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UK Politics: Oh Ambassador you are really spoiling us!


Heartofice

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The HS2 protests are kind of wild to read about:

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Digging activities mostly took place at night, underneath the cover of a tent, with the earth being smuggled out. Somehow, despite it taking place next to one of London’s main railway terminals, no one detected the activity.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/27/hs2-protesters-hope-to-occupy-euston-tunnel-for-weeks

“You were tunnelling? The hole time? The hole time? The hole time?!”

 

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2 hours ago, Padraig said:

I see what you are saying but that caveat assumes that the EU were blind to the reality that they were lower down the priority list (since they knew others had already signed a deal), or they were aware of it and they didn't care.

In other words, "you are entitled to 10m doses in February once we have completely filled our other orders".  That's a huge caveat.

I find that dubious.  But if true, somebody is probably going to get fired!

Edited to add.  I think the EU is the only major country/organisation to order the Curevac vaccine, so same caveats wouldn't apply.

I think Fragile Bird has explained it.  AZ has a commitment to provide the UK with the first x number of doses, signed in advance of its contract with the EU. Thus, it has no option other than to provide the UK with that x number of doses.

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11 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I've got no problem with us demanding the first 'however many it takes to protect our vulnerable'. But if we are hoarding for healthy 50 year olds while people in the EU are still dying in their droves that would just be the most Tory thing ever, strangely being cunts in these circumstances will probably be a vote winner for them. 

Nationalism is pretty much always a vote winner, which is why I would not be surprised to see the UK parliament totally unified in its demand that the UK contract be giving priority, whether it's legit under contract law or not. Nationalism is also not the preserve of the right. 

I am not a nationalist, which is why I am more than happy, nay I demand, that countries suffering significant disease and death under this pandemic get the vaccine first, and that we sit patiently and wait. I would advocate for some kind of proportionate distribution based on population and burden of disease, but clearly the nationalistic approach of the more wealthy parts of the world has put paid to any pesky demands for equitable distribution.

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20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 AZ has a commitment to provide the UK with the first x number of doses, signed in advance of its contract with the EU. Thus, it has no option other than to provide the UK with that x number of doses.

Then it should be in the EU's contract.   How is this complicated?  I'm not a lawyer but one contract surely doesn't clearly take precedence over the other unless both contracts explicitly says so.  (There is no point the UK contract saying it takes precedence over the EU contract if the EU contract doesn't agree.  That would be fraud, I imagine).

You basically restated my post except it missed that huge caveat.   The only way your argument works is if the EU signed a contract which implicitly gave UK first dibs (ljkeane's argument).  Its possible I suppose but the EU are very vocally dismissive of that idea. 

Anyhow, you should read Joanna's post.  2 posts above yours.

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1 minute ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Nationalism is pretty much always a vote winner, which is why I would not be surprised to see the UK parliament totally unified in its demand that the UK contract be giving priority, whether it's legit under contract law or not. Nationalism is also not the preserve of the right. 

I am not a nationalist, which is why I am more than happy, nay I demand, that countries suffering significant disease and death under this pandemic get the vaccine first, and that we sit patiently and wait. I would advocate for some kind of proportionate distribution based on population and burden of disease, but clearly the nationalistic approach of the more wealthy parts of the world has put paid to any pesky demands for equitable distribution.

Well said.

I accept that its not like the UK isn't battling a very bad situation.  It has been hit very hard by COVID.

I and everyone here needs to think about whether our arguments are based on reading what we want to hear and not the truth (however unsatisfactory).  We don't have to look very far at how destructive the former is.

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44 minutes ago, Padraig said:

Well said.

I accept that its not like the UK isn't battling a very bad situation.  It has been hit very hard by COVID.

I and everyone here needs to think about whether our arguments are based on reading what we want to hear and not the truth (however unsatisfactory).  We don't have to look very far at how destructive the former is.

I must qualify my previous statement to say that I am an irredeemable nationalist when it comes to sports. That's a hard one to shake off.

 

I mean...

https://in.style.yahoo.com/bbc-interview-yvette-amos-xrated-sex-toy-111019916.html

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BBC guest goes viral after viewers spot X-rated detail

Seems unlikely that one would put a dildo on a bookshelf unintentionally in the vicinity of one's at home workspace. But perhaps she likes it to be in easy reach and just forgot to take it off the shelf before the interview.

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7 hours ago, ljkeane said:

They might not of course. But it does seem that the UK's been expecting the majority of it's supply of Astrazeneca's vaccine to be supplied by the plants in the UK for some time (they were certainly referring to it back in December) and Astrazeneca seems to be sticking to that in the face of some pressure. I think it's reasonable to suspect that the UK's got something in it's contract giving it priority access up to a certain amount to the vaccine manufactured in the UK. If that's not the case I'd say Astrazeneca probably is on thinner ice.

ETA: I would say that Gove was very firm today that the UK would be receiving the 'planned, paid for and scheduled' deliveries. He waffled a bit when asked whether any vaccine was going to be exported to the EU. So I don't think it's a case of the UK just gets anything produced in the UK. If there's a surplus beyond what the UK has been promised I'd expect that will be sent to the EU.

Why is it reasonable to suspect that?  This is the tory government, who gave ferry contracts to companies without ferries.  Who are looking like their kids lunch contract was terribly vague.  I think the idea that the UK has put into the contract that they get priority to UK production sounds quite ridiculous.  Why would they put something like that in?  They do a deal, they expect it to be met, how its sourced would be AZ's issue.  

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5 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

 

Nationalism is pretty much always a vote winner, which is why I would not be surprised to see the UK parliament totally unified in its demand that the UK contract be giving priority, whether it's legit under contract law or not. Nationalism is also not the preserve of the right. 

I am not a nationalist, which is why I am more than happy, nay I demand, that countries suffering significant disease and death under this pandemic get the vaccine first, and that we sit patiently and wait. I would advocate for some kind of proportionate distribution based on population and burden of disease, but clearly the nationalistic approach of the more wealthy parts of the world has put paid to any pesky demands for equitable distribution.

We are suffering significant disease and death.  There is a route out of that, and the government is correct to pursue it.

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5 hours ago, Padraig said:

Then it should be in the EU's contract.   How is this complicated?  I'm not a lawyer but one contract surely doesn't clearly take precedence over the other unless both contracts explicitly says so.  (There is no point the UK contract saying it takes precedence over the EU contract if the EU contract doesn't agree.  That would be fraud, I imagine).

You basically restated my post except it missed that huge caveat.   The only way your argument works is if the EU signed a contract which implicitly gave UK first dibs (ljkeane's argument).  Its possible I suppose but the EU are very vocally dismissive of that idea. 

Anyhow, you should read Joanna's post.  2 posts above yours.

First come, first served,  is a principle in contract law.  Suppose I contracted to sell something to you, at a future date, then three months later, contracted to sell the same thing to someone else.  You’d still be entitled to force me to complete the sale to you, notwithstanding the later contract.  

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

First come, first served,  is a principle in contract law.  Suppose I contracted to sell something to you, at a future date, then three months later, contracted to sell the same thing to someone else.  You’d still be entitled to force me to complete the sale to you, notwithstanding the later contract.  

is it? this lawyer explicitly says it isn’t:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/28/astrazeneca-may-have-to-renegotiate-covid-vaccine-contracts-warn-experts

 

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He said: “Unless there is a term in the agreements that AstraZeneca must supply the UK first, any separate arrangement they have with the UK is probably irrelevant to the arrangement with the commission. It is not first come, first served.”

Which is exactly what Pod just said above. Both agreements would have to include the priority clause.

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33 minutes ago, Filippa Eilhart said:

is it? this lawyer explicitly says it isn’t:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/28/astrazeneca-may-have-to-renegotiate-covid-vaccine-contracts-warn-experts

 

Which is exactly what Pod just said above. Both agreements would have to include the priority clause.

In my example, I’d still be in breach of my contract with the second party.  That would not affect my obligation to the first party.  The first party is entitled to have the contract fulfilled, the second party is entitled to damages for loss.

AZ might or might not be in breach of their contract with the EU.  But, that would have no bearing on the fulfilment of the terms of their contract with the UK.

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9 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

 

Nationalism is pretty much always a vote winner, which is why I would not be surprised to see the UK parliament totally unified in its demand that the UK contract be giving priority, whether it's legit under contract law or not. Nationalism is also not the preserve of the right. 

I am not a nationalist, which is why I am more than happy, nay I demand, that countries suffering significant disease and death under this pandemic get the vaccine first, and that we sit patiently and wait. I would advocate for some kind of proportionate distribution based on population and burden of disease, but clearly the nationalistic approach of the more wealthy parts of the world has put paid to any pesky demands for equitable distribution.

Your moral superiority in hypothetically refusing the vaccines you don’t produce to alleviate a disease you’re not suffering from is noted and admired. Pat yourself on the back again. 

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Good piece from Stephen Bush on why the superior UK vaccine rollout (thus far anyway ...) was made possible by Brexit. But also the judgment, which I believe to be correct, that these successes will be worth far less overall than the costs of Brexit.

"A difficult truth for us Remainers is that the United Kingdom would not have been able to roll out coronavirus vaccines at a greater speed than the European Union had we stayed in the bloc."

The EU/UK vaccine supply row exposes the advantages of Brexit, but also its downsides

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26 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Good piece from Stephen Bush on why the superior UK vaccine rollout (thus far anyway ...) was made possible by Brexit. But also the judgment, which I believe to be correct, that these successes will be worth far less overall than the costs of Brexit.

"A difficult truth for us Remainers is that the United Kingdom would not have been able to roll out coronavirus vaccines at a greater speed than the European Union had we stayed in the bloc."

The EU/UK vaccine supply row exposes the advantages of Brexit, but also its downsides

Interesting that he also calls out the benefits of having a ‘heavily centralised health system’ as one of the reasons for the fast vaccine roll out.

I remember earlier last year, our heavily centralised health system being poorly compared to Germany’s less centralised system as one of the reasons we were doing so badly with things like PPE

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6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I remember earlier last year, our heavily centralised health system being poorly compared to Germany’s less centralised system as one of the reasons we were doing so badly with things like PPE

Yes, indeed. A few years ago the UK government took purchasing PPE away from the various NHS bodies and gave it to a single private company that was to deliver private sector efficiencies and economies of scale. When the pandemic came along, this turned out to have been a really bad idea.

 

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39 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Good piece from Stephen Bush on why the superior UK vaccine rollout (thus far anyway ...) was made possible by Brexit. But also the judgment, which I believe to be correct, that these successes will be worth far less overall than the costs of Brexit.

"A difficult truth for us Remainers is that the United Kingdom would not have been able to roll out coronavirus vaccines at a greater speed than the European Union had we stayed in the bloc."

The EU/UK vaccine supply row exposes the advantages of Brexit, but also its downsides

This statement, though, is based on the claim that 'it would not have been diplomatically possible' to opt out of the EMA approval process because the EMA was based in the UK. That strikes me as, at the very least, a debatable point on which to base a definitive statement that we 'would not have been able' to do what we have done.

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so the definition of best effort *is* different from Curevac, without any reference to "other purchasers:

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Best Reasonable Efforts” means(a)in the case of AstraZeneca, the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake or use in the development and manufacture of a Vaccine at the relevant stage of development or commercialization having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world but taking into account efficacy and safety;

and from a cursory glance there isn't such a reference anywhere in the text.

And it does include the UK in the definition of "EU manufacturing sites". It's also allowed to use non-EU sites if the Commission agrees.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_302

 

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also:

13.1.AstraZeneca. AstraZeneca represents, warrants and covenants to the Commission and the Participating Member States that:

it is not under any obligation, contractual or otherwise, to any Person or third party in respect of the Initial Europe Doses or that conflicts with or is inconsistent in any material respect with the terms of this Agreement or that would impede the complete fulfillment of its obligations under this Agreement;

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