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HBO Planning Dunk and Egg, Other Thrones-properties


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8 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Do tell.

Here is a cite on the Three Body Problem:
https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/three-body-problem-series-netflix-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-alexander-woo-1234755170/
It's also mentioned in there that D&D's deal with Netflix (the one that makes them exclusive to it) is "reportedly worth nine figures". This is the result of a bidding war over all the outlets that wanted D&D.

As for why HBO would want him, it's because he made their biggest show of all time, and they wanted more seasons of that show but he & Dan decided to end it. Just like how Vince Gilligan was given carte blanche by AMC for Better Call Saul after he made Breaking Bad. You might think HBO would change their mind after the complaints about the final season, but they only care about subscription numbers. The finale of Dexter was even more hated, but Scott Buck (who didn't even create that show, and was only showrunner during the most critically derided seasons) was picked by Marvel's TV division to create multiple shows for them (each of which was poorly received and only lasted one season). That's because people (other than me) kept watching Dexter all the way to the end.

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Getting back on topic, I wouldn't be opposed to them ..."rounding out" Dunk & Egg things that happened "off screen", which Martin never intended to give a novella treatment.  Case in point, that between the first and second novella, they sort of ride out the plague because they were in Dorne at the time, serving the mad Lady Vaith, and then visited young Master Aemon in Oldtown.  

I mean "a plague on the scale of the Black Death" is something they could devote another TV movie to, so they'd have four instead of three ready to go

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21 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

I saw a suggestion of Tom Hopper from Umbrella Academy as Dunk.

I'd think this series wouldn't need 10 episodes a season.  4 to 6 might be the right length, and they'd still need to flesh it out doing at least 2 D&E stories per season.

First season could be The Hedge Knight plus whatever happened in Dorne, though I think in the novellas that happens after The Sworn Sword.

This seems like it would be better as a series of movies.

Hopper was already in Game of Thrones as the second Dickon Tarly. It would be a bit weird to cast him again.

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8 hours ago, Werthead said:

I really don't think so. That's thinking too small for HBO.

I can see HBO doing this as follows for Season 1: 3-4 episode adaption of The Hedge Knight, 2-part new adventure on the road to Dorne, 4-6 new adventure (but based on GRRM outline) about Dunk & Egg in Dorne. Then open Season 2 with The Sworn Sword and close it with The Mystery Knight, with new adventures filling in the interim.

I guess that could work to a point. But if they were to continue after TMK in some fashion George better publishes whatever outlines he has for the novellas in the missing volume(s) of FaB. It cannot happen that we get the ending of another of his works in a (potentially shitty as hell) TV show.

It is the same with HoD - if they were ever reaching the end of the Dance and doing the Regency material they have to know the full story of the reign of Aegon III.

But, honestly, I hate the idea of getting Dunk & Egg in a TV show before reading those stories. I really like those stories because pretty much everything could happen there while we have basically no idea what would happen aside from a very broad outline. TWoIaF already ruined that to a point, but a TV show would completely ruin it, much more so than a detailed history book could do it. But if we don't get the novellas before that show, we better get at least a proper history of the reigns of Aerys I and Maekar - and especially about Aegon V himself.

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3 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Getting back on topic, I wouldn't be opposed to them ..."rounding out" Dunk & Egg things that happened "off screen", which Martin never intended to give a novella treatment.  Case in point, that between the first and second novella, they sort of ride out the plague because they were in Dorne at the time, serving the mad Lady Vaith, and then visited young Master Aemon in Oldtown.  

I mean "a plague on the scale of the Black Death" is something they could devote another TV movie to, so they'd have four instead of three ready to go

Yes, the Dornish and Oldtown adventure could fit pretty well in the TV show. So I guess there would be enough material for the three novellas plus Dorne and Oldtown for a season of 10-12 episodes.

What could also work pretty well if we got a little bit more on Ser Arlan of Pennytree and Dunk - say, one adventure with them before, perhaps the Vulture King thing they did in service to Lord Dondarrion - before moving on to Ashford. That way the bond between Arlan and Dunk could be established and we would not start with the old man's death.

Arlan is very much a presence in Dunk's thoughts so it might be better for the audience if they, too, could bond with that man before he bites the dust. And it could also help to build up the Blackfyre Rebellion thing considering Dunk basically replaced Arlan's nephew - something they could talk about.

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30 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I think they would do Arlan and the Vulture King as flashbacks, given that the "cold open" on Dunk burying him is so iconic. Burying him right after Arlan knighted him.

That certainly could work, too. But it is more the kind of opening for a short story, not for a TV show with longer arcs and stuff.

One could have that opening, anyway, after a two episodes Vulture King arc. The idea definitely is to start an episode with that opening. You could have Arlan having a mild cough at the end of the last episode, and then basically start the next episode with his corpse.

And they would need flashbacks for the Blackfyre Rebellion and Bloodraven, anyway, or else the story setting wouldn't really work.

Although I must say the best way to do the Redgrass Field and stuff would still be via flashback scenes done with Ser Eustace's voice over. That is both exposition character/plot development.

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Hopper was already in Game of Thrones as the second Dickon Tarly. It would be a bit weird to cast him again.

Worth noting that so we've had the same actor (Dean-Charles Chapman) playing two different roles (Martyn Lannister and Tommen Baratheon) in the same show, whilst another character (the Mountain) was played by three different actors.

Getting someone who played a minor role in just 4 episodes of the original show to play a completely different character probably would not be a major problem for them. 

Quote

It cannot happen that we get the ending of another of his works in a (potentially shitty as hell) TV show.

Beyond anything else, if George feels that completing the D&E novella series is either non-viable for personal creative reasons or, if it is possible it won't be for many more years, then the choice might be getting the remainder (or at least the ending) of the D&E stories either via a TV show or not within a reasonable timeframe, if at all.

That's why it'll be interesting to hear from George on the subject, to see why he's changed his mind and what has engendered that change of attitude.

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36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Worth noting that so we've had the same actor (Dean-Charles Chapman) playing two different roles (Martyn Lannister and Tommen Baratheon) in the same show, whilst another character (the Mountain) was played by three different actors.

Getting someone who played a minor role in just 4 episodes of the original show to play a completely different character probably would not be a major problem for them. 

 

2. Hopper was the second actor cast for Dickon.

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37 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Worth noting that so we've had the same actor (Dean-Charles Chapman) playing two different roles (Martyn Lannister and Tommen Baratheon) in the same show, whilst another character (the Mountain) was played by three different actors.

Getting someone who played a minor role in just 4 episodes of the original show to play a completely different character probably would not be a major problem for them. 

We also had two actors for Daario, so this shouldn't really be a problem at all.

37 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Beyond anything else, if George feels that completing the D&E novella series is either non-viable for personal creative reasons or, if it is possible it won't be for many more years, then the choice might be getting the remainder (or at least the ending) of the D&E stories either via a TV show or not within a reasonable timeframe, if at all.

That's why it'll be interesting to hear from George on the subject, to see why he's changed his mind and what has engendered that change of attitude.

Of course, he should say something about that soon, even more so on the Robert's Rebellion thing.

But still - we know how things are with 'outlines' in GoT. I'm not holding my breath for George having a complete and detailed pictures about the intricacies of later Dunk & Egg novellas, especially not his idea that he could finish them in just another seven or twelve or whatever novellas seems to be very unrealistic in light of the fact that he basically made no progress insofar as the biography of Dunk & Egg is concerned in the three novellas he published so far.

And neither 'The Village Hero' nor the Winterfell story are going to jump ahead in time all that much.

Basically this seems to be a bigger project that ASoIaF if he does justice to the subject matter, and we won't get a completely imbalanced set of novellas, say, six about young Dunk & Egg, one about them in their twenties (Third Blackfyre Rebellion), one in their thirties, when Egg takes the throne, one about Duncan's marriage, and then one about Summerhall.

That would just suck.

In that sense, the way to get a proper outline for those TV show writers would be to at least finish FaB. That way they would get a setting, characters, details, etc.

He would still have to give them notes and details on individual Dunk & Egg novella ideas he has planned, especially for those who wouldn't make it into a history book (like TSS), but it would be a start to turn this general outline into another FaB book.

Then the audience would have the chance to read that at least before watching the show.

But I guess this would be the plan, anyway. He did that with HoD already, and in a sense even with parts of TWoW in relation to GoT (the Mercy chapter). So I guess we can hope we are getting FaB 2 (and hopefully 3) before we are going to get a Dunk & Egg show (moving beyond TMK territory).

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My attempt to map out the Dunk & Egg stories, as Martin has said that 3 are finished out of a planned 12:

  • 1 - The Hedge Knight - Ashford Tourney

Between the first and second novellas, Dunk & Egg travel to Dorne, take up service with the mad Lady Vaith, sail down the Greenblood with the Orphans, take a ship at Planky Town, fight off some sea raiders, then arrive at Oldtown to meet Egg's brother Maester Aemon. Meanwhile, plague devastates all of Westros but Dorne and the Vale (which closed their mountainous borders in time), thus Dunk & Egg were spared. All of this happens off-screen but is ripe for inclusion. 

  • 2 - The Sworn Sword - aftermath of the plague, now a severe drought. Conflict at Standfast. Lady Rohanne. Mostly "setup" as this is the first time the Blackfyre Rebellion is explained.
  • 3 - The Mystery Knight - the "Second Blackfyre Rebellion"

As yet unpublished:

  • 4 - The She-Wolves of Winterfell - Dunk & Egg travel to Winterfell to take up service to fight off ironborn raids, but there are 5 different Stark widows at the castle due to lords dying in rapid succession, each jockeying for power. 
  • 5 - The Village Hero - Dunk & Egg wander into the Blackwood-Bracken feud. Probably setting up Egg's future wife and queen, Betha Blackwood.

Martin has - oddly - said that after Winds of Winter is done, he'll release EITHER She-Wolves or the Village Hero, but not both (he hasn't decided yet).  They're both mostly complete. I put She-wolves first just because I still hope we get it (not just for Winterfell, but because it's where they were initially heading in Mystery Knight).  

Other titles for future instalments include:

  • -The Sellsword
  • -The Champion
  • -The Kingsguard
  • -The Lord Commander

So there are SEVEN later Dunk & Egg stories that Martin won't get to "until after the main ASOIAF series is finished".  From The World of Ice & Fire sourcebook, we can glean some of the major events in their later lives:

  • Third Backfyre Rebellion
  • Peake Uprising - Egg's father King Maekar dies, Egg succeeds him after a Great Council
  • Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion
  • Broken Marriage Alliances: Jenny of Oldstones, revolt by Lyonel Baratheon, duel of LC Duncan vs the Laughing Storm
  • "The Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig"
  • The Tragedy of Summerhall (death of D&E, birth of Rhaegar)

That's only SIX major events, however. 

They'd probably fit in mention of background stuff like Tytos Lannister gradually losing control of the Westerlands and King Egg having to send royal armies in three times to restore order - though the actual Reyne Rebellion happens after the War of the Ninepenny Kings (Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion) and thus after Dunk and Egg die. 

Who the heck are "The Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig"?  More curiously, how could these bandits have been active for 30 years? If they both caused Aelora's suicide, and also led a revolt that Egg's son Daeron died crushing?

As for the marriage alliance scheme, the plan was Prince Duncan to Lyonel Baratheon's daughter, Jaehaerys II to Celia Tully, Princess Shaera to Luthor Tyrell, and Daeron to Olenna Redwyne. Duncan abdicated to marry a commoner (the mysterious Jenny of Oldstones); brief Baratheon uprising settled when Egg's youngest daughter Rhaelle married Lyonel's son Ormund; Jaehaerys II eloped with his own sister Shaera; and by that point, Daeron didn't want to marry Olenna and given that his older two brothers got out of arranged marriages they let him too, and Olenna married Luthor Tyrell.

 

....I'm still not sure.  I can only think of six out of seven major events.  Maybe if Jenny of Oldstones and Jaehaerys/Shaera are two separate stories.

Edited by The Dragon Demands
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The stories George has given titles for do not all transfer to major events. In fact, I doubt that many are about those.

One is going to be about Dunk & Egg with the free companies in Essos, as per the afterword of the collection, one should be about Dunk joining the Kingsguard, one about his trial-by-combat with Lyonel Baratheon, one about the disappearance/death/whatever of Rohanne Webber Osgrey Lannister, and one about Summerhall.

You have to keep in mind that Dunk is the only POV of those novellas, meaning whatever happens to the Targaryens will only matter for the story if they interact and are with Dunk at whatever time important stuff happens. And while Dunk plays a crucial role during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion ... that doesn't seem a thing worthy of a novella. It was a brief and straightforward thing, over as soon as it began, and unlike with the Whitewalls affair we already know the broad strokes of that. This could be referenced in novellas, but it doesn't strike me as a likely topic for an entire novella ... if George doesn't want to do all that many of them.

But, of course, the potential for stories is pretty much endless there. And George really fails to jump ahead in time, meaning this trend is going to continue, as it already does with the Winterfell and Pennytree stories.

And it makes no sense to assume that Dunk as a sellsword or Dunk as a Targaryen household knight, Dunk as a landed knight/petty lord, Dunk as a Kingsguard, Dunk as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Dunk as Aegon V's closest advisor (and perhaps even his Hand) is going to be worth just one novella.

If George were a faster writer he could have gone through the entire biography - one hedge knight story, one sellsword story, one household knight story, one Kingsguard story, etc. ... to then later fill in the blanks, so to speak. Give some more stories about Dunk & Egg's travels, more stories about Dunk at Maekar's court, say, stories with Dunk hanging out with Egg's children, stories on Blackfyre Rebellions and uprisings during Egg's reign, etc.

But he hasn't done that so far and I very much doubt he'll ever do it. Although I've to say I'd definitely like a novella covering the episodes in Dorne and Oldtown.

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I've thought about the problems with Blackfyre and D&E adaptations before. It seems to me that the best solution to avoid a colossal mess is to do massive rewrites in order to separate the two definitively. And the process should start with the Blackfyre adaptation. Let me explain.

First of all, we should go with the Dexter route for the Blackfyre adaptation. First Blackfyre Rebellion will be adapted rather faithfully and after that the show will write its own story. This way, they can avoid a generational saga (which doomed the Vikings after Ragnar’s death) and fit the whole thing into the lifetime of a single main lead that is Daemon Blackfyre. The later Blackfyre Rebellions will be heavily edited and merged. Each season might be a single Blackfyre Rebellion. The first season might feature the prelude to the First Blackfyre Rebellion and end just as Daemon Blackfyre rises in rebellion.

As I mentioned before, Daemon Blackfyre should not die at the First Blackfyre Rebellion but instead survive till the end of the show, leading the rest of the Blackfyre Rebellions as well. The audience would not be interested at all in his lame-ass sons and other descendants that led the later Blackfyre Rebellions. Bittersteel should be reduced to a side role and Daemon Blackfyre vs. Bloodraven dynamic should be promoted as something similar to Thor vs. Loki. This can carry the show until the end.

To make the story better, Daeron II needs to be changed. I think a king like King Baldwin from the Kingdom of Heaven would do well. This seemingly weak and sickly but actually smart and capable king will be opposed by a Thor-like figure that is Daemon who looks like every inch a king should be. Daeron II in the show will be basically Aerys I combined with Daeron II and Jaehaerys II. Team Blackfyre will claim that Bloodraven is a sorcerer and the weak king who is not fit to rule is his puppet. It might even be that Daeron II is slowly but secretly dying from greyscale. Team Blackfyre will also be opposing the Dornish marriage of this king as well as the peace with Dorne.

Depending on what GRRM plans with them in the future, more roles should be given to some side characters like Shiera, Danelle Lothston, Elaena Targaryen etc. For example, the first Daenerys can be merged with Shiera and she could be the love interest between Bloodraven and Daemon Blackfyre. Elaena Targaryen might be made the mother of Daemon Blackfyre. Elaena might stay loyal to the king whereas Shiera might join Daemon for love. By giving more depth and connections to a select few of cast, the show can avoid some of the problems in the books. I mean, GRRM wrote all this historical stuff basically as wiki entries. There is over-abundance of characters. If GRRM wrote the First Blackfyre Rebellion as a proper narrative like a novella or a novel, then he would have to pay attention to character economy, which means he would be the one to make a similar consolidation of characters and events.

All in all, the Blackfyre adaptation will cover a decade for 6 seasons at most. Daemon Blackfyre will survive and lead all the rebellions until the end where he dies. All this story will be concluded before D&E properly starts. Since the Blackfyre backstory will concluded by the time of Dunk and Egg, there will be major revisions to them as well.

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