Aegon and the Royal Progress

[Canon Claude]

In case my title isn’t clear enough, my question is focused on the final part of FaB, at the end of the Regency period. Torrhen Manderly spends a lot of time and effort planning a year-long progress for Aegon III to take when he comes of age. Aegon himself ends it as soon as he turns sixteen, costing him the respect of Torrhen Manderly, who leaves in disgust. 
 

It would take a lot of time to go over all the factors leading up to these events, as well as the motivations of Torrhen, Aegon, and the others. You probably know all that anyway, so I won’t bother with that stuff. My question is, do you think Aegon III made the right choice?

[Lord Varys]

Depends on the aftermath and we don't know that yet.

But probably it did cost Aegon III a lot of sympathy ... or rather sympathy he could have won by showing off Daenera, his brother Viserys, and his half-sisters. He himself wouldn't have made (m)any friends considering his personality, but if his family had this could have helped later.

But if the following years were all peace and quiet then this would have been the right choice. Also should we learn that there were attempts on his life arranged by certain lords in the near future ... then leaving court could have resulted in such an attempt being successful.

The stupid thing there was to plan a progress without first asking the king's whether he wanted to make a progress. After all, it would take place after he had come of age.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Hm, good question. Did the moody teenager make the right choice by being a pissy little brat? It was a terrible decision on every level.

First, it's deeply offensive to one of his most loyal followers. Torrhen Manderly had plenty of good reasons for Aegon to leave the Red Keep and actually interact with his subjects. It's not like he hasn't done it before, he was looking after plague victims when he was a kid, and he was actually invested in the council for a bit too. Sure, Unwin Peake was a dick, and that soured Aegon, but Torrhen wasn't a dick. He was trying his best to make things work, and he did an objectively good job. He didn't deserve being treated with such blatant disrespect as Aegon showed him.

Secondly, it's offensive to every lord in the Seven Kingdoms. How many preparations did everyone make before being abruptly told one day that the progress wasn't happening? It wasn't like Aegon told Manderly that he wasn't going to do it when the Hand brought it up at a council one day. Aegon sat on his surly ass and let everyone waste who knows how much time and money and whatnot. All of it to waste, and it's Aegon's fault.

Thirdly, it's not healthy for him. I can be lenient and say that Aegon hasn't had a great childhood, but sitting around and moping isn't solving anything. Manderly had a great point when he thought that getting Aegon out of that castle might do him some good. It's not the same as therapy, but it's a lot better than nothing at all, which is what he ended up doing all his life. The Broken King isn't remembered fondly for a reason, if he's ever remembered at all. Hell, Viserys did more ruling than Aegon ever did. Clear to me that he wasn't making good choices for himself, so maybe he should have trusted an adult who's not only a war veteran who might understand a bit about trauma, but who also served his mom a lot more loyally than Tyland Lannister or Unwin Peake or Corlys Velaryon did. 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

First, it's deeply offensive to one of his most loyal followers. Torrhen Manderly had plenty of good reasons for Aegon to leave the Red Keep and actually interact with his subjects. It's not like he hasn't done it before, he was looking after plague victims when he was a kid, and he was actually invested in the council for a bit too. Sure, Unwin Peake was a dick, and that soured Aegon, but Torrhen wasn't a dick. He was trying his best to make things work, and he did an objectively good job. He didn't deserve being treated with such blatant disrespect as Aegon showed him.

Manderly wasn't one of his most loyal followers - if he was, he would have asked the king whether he wanted to do a progress or not.

8 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Secondly, it's offensive to every lord in the Seven Kingdoms. How many preparations did everyone make before being abruptly told one day that the progress wasn't happening? It wasn't like Aegon told Manderly that he wasn't going to do it when the Hand brought it up at a council one day. Aegon sat on his surly ass and let everyone waste who knows how much time and money and whatnot. All of it to waste, and it's Aegon's fault.

The lords were most likely actually glad that the king stayed at home because, in the end, they would have to pay for hosting the king and his entourage with their own coin. That's how those kind of things were done. After a dreadful war and a long winter pretty much everyone had better things to do than to waste money on that.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Manderly wasn't one of his most loyal followers - if he was, he would have asked the king whether he wanted to do a progress or not.

Who said he didn't? For all we know, Aegon just kept his mouth shut and said nothing about his plan to pull the rug out from everyone. You can't prove it either way.

And yes, Manderly WAS one of his most loyal followers. He was one of the last men with Rhaenyra before her demise. Hell, he even urged her to come to White Harbour with him. If she'd agreed, she'd never have died. Funny how Aegon forgot that when he was talking about whose chair was whose at the table. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The lords were most likely actually glad that the king stayed at home because, in the end, they would have to pay for hosting the king and his entourage with their own coin. That's how those kind of things were done. After a dreadful war and a long winter pretty much everyone had better things to do than to waste money on that.

Don't ignore the text for the sake of an argument. "Gyldayn" clearly establishes that the lords were falling over themselves to host the king. The expense didn't matter as much as the prestige. People care about that in the Seven Kingdoms, as well as reputation, or else why would Manderly take it so personally when all his months' work was cancelled abruptly?

[James Steller]

11 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

do you think Aegon III made the right choice?

Yes. Absolutely. 

It's the perfect payoff to Aegon III's story, or at least the story which is covered in FaB. Aegon is emotionally broken by the end of the Dance, and even after he's been crowned king, he is surrounded by schemers and sycophants. The only one who's honest enough to tell him this is Lord Cregan Stark, the only one who actually wants to prosecute the murderers of Aegon II. Unfortunately, Cregan doesn't stick around, but his lesson proves true in Aegon's eyes. He spends the whole regency either being manipulated, ignored, or dodging conspiracies and assassination attempts. That's not the kind of youth which will make anyone a trusting individual, and the mistrust is entirely justified. And yes, while I do wish that it wasn't Torrhen Manderly who gets the brunt of it, the moment where Aegon finally takes control of his life is one of my favourite moments in GRRM's universe. Aegon refuses to play the game or dance the mummer's dance, because why should he? He's absolutely right to distrust and despise the nobility, especially Unwin Peake (who would no doubt have gladly taken the chance to murder Aegon when he dropped by during the progress). And on top of that, Aegon also orders the prepared feast for his nameday to be given to the poor instead. This is a king with better priorities than almost any other king that's sat on the Iron Throne. 

[Lord Varys]

46 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Who said he didn't? For all we know, Aegon just kept his mouth shut and said nothing about his plan to pull the rug out from everyone. You can't prove it either way.

Of course he didn't say anything, obviously. But it also doesn't seem as if Manderly asked his king whether he wanted to go on a progress or not - and that's something you should do if you serve the king.

46 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

And yes, Manderly WAS one of his most loyal followers. He was one of the last men with Rhaenyra before her demise. Hell, he even urged her to come to White Harbour with him. If she'd agreed, she'd never have died. Funny how Aegon forgot that when he was talking about whose chair was whose at the table. 

As Aegon III pointed out, he was loyal to Aegon's mother, not to Aegon himself. That is an important difference. In fact, when his father and brother died Manderly gave up his seat on the regency council and abandoned his king to the likes of Unwin Peake.

And while Manderly was loyal to Rhaenyra, he offered her stupid advice like arresting/executing the bastard dragonriders. Good job.

46 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Don't ignore the text for the sake of an argument. "Gyldayn" clearly establishes that the lords were falling over themselves to host the king. The expense didn't matter as much as the prestige. People care about that in the Seven Kingdoms, as well as reputation, or else why would Manderly take it so personally when all his months' work was cancelled abruptly?

No, that's nowhere in the text. Manderly and the regents made plans where to go, but there is no indication that the lords they intended to visit were keen on hosting the king - or disappointed when the progress was cancelled. It is clearly established that a lord the king visits has to pay for the entire affair - which is drawn directly from the real world, by the way - and that Jaehaerys I actually took smaller retinues on his progresses so that it would be less expensive for his lords than the Conqueror's great progresses were. And you very well know that the Starks had also to pay for Robert's visit in AGoT, etc.

The reason why Manderlys seems to have been pissed is that he himself had invested so much in this progress. He wanted to continue as Hand and he wanted to show off the king. This was to be more his progress than Aegon's - which he could have known if he had bothered to talk to his king and win his trust. Instead he apparently believed that nothing would change when the king came of age.

42 minutes ago, James Steller said:

And on top of that, Aegon also orders the prepared feast for his nameday to be given to the poor instead. This is a king with better priorities than almost any other king that's sat on the Iron Throne. 

That is the crucial point. This thing would have been a waste of the Crown's money but also a waste of the money of the lords who could not have possibly refused hosting the king if he had announced he would visit them. You cannot decline something like that.

Aegon III could, perhaps, been more popular with the common people if he had done that progress, but it could actually have made him even less popular with his lords.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

On 1/28/2021 at 2:00 PM, Lord Varys said:

Of course he didn't say anything, obviously. But it also doesn't seem as if Manderly asked his king whether he wanted to go on a progress or not - and that's something you should do if you serve the king.

Again, we have no idea whether that's true or not. And besides, Manderly was on friendly terms with both Viserys and Daenaera. You think he never mentioned the progress to them either? Was everyone sworn to secrecy? Were none of the Targaryens made aware? One way or another, Aegon had to have known, but he clearly didn't say anything about his disinterest.

On 1/28/2021 at 2:00 PM, Lord Varys said:

As Aegon III pointed out, he was loyal to Aegon's mother, not to Aegon himself. That is an important difference. In fact, when his father and brother died Manderly gave up his seat on the regency council and abandoned his king to the likes of Unwin Peake.

So... going home to look after your family is now 'abandoning the king'? First off, how could Manderly have predicted Unwin Peake's actions, and secondly, isn't his primary duty to maintain his own territory as Lord Stark's bannerman? There's a hierarchy in place, and when he became Lord of White Harbour, Manderly had a duty to attend. It's no different than when Jeyne Arryn and Royce Caron left to make sure their lands were safe.

On 1/28/2021 at 2:00 PM, Lord Varys said:

And while Manderly was loyal to Rhaenyra, he offered her stupid advice like arresting/executing the bastard dragonriders. Good job.

I'll grant you that. He was wrong there. But he wasn't wrong when he was urging Rhaenyra to come north.

On 1/28/2021 at 2:00 PM, Lord Varys said:

The reason why Manderlys seems to have been pissed is that he himself had invested so much in this progress. He wanted to continue as Hand and he wanted to show off the king. This was to be more his progress than Aegon's - which he could have known if he had bothered to talk to his king and win his trust. Instead he apparently believed that nothing would change when the king came of age.

I didn't get the impression that Manderly was in it for himself. It wasn't like he was desperate to take power, he didn't beg for the job, they only picked him because he didn't come with any baggage. And he only took the job if he could pick other competent men to help him fix the realm, and he very much did that. Aside from his bigotry, he was an overall competent Hand. And the progress was clearly an attempt to reconcile Aegon with the realm, and also help Aegon get over his depression. All his quotes are focused towards how Aegon will be able to experience new things, see new things, and how the smallfolk will be heartened to see their king. Unwin, by contrast, is talking himself up, telling Aegon that he's going to marry his daughter, insisting that Aegon is being a nuisance. There's a clear difference in those two personalities. Manderly was trying to do a good job and serve his king, and his king spat in his face. I don't blame Manderly for being bitter. 

On 1/28/2021 at 2:00 PM, Lord Varys said:

Aegon III could, perhaps, been more popular with the common people if he had done that progress, but it could actually have made him even less popular with his lords.

His popularity couldn't have been lower. He had to deal with uprisings, pretenders, and his legacy is one of just overall negativity. All the good that happened is attributed to Viserys rather than Aegon, and his kids proved to be failures on all fronts. It speaks volumes that the longest-lived legacy of Aegon III is the fact that his daughter gave birth to the Blackfyres. He was not a good king, and he was never viewed as a good king, neither in life nor in death. He's practically a sulky emo version of Aenys Targaryen.

[Lord Varys]

51 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Again, we have no idea whether that's true or not. And besides, Manderly was on friendly terms with both Viserys and Daenaera. You think he never mentioned the progress to them either? Was everyone sworn to secrecy? Were none of the Targaryens made aware? One way or another, Aegon had to have known, but he clearly didn't say anything about his disinterest.

Of course the king knew about the progress ... but obviously nobody asked him whether he wanted to make a progress or not. And if you do that, and you time things so that you can no longer force the king to go on a progress you should make sure whether he wants to do a progress or not. Which Manderly did not.

The idea that Aegon III may have pretended to be okay with the progress only to fuck with everyone once he came of age is silly. Aegon III didn't have the social skills to pretend. All he could do was to hide his anger and his other feelings by staying silent and ignoring what was going on, but he was unable to feign interest or affection or joy.

51 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

So... going home to look after your family is now 'abandoning the king'? First off, how could Manderly have predicted Unwin Peake's actions, and secondly, isn't his primary duty to maintain his own territory as Lord Stark's bannerman? There's a hierarchy in place, and when he became Lord of White Harbour, Manderly had a duty to attend. It's no different than when Jeyne Arryn and Royce Caron left to make sure their lands were safe.

He abandoned his post as a regent - something that should have come before a mere lordship. Manderly had other relations who could have ruled in his name, just as he was supposed to rule in the name of Aegon III. And if push had come to shove he could have named one of his bannermen or knights to oversee White Harbor for him.

You do recall that Stannis and Renly and Jon Arryn and Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister also did serve on the small council while they were lords in their own right, right?

And Manderly was again leaving White Harbor when the lords asked him to serve as Hand. So, yes, this was him abandoning the king to the likes of Unwin Peake ... or could be seen as such.

And this man was not chosen by the king - as Aegon III himself pointed out - and he is right that a king should choose his own Hand. Obviously Manderly isn't the kind of man Aegon III wants as Hand.

51 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I didn't get the impression that Manderly was in it for himself. It wasn't like he was desperate to take power, he didn't beg for the job, they only picked him because he didn't come with any baggage. And he only took the job if he could pick other competent men to help him fix the realm, and he very much did that. Aside from his bigotry, he was an overall competent Hand. And the progress was clearly an attempt to reconcile Aegon with the realm, and also help Aegon get over his depression. All his quotes are focused towards how Aegon will be able to experience new things, see new things, and how the smallfolk will be heartened to see their king. Unwin, by contrast, is talking himself up, telling Aegon that he's going to marry his daughter, insisting that Aegon is being a nuisance. There's a clear difference in those two personalities. Manderly was trying to do a good job and serve his king, and his king spat in his face. I don't blame Manderly for being bitter. 

Manderly wanted to keep the job after he got it and he was invested in this progress of his. FaB makes that pretty clear:

Quote

Mushroom tells us that the cog that Lord Manderly and his party sailed upon was called the Jolly Salt, but the mood aboard the ship was far from jolly as they beat north toward White Harbor. Torrhen Manderly had never liked “that sullen boy,” as his letters to his daughters make clear, nor would he ever forgive the king for the brusque manner of his dismissal, or the way His Grace “murdered” the royal progress, whose abrupt end his lordship took for a deeply humiliating personal affront.

This quote also shows why Manderly was unsuited as a Hand for Aegon III - because he talked dismissively about his king in his letters and never liked 'that sullen boy'. A king and his Hand should have a good working relationship, based on mutual trust and respect. He should have been less invested in that progress charade and more in the king he was supposed to serve.

And Aegon III obviously was able to have such a relationship with his brother.

51 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

His popularity couldn't have been lower. He had to deal with uprisings, pretenders, and his legacy is one of just overall negativity. All the good that happened is attributed to Viserys rather than Aegon, and his kids proved to be failures on all fronts. It speaks volumes that the longest-lived legacy of Aegon III is the fact that his daughter gave birth to the Blackfyres. He was not a good king, and he was never viewed as a good king, neither in life nor in death. He's practically a sulky emo version of Aenys Targaryen.

That seems to be mostly in your head unless you actually have read a detailed history of the reign of Aegon III. Is that the case?

Aegon III is an average monarch pretty close to the good side, quite a few of the kings we know are worse.

And your standards also way off - his personality is irrelevant, and everything Viserys or Alyn Oakenfist or any other men at his court did in his service are, in the end, his accomplishment, because they are his government. The king's own personality only matters if he and his government were at odds - like with Aerys and Tywin. But if they are on the same page then whatever Viserys as Hand later did was the will of the king.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course the king knew about the progress ... but obviously nobody asked him whether he wanted to make a progress or not. And if you do that, and you time things so that you can no longer force the king to go on a progress you should make sure whether he wants to do a progress or not. Which Manderly did not.

The idea that Aegon III may have pretended to be okay with the progress only to fuck with everyone once he came of age is silly. Aegon III didn't have the social skills to pretend. All he could do was to hide his anger and his other feelings by staying silent and ignoring what was going on, but he was unable to feign interest or affection or joy.

I didn't mean to imply that Aegon feigned willingness to go on the progress, but at any point after he learned about the progress being planned, he could have gone to Manderly and straight up said, "I do not approve of this, and I will not take part, so don't waste your time. Also, just so you know, I intend to name a new Hand when I come of age, just keep things running until then if you please." Sure, it would have been antisocial and rude and obstinate, but if that's the kind of dick Aegon wanted to be, then whatever. But no, that wasn't enough for Aegon. He had to make a big show out of it, bring Sandoq into the room and scare the piss out of his regents, humiliate his Hand in front of everyone in attendance, and dismiss everyone without forewarning. It's the difference between giving two weeks' notice, and telling an employee that they're fired in front of their co-workers with a loaded shotgun in your hands.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Manderly wanted to keep the job after he got it and he was invested in this progress of his. FaB makes that pretty clear:

This quote also shows why Manderly was unsuited as a Hand for Aegon III - because he talked dismissively about his king in his letters and never liked 'that sullen boy'. A king and his Hand should have a good working relationship, based on mutual trust and respect. He should have been less invested in that progress charade and more in the king he was supposed to serve.

You could also use that quote to make the case that Manderly did not want to stick around as Hand, or at least that he saw it as a duty rather than a dream job. Again, I don't think Manderly was motivated by his own personal glory or ambition when he took the job. As Hand, he had to do what was best for the realm, and he had a far better idea of what that was than Aegon ever did. Manderly knew that the king's power is meaningless if nobody likes him, or if say, he's too busy brooding in his room to actually doing anything (which is all the info we've gotten on his reign thus far, until FaBII proves me wrong). The royal progress was twofold, as I say; it encourages Aegon to get out of his own head and actually try living again, and it also gives him the chance to build bonds with his subjects and lords. If he was so keen on doing what was best for the people, and giving them justice, maybe he should have gotten more invested, like Aegon V and Jaehaerys I were clearly invested. Jaehaerys actually travelled, he listened, and he was diplomatic. That sulky boy did none of that.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

That seems to be mostly in your head unless you actually have read a detailed history of the reign of Aegon III. Is that the case?

Aegon III is an average monarch pretty close to the good side, quite a few of the kings we know are worse.

And your standards also way off - his personality is irrelevant, and everything Viserys or Alyn Oakenfist or any other men at his court did in his service are, in the end, his accomplishment, because they are his government. The king's own personality only matters if he and his government were at odds - like with Aerys and Tywin. But if they are on the same page then whatever Viserys as Hand later did was the will of the king.

I'm perfectly happy to change my view of Aegon III if further details alter the image of him, but so far, it appears that he didn't do much of anything if at all. 

"Aegon was regarded as a broken king who ruled over a broken reign. Aegon was melancholic to the end of his days, found pleasure in almost nothing, and locked himself in his room to brood for days on end."

"Viserys was said to be instrumental in keeping the realm intact while Aegon brooded, Daeron warred, and Baelor prayed."

If anyone kept the realm together, it seems to be Viserys, at least thus far. And we don't know either way whether Aegon approved or objected to Viserys' decisions as Hand of the King, so I can't really say anything there. But I will say this; it doesn't count as Aegon's will or Aegon's accomplishment if Aegon's just acting like a vegetable in the corner, oblivious to whatever Viserys is doing. If that's how it turns out, I refuse to credit Aegon with Viserys' accomplishments. Aegon needs to have actually taken an active interest in what's going on, or at least approved of what Viserys was doing. If he's just locked in his room and ignoring the world, who's to say Viserys ever actually ran things by Aegon before carrying them out? But we'll see how his reign really turned out (hopefully).

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I didn't mean to imply that Aegon feigned willingness to go on the progress, but at any point after he learned about the progress being planned, he could have gone to Manderly and straight up said, "I do not approve of this, and I will not take part, so don't waste your time. Also, just so you know, I intend to name a new Hand when I come of age, just keep things running until then if you please." Sure, it would have been antisocial and rude and obstinate, but if that's the kind of dick Aegon wanted to be, then whatever. But no, that wasn't enough for Aegon. He had to make a big show out of it, bring Sandoq into the room and scare the piss out of his regents, humiliate his Hand in front of everyone in attendance, and dismiss everyone without forewarning. It's the difference between giving two weeks' notice, and telling an employee that they're fired in front of their co-workers with a loaded shotgun in your hands.

Oh, but would you have done such a thing in his position? When basically his entire court were either former buddies of his evil uncle, or schemers who wanted to see him and his wife dead, or incompetent fools. And then he is basically autistic and suffering from depression.

And in light of that keep in mind that Manderly also mutilated and whipped Larra Rogare's brothers ... do you think Larra and Viserys and Aegon liked that? Do you think they approved of that?

I don't think, and Sandoq definitely reminded everybody who was in charge ... and what would happen if push came to shove.

5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

You could also use that quote to make the case that Manderly did not want to stick around as Hand, or at least that he saw it as a duty rather than a dream job. Again, I don't think Manderly was motivated by his own personal glory or ambition when he took the job. As Hand, he had to do what was best for the realm, and he had a far better idea of what that was than Aegon ever did. Manderly knew that the king's power is meaningless if nobody likes him, or if say, he's too busy brooding in his room to actually doing anything (which is all the info we've gotten on his reign thus far, until FaBII proves me wrong). The royal progress was twofold, as I say; it encourages Aegon to get out of his own head and actually try living again, and it also gives him the chance to build bonds with his subjects and lords. If he was so keen on doing what was best for the people, and giving them justice, maybe he should have gotten more invested, like Aegon V and Jaehaerys I were clearly invested. Jaehaerys actually travelled, he listened, and he was diplomatic. That sulky boy did none of that.

I'm not saying Manderly wanted to be Hand - although it is not very likely that the lords just chose him because he was there and the only compromise candidate (he was a prominent former Black, after all), I'd rather believe that quite a few people and he himself lobbied on his behalf - but it is clear he wanted (to keep) the job after he got it. And he wanted to do that progress. He felt personally insulted by the king cancelling it - which only makes sense if he was very invested in the thing. If he was not caring for the thing not all that much, he wouldn't have felt insulted.

And it is not that Manderly was humiliated by Aegon III in front of the entire court. The king came to them in the council chamber, meaning that we can expect there to have been a dozen people or so, perhaps fewer.

As for the king's popularity - that's not necessary for good government. It may help to oversee the lords, but it is not unlikely that other members of the royal family did progresses later - Viserys and Larra, later Viserys and his children, and later still the queen with young Daeron and Baelor.

At that point the progress was clearly wasting money considering the fact that neither the long winter nor the destruction of the Dance had been overcome. It's like Alyssa Velaryon's Golden Wedding - a big show which basically wastes a lot of money at a point where the Crown wasn't exactly swimming in money. Or the Tourney of the Hand, etc.

5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I'm perfectly happy to change my view of Aegon III if further details alter the image of him, but so far, it appears that he didn't do much of anything if at all. 

"Aegon was regarded as a broken king who ruled over a broken reign. Aegon was melancholic to the end of his days, found pleasure in almost nothing, and locked himself in his room to brood for days on end."

"Viserys was said to be instrumental in keeping the realm intact while Aegon brooded, Daeron warred, and Baelor prayed."

Of course, the king had his dark moods and all, but we don't know how many of those periods took place during his adulthood and how many we already saw during the Regency era. Yandel thinks Aegon III's rule was sober, indicating it was more effective than that of both his sons. Baelor the Blessed in a paramount example for a very popular king whose reign was also pretty erratic.

5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

If anyone kept the realm together, it seems to be Viserys, at least thus far. And we don't know either way whether Aegon approved or objected to Viserys' decisions as Hand of the King, so I can't really say anything there. But I will say this; it doesn't count as Aegon's will or Aegon's accomplishment if Aegon's just acting like a vegetable in the corner, oblivious to whatever Viserys is doing. If that's how it turns out, I refuse to credit Aegon with Viserys' accomplishments. Aegon needs to have actually taken an active interest in what's going on, or at least approved of what Viserys was doing. If he's just locked in his room and ignoring the world, who's to say Viserys ever actually ran things by Aegon before carrying them out? But we'll see how his reign really turned out (hopefully).

Then you leave proper discourse because in a monarchy everything the government does is the king's doing. It is his government, and everything is done in his name. In the UK that is the case to this day, never mind that the monarch doesn't really have an active hand in his government.

Aerys I and Aerys II also very pretty good kings, actually (in Aerys II's only until after Duskendale) because they named competent Hands who ruled for them. Not to mention that government work involves much more people than just the very top - just as generals can command what they want if their men suck or refuse to execute the orders of their genius officers.

[frenin]

On 1/29/2021 at 9:54 PM, Lord Varys said:

You do recall that Stannis and Renly and Jon Arryn and Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister also did serve on the small council while they were lords in their own right, right?

So did Manderly,  Stannis, Ned ,Renly and Jon Arryn were already lords when they were installed, they would have had time to solve the issues of the leadership personally. Tywin Lannister spent 6 months in the West after his father's death specifically to set the Westerlands in order, we don't know who else was available for the Manderlys but given the terrible winter that was coming, he needed to be at home overseeing his people.

 

 

On 1/29/2021 at 9:54 PM, Lord Varys said:

And Manderly was again leaving White Harbor when the lords asked him to serve as Hand. So, yes, this was him abandoning the king to the likes of Unwin Peake ... or could be seen as such.

By whom?? It's not like Peake had done anything sketchy up until the time that most blacks were gone or dead.

[Daeron the Daring]

People usually forget that just as many other people around Aegon III, Torrhen Manderly too was just an opportunist. He never befriended with Aegon, and when Jaehaera died (at that moment he was in White Harbor), he sent a letter to Unwin Peake, where he stated that Aegon should be wed to a Manderly.

People also forget how the great Torrhen Manderly threated Larra Rogare's two brothers.

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In 135 AC Roggerio was arrested at the Mermaid by Ser Marston Waters when House Rogare was accused of treason. Although the treason against King Aegon III Targaryen was later proven unfounded, the new Hand of the King, Lord Torrhen Manderly still sentenced Roggerio to seven lashes, when Roggerio asked "for what?", Lord Manderly replied "for being a thrice damned Lyseni".

Her other brother, Lotho, was sentenced to get his right hand chopped off, by Torrhen Manderly (Lotho might had been guilty in the whole Rogare bankrupt conspiracy, but was not guilty in treason against Aegon III). Viserys was the person Aegon loved the most in his entire lifetime, how should Aegon III threat the man who humiliated his sister-in-law's family?

He was a Great Hand, but not that great of a person.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

People usually forget that just as many other people around Aegon III, Torrhen Manderly too was just an opportunist. He never befriended with Aegon, and when Jaehaera died (at that moment he was in White Harbor), he sent a letter to Unwin Peake, where he stated that Aegon should be wed to a Manderly.

People also forget how the great Torrhen Manderly threated Larra Rogare's two brothers.

Her other brother, Lotho, was sentenced to get his right hand chopped off, by Torrhen Manderly (Lotho might had been guilty in the whole Rogare bankrupt conspiracy, but was not guilty in treason against Aegon III). Viserys was the person Aegon loved the most in his entire lifetime, how should Aegon III threat the man who humiliated his sister-in-law's family?

He was a Great Hand, but not that great of a person.

Yes, the impression one should have of both Aegon III and Viserys is that they did closely check who supported them during the Regency and who just did as much as they had to, who looked for their own advantage and who actively turned against the royal family.

And Manderly belongs to the category of guys who weren't enemies but weren't also die-hard followers or loyalists they would say were on board with them.

Especially Aegon III would very much remember that he had not only to thank Unwin Peake for his sadistic traitor master-at-arms ... but the entire Regency council who allowed Lord Peake to amass power and staff the royal court with his cronies.

There are no innocents there.

And Viserys was very much in love with Larra Rogare ... and it was Larra's sworn shield, Sandoq the Shadow, who protected them during the Secret Siege. Back then they couldn't count on anyone at court.

The chance that Aegon III and Viserys were okay with how Manderly treated Larra's brothers is very low. And Manderly's own priorities can be drawn from the fact that he didn't just pardon them. Or gave them less severe sentences like a fine or simple banishment. Instead, he had to mutilate one, and lash the other - which are both humiliating punishments.

[Daeron the Daring]

@Lord Varys 

This is what makes a difference between people like Torrhen and Corlys, or Unwin Peake and Cregan Stark. Because Cregan and Corlys remained loyal to a cause even after they lost their interest in it.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

@Lord Varys 

This is what makes a difference between people like Torrhen and Corlys, or Unwin Peake and Cregan Stark. Because Cregan and Corlys remained loyal to a cause even after they lost their interest in it.

I'd not say Manderly completely turned his back on 'the Black cause' ... but he didn't prioritize it either once he left court to return to White Harbor.

Corlys never really turned on Rhaenyra I'd say. He wanted to save Addam and he wanted the war to end. He was willing to work with Aegon II on that after his restoration ... but only under certain conditions, and only if Rhaenyra's son became Aegon II's heir.

That pretty much shows his true colors because Aegon III was no blood relation of Corlys Velaryon at all.

[Daeron the Daring]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd not say Manderly completely turned his back on 'the Black cause'

Neither would I. Sorry if I was misunderstandable. But his later acts just showed how he was an opportunist all along, unlike Cregan or Corlys (who, as you just said, had no bloodrelation to Aegon III, likely his loyalty to Rhaenyra's cause and his 'friendship' with Daemon made him care about the boy). He was nowhere as bad as Unwin Peake, tho, I'd never say that.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys never really turned on Rhaenyra I'd say. He wanted to save Addam and he wanted the war to end. 

Also agreed.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Neither would I. Sorry if I was misunderstandable. But his later acts just showed how he was an opportunist all along, unlike Cregan or Corlys (who, as you just said, had no bloodrelation to Aegon III, likely his loyalty to Rhaenyra's cause and his 'friendship' with Daemon made him care about the boy). He was nowhere as bad as Unwin Peake, tho, I'd never say that.

Okay ;-). I'm just thinking right now that a more opportunistic Corlys would have insisted to marry Alyn Velaryon to Jaehaera so a Velaryon could become the consort at Queen Jaehaera's side rather than do anything in his power to defend and advance Rhaenyra's son.

And we have also to keep in mind that Aegon II's people were to blame for the death of Corlys' wife, two of his grandsons (three, if you want to count Joffrey as dying because of the war), and for the loss of Addam. The man was never really in that camp.

But in general we have to keep in mind that the two factions started to disappear during the Regency ... and whatever resentment remained between the factions might have more to do with the atrocities of the war and clashes between individual lords and their retainers than the original succession issue. You also see that during the war happening when it is the savagery of the Greens at Tumbleton which really trigger the Riverlords to commit fully to Rhaenyra's cause or how for the Westermen the issue of the Ironborn is much more important than who the hell sits the Iron Throne. If Aegon III helps them deal with the Red Kraken then Johanna Lannister is perfectly fine with that.

And to be sure - the Manderlys show the opportunism right in the beginning of the war when their price for the support of Rhaenyra is that Joffrey Velaryon marries a Manderly girl.

[Canon Claude]

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

And to be sure - the Manderlys show the opportunism right in the beginning of the war when their price for the support of Rhaenyra is that Joffrey Velaryon marries a Manderly girl.

That’s one thing I never understood about that part of FaB. Why was Jace negotiating with House Manderly at all?? GRRM elevates House Manderly to a level of power and influence that seems the equivalent of House Hightower in the Reach. Jace should have gone straight to House Stark and if House Stark went to war, then so did House Manderly regardless. Why talk to House Manderly first? They don’t have that level of power in the main series, after all. They declared war as bannermen of House Stark during Robert’s Rebellion, the Greyjoy Rebellion, and the War of the Five Kings. It’s a really strange inconsistency that GRRM made.