A moon's turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak.

Considering that Cersei had to do something for Jaime being selected I think that a knight should apply for the job and then when he got the job he couldn’t deny.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Considering that Cersei had to do something for Jaime being selected I think that a knight should apply for the job and then when he got the job he couldn’t deny.

Yeah, Cersei was very influential in getting Jaime nominated. As was Aerys ever growing loathing (and perhaps jealousy) of Tywin. He knew nominating Jaime would hurt Tywin and his legacy. 

As for applications, I can see what you're saying and I agree it makes for a better system. However, I wonder if the sheer number of applicants would be too much. As the OP said, becoming a Kingsguard seems to be a dream many Westerosi men have. You could have 70% of the male population applying, lol.

I wonder as well if it may single out some who don't apply, the king taking offence so to speak. I could see Aerys having some weird grudge against someone like Ned not applying for example.

I kinda like the idea of the tourney to decide Sweetrobin's Winged Knights. It's an application of sorts, but any absence could easily be explained away by saying they couldn't make it or they were injured etc.  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

Has anyone ever refused to serve in the Kingsguard? Is that something which is even allowed? 

If the king wants you for his kingsguard, I highly doubt you'll be allowed to refuse. But on the other hand, why would a king want to be guarded by a guy who clearly doesn't want the job and would probably resent him for the forced appointment?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Has anyone ever refused to serve in the Kingsguard? Is that something which is even allowed? 

I don't think is allowed, Jaime did give his consent to Cersei, but Jaime was commanded by Aerys to become Kingsguard and Jaime himself was 15yo, thus a minor, yet Tywin could not refuse him.

I'd say that is given the honor, people are coerced into taking it, otherwise it's a huge insult to the king and we're entering in the "or else" field.

 

Quote

A moon’s turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak. Jaime’s investiture freed him from Lysa Tully. Elsewise, nothing went as planned. His father had never been more furious. He could not object openly— Cersei had judged that correctly— but he resigned the Handship on some thin pretext and returned to Casterly Rock, taking his daughter with him.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

There’s another discussion trending right now about the Kingsguard, specifically about which men Aerys would name to replace the men he lost at the Trident. Someone brought up Oberyn, but that just made me think Oberyn would never agree to that. But then that made me wonder about something else.

Across the books, we are told that the Kingsguard is a highly honoured and sought-after position. Men like Richard Horpe and Quentyn Ball aspired to be Kingsguard but were rejected. The Red Dog was a rebel before agreeing to join Jaehaerys’ Kingsguard. Robin Massey was chosen by an underage Aegon III, but his appointment was overruled by Unwin Peake. But as far as I know, I don’t think there’s been a case of king naming someone to the Kingsguard who doesn’t want the honour.

Has anyone ever refused to serve in the Kingsguard? Is that something which is even allowed? 

I don’t think a man can be forced to take the oath of the Kingsguard. The man must be willing.  
 

Oberyn is too much like the rogue prince.  A life away from the pleasures of the flesh is not appealing.  His reputation for cheating and poisoning would rule him out.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well there's Sandor. (AGoT Sansa V.)

"Your Grace," Littlefinger reminded the king. "If we might resume, the seven are now six. We find ourselves in need of a new sword for your Kingsguard."

Joffrey smiled. "Tell them, Mother."

"The king and council have determined that no man in the Seven Kingdoms is more fit to guard and protect His Grace than his sworn shield, Sandor Clegane."

"How do you like that, dog?" King Joffrey asked.

The Hound's scarred face was hard to read. He took a long moment to consider. "Why not? I have no lands nor wife to forsake, and who'd care if I did?" The burned side of his mouth twisted. "But I warn you, I'll say no knight's vows."

"The Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard have always been knights," Ser Boros said firmly.

"Until now," the Hound said in his deep rasp, and Ser Boros fell silent.

Perhaps he technically could decline, but he would have to publicly refuse the favor shown by the king and his regent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, TsarGrey said:

Why not? I have no lands nor wife to forsake, and who'd care if I did?" The burned side of his mouth twisted. "But I warn you, I'll say no knight's vows."

He’s still a kings guard right? Until death? Like Barriston? His vow was for life. Can a king dismiss someone’s vow?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jaime volunteered for the KG, and subsequently received a command when he had to present himself to the king to be invested in the order.

Nobody can be forced to join the KG. That would be ridiculous. Both because it is a chivalric order with a specific set of vows a man has to swear of his own free will, and because he king doesn't want to be protected by men who might harbor a grudge because he forced them to become celibate bodyguards serving for life...

Becoming a KG is certainly an honor - but not an honor everybody wants for oneself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

He’s still a kings guard right? Until death? Like Barriston? His vow was for life. Can a king dismiss someone’s vow?

If he actually took the KG vows, sure, I imagine he's still bound by them. And yes, I believe he can be released of his vows. They presumably were sworn to the king or Crown and included religious elements of the Seven. If the king agrees to release him from his vows and the High Septon annul them, I see no issue.

Here's what Tywin suggested Jaime. (ASoS Jaime VII.)

"It was poison that killed Joffrey, not sorcery." Lord Tywin glanced at Jaime's stump again. "You cannot serve in the Kingsguard without a sword hand—"

"I can," he interrupted. "And I will. There's precedent. I'll look in the White Book and find it, if you like. Crippled or whole, a knight of the Kingsguard serves for life."

"Cersei ended that when she replaced Ser Barristan on grounds of age. A suitable gift to the Faith will persuade the High Septon to release you from your vows. Your sister was foolish to dismiss Selmy, admittedly, but now that she has opened the gates—"

Of course there's disagreement about who the king actually is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime volunteered for the KG, and subsequently received a command when he had to present himself to the king to be invested in the order.

Nobody can be forced to join the KG. That would be ridiculous. Both because it is a chivalric order with a specific set of vows a man has to swear of his own free will, and because he king doesn't want to be protected by men who might harbor a grudge because he forced them to become celibate bodyguards serving for life...

Becoming a KG is certainly an honor - but not an honor everybody wants for oneself.

This makes Aerys sound quite sane.  If there is a need for essential workers in an unfriendly regime wouldn't it be perfect to really stick it to your arch nemesis and get a very talented and idealistic kid in for some serious training.  Brilliant, really.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

This makes Aerys sound quite sane.  If there is a need for essential workers in an unfriendly regime wouldn't it be perfect to really stick it to your arch nemesis and get a very talented and idealistic kid in for some serious training.  Brilliant, really.  

Aerys II was a moron to choose Jaime for a number of reasons ... but he was quite mad. But to be sure, Jaime was so stupid that a less mad king could actually have made Jaime his own creature. It was Aerys' paranoia taking a sudden mad turn from 'stealing Tywin's heir' to 'oh my god, now Tywin's heir is protecting me, he might kill me.'

But overall - stealing Jaime was actually no bad move. It got Tywin out of KL without forcing the king to physically destroy Tywin ... which he could have done, I guess, but did not want to do, apparently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect that kings guard members are chosen for the magic (or symbolism) they bring to the monarch. Look at the sigils or nicknames of the guards to understand why they were chosen (or rejected).

For instance, Quentyn Ball is associated with a fire ball, which I associate with the birth of dragons (although it could represent all of the magic portents connected to the comet in ASOIAF). When Daeron II rejected Quentyn's claim to a spot in the king's guard, the incident was a major factor in triggering the Blackfyre Rebellions and Quentyn supported Daemon's side - the Targaryen dynasty lost power and the Blackfyre dragon was born. In The Mystery Knight, we see Quentyn's (possible? probable? putative?) son, Glendon Flowers, rescue himself from false accusations and manipulation by Blackfyre people. He is exonerated with help from Dunk & Egg who are clearly Targaryen loyalists. I think this is a story of Bloodraven working with Dunk & Egg to correct the errors of the past in his work to shore up the Targaryen dynasty - Quentyn was rejected but Glendon will be embraced. Maybe we will see Glendon Flowers as a member of Egg's kings guard at some point. 

I believe that Sandor Clegane represents the night - possibly the Long Night. His service on Joffrey's kings guard may represent Joffrey's elevation to Night's King. Barristan departs and goes to Dany, bringing whatever element of magic Renly had hoped to acquire and subtracting that element from Joffrey's guard. Soon after Sandor deserts his oath, Joffrey dies and Jaime (the sun) returns as commander of the kings guard. 

(There's some kind of wordplay around wildfire and Willem Wylde, the guard who was given the spot that Quentyn Ball expected to fill. We see a lot of upended power relationships around the Battle of the Blackwater where wildfire is the decisive weapon in Joffrey's victory. Subsequently, low people are elevated with knighthoods and other honors awarded by the crown. Is the symbolism in pitting Ball against Wylde the same symbolism in contrasting regular fire vs. green wild fire? Jaime slayed Aerys to prevent Aerys from unleashing wildfire on the city. What do these examples tell us about the clashing powers between which a king can choose in order to hold or exercise power?) 

I suspect that House Darklyn's kings guard power has something to do with both the shields in their sigil (representing magical doors, in my opinion) and the black diamonds (which represent dragon's teeth). The wordplay on Dunk's name (dunkel = dark in German) and Brienne obtaining a painted shield from a Darklyn relative at Duskendale tells me that there is at least a symbolic link between House Darklyn and Dunk / Brienne. Brienne hires the shield painter (who is the sister of a guard at the city gate) after seeing a beautiful door she painted. Barristan is thematically linked to Dunk and Brienne in some ways ("Ser, my lady" = Selmy Dary?) and he turns out to be the man who was able to enter the Darklyn "door" and return through it with the kidnapped king. 

As for the notion of rejecting an offered appointment, that would be a good topic for a Dunk & Egg story or one of the upcoming histories of the Targaryens. So far, I think GRRM has been interested in exploring the choices made by the kings or queens or regents. He has explored the responses of the prospective guards only when they wanted an appointment but did not receive it.

Perhaps kings guard honors were offered in the same way that political appointments are conducted today: someone in the court would contact the knight and ask, "If an opening were available on the kings guard, would you be interested?" Only if the person expresses enthusiasm would the king make contact and command the person's presence for an investiture ceremony. In this way, there is never a public rejection of the proffered honor. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Seams said:

The wordplay on Dunk's name (dunkel = dark in German) and Brienne obtaining a painted shield from a Darklyn relative at Duskendale tells me that there is at least a symbolic link between House Darklyn and Dunk / Brienne. Brienne hires the shield painter (who is the sister of a guard at the city gate) after seeing a beautiful door she painted. Barristan is thematically linked to Dunk and Brienne in some ways ("Ser, my lady" = Selmy Dary?) and he turns out to be the man who was able to enter the Darklyn "door" and return through it with the kidnapped king

@Megorovahas an interesting (convincing) theory about Dunk's parentage linked to this 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Seams said:

I know. She and I have discussed this directly.

Glad to know 

What's your take on that? 

8 hours ago, Seams said:

I realize you are her #1 fan, Kathy Bates.

Oh no! Nothing like that. Just that most of her theories sound crackpot at first glance, but when you spend the time to go through it comprehensively, you'll be convinced and would even add a few supporting points to plug the rare holes. 

This said, some of her theories don't convince me yet. But I dislike the way some forum members ridicule her theories in a condescending way, as if they've got a secret copy of TWoW and ADoS already. I don't like her theories out of pity but out of sharing similar reactions from less courteous forum members and being convinced of its rationality. 

Plus she never starts a thread about her theories, just posts extensive texts in other threads, so it's difficult to just embed a thread link like I'd do for other topics. In fact, there are many other posters with more numerous convincing theories, but i don't tag them usually like Meg, just embed a link of their post or topic and be done with it 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/19/2021 at 9:59 PM, Seams said:

I believe that Sandor Clegane represents the night - possibly the Long Night.

May I ask why you think so? I think it fits, but I'd like to know your reasoning.

I say it fits, because Sandor can be connected to the death and winter. The night would fit with the general theme. And of course, my brain says that winter + death = the Long Night.

Sandor is a Cerberus figure (his nickname, coat of arms, being a guardian) and thus associated with Hades, the god of the dead and the king of the underworld. Winter is caused by the abduction of Persephone, who is obviously Sansa. Winter is associated with death and mourning.

ACoK, Catelyn II.

Winter comes for all of us, Catelyn thought. For me, it came when Ned died. It will come for you too, child, and sooner than you like. She did not have the heart to say it.

ADwD, The King's Prize.

Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that.

Persephone's captivity is mourned by her mother Demeter, the goddess of harvest and agriculture, who searches her with Hecate's torches. As she despairs, the earth does not produce. Demeter is naturally Catelyn, a daughter of the fertile riverlands ravaged by war who despairs the loss of her children. Catelyn is eventually resurrected as a fire wight by another fertility figure, Beric Dondarrion.

Beric reminds me of John Barleycorn, a personification of barley and beverages. John is harrowed by three men out of the West (three kings from the east in Robert Burns' version).

There were three men came out of the West
Their fortunes for to try
And these three men made a solemn vow:
John Barleycorn must die

Beric is killed by several westermen, and thrice by the Cleganes, whom he ruefully singles out. ASoS, Arya VII.

Lord Beric touched the spot above his left ear where his temple was caved in. "Here is where Ser Burton Crakehall broke helm and head with a blow of his mace." He unwound his scarf, exposing the black bruise that encircled his neck. "Here the mark the manticore made at Rushing Falls. He seized a poor beekeeper and his wife, thinking they were mine, and let it be known far and wide that he would hang them both unless I gave myself up to him. When I did he hanged them anyway, and me on the gibbet between them." He lifted a finger to the raw red pit of his eye. "Here is where the Mountain thrust his dirk through my visor." A weary smile brushed his lips. "That's thrice I have died at the hands of House Clegane. You would think that I might have learned . . ."

Of course, neither John or Beric just stay dead. Beric is also reminiscent of a scarecrow. The scarecrow wards the field, and so Beric fights for the people of riverlands against despoilers. ASoS Arya VI.

A scarecrow of a man, he wore a ragged black cloak speckled with stars and an iron breastplate dinted by a hundred battles.

Both Beric and Catelyn are reanimated with fire, which Sandor doesn't like. Sandor refuses to go out into the fire, where he has been fighting the men of Stannis, the purported champion of R'hllor. Tyrion takes the command of Sandor's men and leaves him behind. Sandor then turns up drunk in Sansa's room and offers to take her away. Sansa is scared of him and rejects the offer, and her captivity continues. Sandor later captures another Stark girl, Arya, whom he means to take to her mother. ASoS, Arya IX.

"Stupid blind little wolf bitch." His voice was rough and hard as an iron rasp. "Bugger Joffrey, bugger the queen, and bugger that twisted little gargoyle she calls a brother. I'm done with their city, done with their Kingsguard, done with Lannisters. What's a dog to do with lions, I ask you?" He reached for his waterskin, took a long pull. As he wiped his mouth, he offered the skin to Arya and said, "The river was the Trident, girl. The Trident, not the Blackwater. Make the map in your head, if you can. On the morrow we should reach the kingsroad. We'll make good time after that, straight up to the Twins. It's going to be me who hands you over to that mother of yours. Not the noble lightning lord or that flaming fraud of a priest, the monster." He grinned at the look on her face. "You think your outlaw friends are the only ones can smell a ransom? Dondarrion took my gold, so I took you. You're worth twice what they stole from me, I'd say. Maybe even more if I sold you back to the Lannisters like you fear, but I won't. Even a dog gets tired of being kicked. If this Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he'll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, though he may not know it yet. Maybe I'll even kill Gregor for him, he'd like that."

Were Sansa to go with the Hound, would he try to return her too?

Sandor suits well with the Starks. Robb is hailed as the King of Winter like his ancestors, who are buried in subterranean crypt which Catelyn (Demeter) is glad to let them keep. ASoS, Catelyn IV.

Let the kings of winter have their cold crypt under the earth, Catelyn thought. The Tullys drew their strength from the river, and it was to the river they returned when their lives had run their course.

Seems to me that the Starks have aspects reminiscent of Hades. Cerberus is Hades' servant, and thus it's natural for Sandor to associate with the Starks. However, the Starks may not be the only ones cast in the role. Hades tricks Persephone to eat pomegranate seeds, and thus she must return to the underworld for the duration of winter. Sansa however rejects the pomegranate offered by Littlefinger. ASoS, Sansa VI.

Petyr cut a pomegranate in two with his dagger, offering half to Sansa. "You should try and eat, my lady."

"Thank you, my lord." Pomegranate seeds were so messy; Sansa chose a pear instead, and took a small delicate bite.

If Joffrey is elevated to Night's King, I guess he would be third contender for the role. This would suit with the Hound's service to him and Sansa's imprisonment in his court.

Persephone is the goddess of spring and nature, but also the queen of the Underworld, whose name must not be spoken. Sansa also goes by alias as Alayne Stone.

The Hound is 'dead' and at rest. Perhaps he's returned to Hades, like Cerberus after being captured by Heracles?

So would you share why you believe Sandor represents the night? I guess he is associated with darkness, being one of the shadows seen by Bran and claiming to be a terror in the dark before dueling Beric, but I don't know about the night per se.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/18/2021 at 5:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jaime volunteered for the KG, and subsequently received a command when he had to present himself to the king to be invested in the order.

Nobody can be forced to join the KG. That would be ridiculous. Both because it is a chivalric order with a specific set of vows a man has to swear of his own free will, and because he king doesn't want to be protected by men who might harbor a grudge because he forced them to become celibate bodyguards serving for life...

Becoming a KG is certainly an honor - but not an honor everybody wants for oneself.

Basically this. If a man has a wife or wants a wife, being a KG would not appeal to many.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...