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Moiraine Sedai

Tyrion & Sansa vs Roose & Walda

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If given a choice, which couple would the people of the north choose to be the ruling couple of Winterfell and the North?

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35 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The Stark one.

Yes. Though having Tyrion in the mix would complicate things for Sansa, as the Lannisters are hated as much as the Boltons and Freys.

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1 minute ago, Nathan Stark said:

Yes. Though having Tyrion in the mix would complicate things for Sansa, as the Lannisters are hated as much as the Boltons and Freys.

Ι agree. But you know how treacherous those stairs in Winterfell can be or how many times masters fail to cure even the simplest of ailments. ;)

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In my opinion people of the North would have chosen Roose and Walda. Because of Roose. Because he is a northerner, he is one of them, he's an adult, he has his own supporters and bannermen in the North, he is from an ancient Northern House, Winterfell is under his control; if people of the North will submit to his authority, then he won't fight with them, won't opress them and their families; also the Crown has proclaimed him the Warden of the North, so going against him would be equal to treason against the Crown. Even though Sansa is one of the Starks, she is just a girl. Her husband is not a northerner, and in addition to that he is just a half-man, while Roose, even though he is not a youngster anymore, he is still a warrior, he has both fighting experience and an experience of commanding an army, while Tyrion is Tyrion, dwarf, alcoholic, not respected by people, etc. Also those northerners, that personally know Sansa, won't support her, won't fight for her. Because she is a spoiled, dumb, airheaded, whiny little girl that looks down on people, and measure their worth based on their clothes and status (whether this or that guy is a noble and famous knight or not, and if he is not, then he is not worthy of her attention).

People won't chose Sansa just because she is a Stark. That's not enough. If that would have been enough, then people of the North would have long ago attacked King's Landing and freed Sansa from Lannisters. But they haven't done it, because majority care about their own wellbeing and about their families, and chosing Sansa over Roose would have endangered them. Roose is one of the bad guys, and Sansa is one of the good guys. Though for northerners to chose one of them is not as easy as chosing between black or white / evil or good. Life is more complicated than that.

Though, if the geopolitical situation in the North would have changed in the favour of Starks, for example if Jon with an army of Wildlings and with King Stannis' support seized back Winterfell, and freed northerners from Roose's oppression, then they would have gladly proclaimed their fealty to Starks, and if that would have meant accepting Sansa as the ruling Lady of the North, then they would have done it. Despite who her husband is.

Edited by Megorova

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7 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Because she is a spoiled, dumb, airheaded, whiny little girl that looks down on people, and measure their worth based on their clothes and status (whether this or that guy is a noble and famous knight or not, and if he is not, then he is not worthy of her attention).

Prove it. If you are talking about some of the AGOT chapters I would like to remind you that she was between 12 and 13 years old. As for the rest of your post is so inaccurate that is astonishing.

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The north would have no objections to Sansa but Tyrion will be a problem.  He is a Lannister and a halfman.  Everybody knows who ordered the red wedding.  Tyrion's dad.  He is the enemy in their eyes.  Likewise, Walda will be seen as Lady Frey.  Those who lost family in the red wedding would have reservations.  But Roose is perfectly acceptable.  His is the second most powerful house in the north.  His house was the last to bend their knees to the Starks.  His lineage is almost as good.  Roose and Walda wins by a small margin.  

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25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

In my opinion people of the North would have chosen Roose and Walda. Because of Roose. Because he is a northerner, he is one of them, he's an adult, he has his own supporters and bannermen in the North, he is from an ancient Northern House, Winterfell is under his control; if people of the North will submit to his authority, then he won't fight with them, won't opress them and their families; also the Crown has proclaimed him the Warden of the North, so going against him would be equal to treason against the Crown. Even though Sansa is one of the Starks, she is just a girl. Her husband is not a northerner, and in addition to that he is just a half-man, while Roose, even though he is not a youngster anymore, he is still a warrior, he has both fighting experience and an experience of commanding an army, while Tyrion is Tyrion, dwarf, alcoholic, not respected by people, etc. Also those northerners, that personally know Sansa, won't support her, won't fight for her. Because she is a spoiled, dumb, airheaded, whiny little girl that looks down on people, and measure their worth based on their clothes and status (whether this or that guy is a noble and famous knight or not, and if he is not, then he is not worthy of her attention).

People won't chose Sansa just because she is a Stark. That's not enough. If that would have been enough, then people of the North would have long ago attacked King's Landing and freed Sansa from Lannisters. But they haven't done it, because majority care about their own wellbeing and about their families, and chosing Sansa over Roose would have endangered them. Roose is one of the bad guys, and Sansa is one of the good guys. Though for northerners to chose one of them is not as easy as chosing between black or white / evil or good. Life is more complicated than that.

Though, if the geopolitical situation in the North would have changed in the favour of Starks, for example if Jon with an army of Wildlings and with King Stannis' support seized back Winterfell, and freed northerners from Roose's oppression, then they would have gladly proclaimed their fealty to Starks, and if that would have meant accepting Sansa as the ruling Lady of the North, then they would have done it. Despite who her husband is.

Gotta disagree with you on this one. The Boltons being a northern house has not stopped the Manderlys, Umbers, Glovers or Mountain Clans from outright rebelling against them or plotting to get rid of them. The other Houses are motivated primarily by the fact that they still have family members held hostage to keep them in line. The Rhyswells and Dustins are the only houses that seem genuinely invested in the Bolton cause, and even they despise Ramsay Snow.

Meanwhile, you have the Mountain Clans making cause with Stannis in order to free "Ned's little girl." That kind of disproves your hypothesis that the North wouldn't move to free the Stark daughters if they could.

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Because she is a spoiled, dumb, airheaded, whiny little girl that looks down on people, and measure their worth based on their clothes and status (whether this or that guy is a noble and famous knight or not, and if he is not, then he is not worthy of her attention).

This is such a wretched argument. It doesn't allow for any character growth, doesn't account for how Sansa has been raised, ignores her own moments of empathy and kindness, overlooks the scenes where she displays intelligence. I have to wonder if the people making these kinds or arguments actually read the Sansa chapters, or just skimmed through them. It is a sign of how little many people think of adolescent girls that they get called "dumb" and "airheaded" for being into feminine things and being immature in many ways. This is a silly argument that needs to die.

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1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The Stark one.

Yes.

It's an easy choice.

Accidents, after all, do happen and people of all ages die every day. And this is the North: there are plenty of hale and hearty men who would not only be an excellent husband to Lady Stark but they would gladly fill her halls with the laughter and songs of healthy children.

And given Lady Stark's age and condition, she will be more malleable. It will be easy and politically/economically advantageous for her husband, her in-laws or both to invest in her and her rule.

Whereas Lord Bolton is an adult man with an adult wife and an adult bastard son. There is less of a political or economic advantage to be had with him as the ruler of the North than Sansa.

38 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That's not enough. If that would have been enough, then people of the North would have long ago attacked King's Landing and freed Sansa from Lannisters.

Ummm...they tried.

Edited by BlackLightning

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Tyrion and Sansa would probably prove preferable to the North if they were somehow given the choice. That... preference... between bad choices doesn't mean I think Tyrion would be long for life if he tried ruling the North, marriage to Sansa or not.

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3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Gotta disagree with you on this one. The Boltons being a northern house has not stopped the Manderlys, Umbers, Glovers or Mountain Clans from outright rebelling against them or plotting to get rid of them. The other Houses are motivated primarily by the fact that they still have family members held hostage to keep them in line. The Rhyswells and Dustins are the only houses that seem genuinely invested in the Bolton cause, and even they despise Ramsay Snow.

Meanwhile, you have the Mountain Clans making cause with Stannis in order to free "Ned's little girl." That kind of disproves your hypothesis that the North wouldn't move to free the Stark daughters if they could.

 

I agree with that. Shall we see what the text says?

House Wull

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I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.

House Manderly

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My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home.

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Yes. They killed Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn and King Robb. He was our king! He was brave and good and the Freys murdered him. If Lord Stannis will avenge him, we should join Lord Stannis.

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I know about the promise ... Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!

Lady Dustin or houses Umber and  Hornwood.

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Old Whoresbane is only here because the Freys hold the Greatjon captive. And do you imagine the Hornwood men have forgotten the Bastard's last marriage, and how his lady wife was left to starve, chewing her own fingers? What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl. Lady Arya's sobs do us more harm than all of Lord Stannis's swords and spears."

 House Mormont

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Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK.

House Liddle

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This march was madness. More dying every day, and for what? Some girl?

Ned's girl.

 

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When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There's squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers.

Even Tywin

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When you bring Eddard Stark's grandsonhome to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors.

The only right Ramsey has on Winterfell comes from the fact that he is married to Arya and she has the better claim. And even if he claimed Winterfell as his own will the Umbers forget about what happened to Smalljon, the Mormonts about Dacey, maybe the Lockes will forget about Donnel, or Norreys about Owen? Will Lyessa ever forget about Robin’s death?

We have so many text references and yet people keep saying that the North don’t care about the Starks.

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Tyrion & Sansa is no longer a couple, so the question is kind of moot.   If they ever do get back together, it is worth noting that Tyrion killed Tywin, and is widely believed to have killed Joffrey, both of whom were widely hated in the North.  Unlike the rest of Westeros, these murders might well be considered an asset in the North.  If he played his cards right, he could achieve a grudging assent to his rule.  He would likely be considered an improvement over Roose Bolton, in any event, especially with Sansa at his side.

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2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Tyrion & Sansa is no longer a couple, so the question is kind of moot.   If they ever do get back together, it is worth noting that Tyrion killed Tywin, and is widely believed to have killed Joffrey, both of whom were widely hated in the North.  Unlike the rest of Westeros, these murders might well be considered an asset in the North.  If he played his cards right, he could achieve a grudging assent to his rule.  He would likely be considered an improvement over Roose Bolton, in any event, especially with Sansa at his side.

No that would never work.

The Northmen wouldn't really care about a kingslayer but a kinslayer is a kinslayer. Right down there with people who malevolently violate guest right.

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Sansa didn't marry Tyrion by her own choice. It may well be that the northmen would normally not care about this, but when that person is Tyrion, whom they don't like, I'm pretty sure they would discover basic morality quite quickly.

Roose is a violent thug whom nobody would rationally want to be the subject of.

I.e. their preferred choice would be Tyrion and Sansa and then have that marriage annulled.

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Ned's daughter.

- House Stark had over the years been dilligent about marrying their children to the houses of the North. Especially the ones they had defeated in rebellions. Even Theon thought one of his uncles or himself would probably be married off to a Stark girl, or at least a cousin. This created a fierce loyalty in their vassals. save apparently the Boltons who spectacularly betrayed the Starks.

- Winterfell is the capital of the North, and...

- ..."A Stark must always be in Winterfell." Is a mantra in the North, which added to the mystique surrounding House Stark. Leading to speculations on magical blood, book legends about the crypts, etc.

- Every time Winterfell is invaded (either by Theon Greyjoy or the Boltons), a series of strage "accidents" keep happening, again suggesting that Winterfell is "fighting back" from the invaders.

- Back to Ned's daughter. By all accounts, Rickard, Brandon, and Eddard (aka Our Ned) were well-loved up there. While the Boltons were the "last addition" of the Northern Fiefdoms who were known to have strange customs.

- Even Roose Bolton saw the need to have a Stark legitimizing his hold, which resulted in (f)Arya.

 

And now, this is where I go a bit emotional and troll-ish. Apologies in advance. Tyrion is not a liability, he's got the gift of the gab and he's VERY GOOD at sewer management.

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Fat Wyman Manderly, Whoresbane Umber, the men of House Hornwood and House Tallhart, the Lockes and Flints and Ryswells, all of them were northmen, sworn to House Stark for generations beyond count. It was the girl who held them here, Lord Eddard's blood, but the girl was just a mummer's ploy, a lamb in a direwolf's skin.

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"Not me," the Lady of Barrowton confessed, "but the rest, yes. Old Whoresbane is only here because the Freys hold the Greatjon captive. And do you imagine the Hornwood men have forgotten the Bastard's last marriage, and how his lady wife was left to starve, chewing her own fingers? What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl."

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"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."

The people who are attacking Winterfell are fine with breaking up a forced marriage by force. It's heroic to them. If it was Sansa in there, married to Tyrion, they'd probably do the same thing if Sansa was crying and Tyrion had his black reputation for killing women.

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1 hour ago, FluffyWillow said:

- House Stark had over the years been dilligent about marrying their children to the houses of the North. Especially the ones they had defeated in rebellions. Even Theon thought one of his uncles or himself would probably be married off to a Stark girl, or at least a cousin. This created a fierce loyalty in their vassals. save apparently the Boltons who spectacularly betrayed the Starks.

I noticed that as far as we know the Starks have been married with members of Houses Mormont, Locke, Glover, Norrey, Manderly, Umber, Ryswell, Cerwyn, Karstark and Flint along with some other Southern houses Blackwood, Royce, Tully, Rogers and Arryn. However we have no information for a wedding between a Stark and a Bolton.

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2 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I noticed that as far as we know the Starks have been married with members of Houses Mormont, Locke, Glover, Norrey, Manderly, Umber, Ryswell, Cerwyn, Karstark and Flint along with some other Southern houses Blackwood, Royce, Tully, Rogers and Arryn. However we have no information for a wedding between a Stark and a Bolton.

Good point. I don't currently have the books with me, though a quick detective work on the internet seemed to prove you right. My mistake.

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25 minutes ago, FluffyWillow said:

Good point. I don't currently have the books with me, though a quick detective work on the internet seemed to prove you right. My mistake.

As a matter of fact I find it very intriguing that the Starks hadn’t married with the Boltons. They seem to getting married into powerful families and yet none of them got married with one of their most important bannermen.

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

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9 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

As a matter of fact I find it very intriguing that the Starks hadn’t married with the Boltons. They seem to getting married into powerful families and yet none of them got married with one of their most important bannermen.

I think it's because both houses know where they stand with each other. Don't forget the Boltons used to skin Starks. In the Dying Of The Light (another GRRM novel) people do this because they think their enemies are sub-human.

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