Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Lilac & Gooseberries

Lord Bloodraven’s name.

Recommended Posts

When it comes to Bloodraven we know that among all amazing things this astounding man had done is that he was in love with Shiera Seastar and had asked her to marry him at least half a hundred times. In a seemingly unconnected matter we have seen that Elaena and Alyn Velaryon had twin bastards, Jon and Jeyne. Jon was a great knight and he had trueborn descendants with the name of Longwaters to hide their ancestor’s bastard status. With those two in mind if Bloodraven needed to have a name of his own to hide the circumstances of his birth which name do you believe that he might had chosen?

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brynden Bloodraven is off the table? If it is then something conected to his greenseeing powers and likely very stupid (everyone chooses something stupid when chosing their own name, save Davos) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I were a legitimate son of Brynden Rivers I might just take Bloodraven as my family name.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not simple to hide the birth of a Targaryen bastard.  People keep up with such things.  A new name would cause people to suspect.  He should bribe a needy family like the Westerlings to cover for the circumstances of his birth and use their name.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

It's not simple to hide the birth of a Targaryen bastard.  People keep up with such things.  A new name would cause people to suspect.  He should bribe a needy family like the Westerlings to cover for the circumstances of his birth and use their name.  

I don’t mean to hide a potential son the same way Jon was hiding within the Starks. But like how the descendants of Jon Waters had the name Longwaters to signify their own true born nature.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brynden Targaryen

Quote

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. "A bastard cannot inherit."
"Not unless he's legitimized by a royal decree," said Robb. "There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."
"Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V

So his name would no longer be Rivers... as being legitimized gave him the right to use the Targaryen name.

Quote

If I had a tail, the Bastard would have cut it off. The thought came unbidden, a vile thought, dangerous. His lordship was not a bastard anymore. Bolton, not Snow. The boy king on the Iron Throne had made Lord Ramsay legitimate, giving him the right to use his lord father's name. Calling him Snow reminded him of his bastardy and sent him into a black rage. Reek must remember that. And his name, he must remember his name. For half a heartbeat it eluded him, and that frightened him so badly that he tripped on the steep dungeon steps and tore his breeches open on the stone, drawing blood. Little Walder had to shove the torch at him to get him back on his feet and moving again.

A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

Also, for the record, I wouldn't call him amazing.  He is probably the biggest villain of the series.

Edited by Mourning Star

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Also, for the record, I wouldn't call him amazing.  He is probably the biggest villain of the series.

I don't see how Bloodraven is a villain.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Also, for the record, I wouldn't call him amazing.  He is probably the biggest villain of the series.

He used the Rivers name even after Aegon legitimised him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I don't see how Bloodraven is a villain.

I would suggest that he is responsible for the return of the Others.

His intention with Bran is likely to take his body after building up his powers. As we learned form Varamyr the magic powers of skinshifting (and presumably of a greenseer) are attached to the body, not the soul. And, Bloodraven was not the Three Eyed Crow from Bran's dream, he was the brooding weirwood.

Bloodraven passed the sentence of execution without swinging the sword himself, he committed incest with Seastar, kinslaying by killing Blackfyres, broke his oath and guest right by killing Aenys, and is a deserter from the Night's Watch after 13 years as lord commander. I would even suggest that he called the Great Council with the intent of having himself crowned king.

"Bloodraven is the root of all our woes, the white worm gnawing at the heart of the realm."

He is the dark lord watching all with his one red eye!

Quote

"Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Note how this is the opposite of Ned's advise from the stories beginning?

Quote

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"
"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

And what Nan said about the darkness?

Quote

"Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

Fear is for the darkness.

And about the Night's King?

Quote

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

Bloodraven is our new Night's King.

Quote

He used the Rivers name even after Aegon legitimised him.

"I wore many names when I was quick"

Edited by Mourning Star

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I would suggest that he is responsible for the return of the Others.

I don't know think so. I believe that Bloodraven is a guardian, he may not be all cuddly and cute but he takes care and protect the Starks.

15 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I would even suggest that he called the Great Council with the intent of having himself crowned king.

Do you based that on something?

17 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

"I wore many names when I was quick"

Brynden Rivers, Lord Bloodraven, The white worm,Lord Rivers, Ser, Master of whisperers, Hand of the King, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Maynard Plumm. He had many names.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I don't know think so. I believe that Bloodraven is a guardian, he may not be all cuddly and cute but he takes care and protect the Starks.

Who did he protect? Not Ned, not Rob and not Winterfell...

Quote

Do you based that on something?

Why else call the council?

He was king in all but name already, had been for years and could have continued as such for a baby (the rightful heir) Maegor. Valella was simple minded (and a woman), and Egg was "half a peasant", seen as "unlikely" and unsuitable.

Quote

"You have forgotten Prince Rhaegel, my friend," Ser Maynard objected, in a mild tone. "He comes next in line to Aerys, not Maekar, and his children after him."
"Rhaegel is feeble-minded. Why, I bear him no ill will, but the man is good as dead, and those twins of his as well, though whether they will die of Maekar's mace or Bloodraven's spells…" Seven save us, Dunk thought as Egg spoke up shrill and loud. "Prince Maekar is Prince Rhaegel's brother. He loves him well. He'd never do harm to him or his."

The Mystery Knight

Have you looked at the fates of the Targaryens leading up to the great council, those mentioned above included? 

In a generation they went from so many that they had Aemon become a Maeser to a fourth son of a fourth son becoming king.

Quote

In 233 AC, hundred of lords great and small assembled in King's Landing. With both of Maekar's elder sons deceased, there were four possible claimants. The Great Council dismissed Prince Daeron's sweet but simple-minded daughter Vaella immediately. Only a few spoke up for Aerion Brightflame's son Maegor; an infant king would have meant a long, contentious regency, and there were also fears that the boy might have inherited his father's cruelty and madness. Prince Aegon was the obvious choice, but some lords distrusted him as well, for his wanderings with his hedge knight had left him "half a peasant," according to many. Enough hated him, in fact, that an effort was made to determine whether his elder brother Maester Aemon might be released from his vows, but Aemon refused, and nothing came of it.

TWOIAF

There were four possible claimants, but Aemon was conspicuously not one of them.

After all, the offer was made to Aemon in secret.

Quote

"That was the year of the Great Council," he said. "The lords passed over Prince Aerion's infant son and Prince Daeron's daughter and gave the crown to Aegon."
"Yes and no. First they offered it, quietly, to Aemon. And quietly he refused. The gods meant for him to serve, not to rule, he told them. He had sworn a vow and would not break it, though the High Septon himself offered to absolve him. Well, no sane man wanted any blood of Aerion's on the throne, and Daeron's girl was a lackwit besides being female, so they had no choice but to turn to Aemon's younger brother—Aegon, the Fifth of His Name. Aegon the Unlikely, they called him, born the fourth son of a fourth son. Aemon knew, and rightly, that if he remained at court those who disliked his brother's rule would seek to use him, so he came to the Wall. And here he has remained, while his brother and his brother's son and his son each reigned and died in turn, until Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of the Dragonkings."
"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

I would suggest that Bloodraven was the 4th possible claimant.

Quote

Brynden Rivers, Lord Bloodraven, The white worm,Lord Rivers, Ser, Master of whisperers, Hand of the King, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Maynard Plumm. He had many names.

Yes, he most certainly did.

But, perhaps after all the "sacrifices" Bloodraven made for the realm he felt he deserved to be king, and deserved his father's name.

Edited by Mourning Star

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

He used the Rivers name even after Aegon legitimised him.

See now this here is where I can muster some respect for the name Bloodraven chose for himself.   There is humility (in my humble estimation) in a legitimized royal bastard not changing anything at all to identify himself.  He could have chosen any number of linked or even cool names, but didn't change a thing at all.  This speaks of a man very comfortable in his identity and place in the world.   He seemed to reject both Blackwood and Targaryan or even Darksister if Daemon's nomenclature points to anything at all.  This is exactly where a bastard can rise high in Westeros.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

/Who did he protect? Not Ned, not Rob and not Winterfell...

 

He most likely sent them the wolves Ghost's colours cannot be a coincidence and Robb chained Grey Wind up. 

22 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Why else call the council?

He called for a Great council because ever since Jaehaerys that is what happens when the inheritance is not clear. If he wanted the Throne he could had it he had the power at least he had the magical power. But he seems to be a man of duty from the beginning. He had chosen to be a supporter rather than a ruler he had chosen to work to help the Realm not to rule the Realm. He was like the unpopular PM who get shit done and saves people and everyone hate him because he isn’t all cute and cuddly.

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

See now this here is where I can muster some respect for the name Bloodraven chose for himself.   There is humility (in my humble estimation) in a legitimized royal bastard not changing anything at all to identify himself.  He could have chosen any number of linked or even cool names, but didn't change a thing at all.  This speaks of a man very comfortable in his identity and place in the world.   He seemed to reject both Blackwood and Targaryan or even Darksister if Daemon's nomenclature points to anything at all.  This is exactly where a bastard can rise high in Westeros.   

I really like this one.  It looks like a deep understanding of Bloodraven’s mentality and soul. He was a down to earth, knew his place in the world, and knew his powers and he was fine with that.  He was willing to do what needed to be done while he knew the price he had to pay, to be hated and feared. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:
He most likely sent them the wolves Ghost's colours cannot be a coincidence and Robb chained Grey Wind up. 

He called for a Great council because ever since Jaehaerys that is what happens when the inheritance is not clear. If he wanted the Throne he could had it he had the power at least he had the magical power. But he seems to be a man of duty from the beginning. He had chosen to be a supporter rather than a ruler he had chosen to work to help the Realm not to rule the Realm. He was like the unpopular PM who get shit done and saves people and everyone hate him because he isn’t all cute and cuddly.

I really like this one.  It looks like a deep understanding of Bloodraven’s mentality and soul. He was a down to earth, knew his place in the world, and knew his powers and he was fine with that.  He was willing to do what needed to be done while he knew the price he had to pay, to be hated and feared. 

Though there is plenty of evidence pointing at some force of the old gods being connected to the Starks, who seem to be gatekeepers, I'm not sure which force is behind the odd occurrences.  Oddly, I do get where he spies and interjects and influences from the ravens.   I'm not saying you're wrong, only that I walk the fence about the extent of his power and interest in all this weirdness.  Bloodraven was a proven law and order guy and loyal to a fault.  I don't think it was an accident he was sent to the Wall, set up new shop under a no doubt much more vigilant command.  His disappearance and all?  I don't know.  If there was a way to know one's fate I think Bloodraven would have chosen to end up wed to the tree, ancient beyond his natural years, with mushrooms growing on his scalp or skull.  He was a hardliner, but he was righteous in his thinking.   Greater good and all that.  Indeed Lord Bloodraven could have taken the throne for himself had he actually wanted it.  He proved time and time again rule wasn't his interest at all.   He was a gatekeeper, too.  My eyes are drawn to you parting statement about being hated and feared.   I think it only mattered insofar as people's reactions served his purpose.  This is a magical cat I can read about forever.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/23/2021 at 2:54 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:
He most likely sent them the wolves Ghost's colours cannot be a coincidence and Robb chained Grey Wind up. 

I highly doubt he sent the dire wolves.

Quote

He called for a Great council because ever since Jaehaerys that is what happens when the inheritance is not clear. If he wanted the Throne he could had it he had the power at least he had the magical power. But he seems to be a man of duty from the beginning. He had chosen to be a supporter rather than a ruler he had chosen to work to help the Realm not to rule the Realm. He was like the unpopular PM who get shit done and saves people and everyone hate him because he isn’t all cute and cuddly.

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't agree.

I don't think he does help the realm. His time in power sees wars, plagues, drought and famine. He is even described as a rider on a pale horse! Not only that, people who speak against him are literally strung up on the side of the road. It seems more of a reign of terror than a happy kingdom.

Rather than a practical "do what it takes" sort, I see more of a Machiavellian grasp on power.

But we obviously have relatively little to work with either way.

What really is striking to me is how he embodies the opposite of what Ned Stark stood for, and the lessons he taught his children. It's hard for me to believe this contrast is unintentional.

Casting the sentence and swinging the sword / ticking names off a list

Only be brave when you are afraid / do not fear the darkness

Mercy is never a mistake / pardoning rebels only plants the seeds of rebellion

Wiling to die to save his family / Kinslayer

I'm not saying he doesn't have motives but I do think it is worth questioning his morality through the lessons in the story itself.

Also, it's extremely hard to get past seeing his layer as the danger in Bran's falling dream once you see it:

Quote

Because winter is coming.
Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.
"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Those jagged blue white spires of ice are the frozen Weirwoods in the grove above Bloodraven's cave:

Quote

Something about the way the raven screamed sent a shiver running up Bran's spine. I am almost a man grown, he had to remind himself. I have to be brave now.
But the air was sharp and cold and full of fear. Even Summer was afraid. The fur on his neck was bristling. Shadows stretched against the hillside, black and hungry. All the trees were bowed and twisted by the weight of ice they carried. Some hardly looked like trees at all. Buried from root to crown in frozen snow, they huddled on the hill like giants, monstrous and misshapen creatures hunched against the icy wind.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

And inside of Bloodraven's cave are a thousand other dreamers impaled upon the roots of those trees:

Quote

"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

 

Edited by Mourning Star

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't say whether he is good or bad, but there is definitely something mysterious about Bloodraven.

I lean toward him being a dark figure, but honestly I am really not sure (yet).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...