Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN adaptation for Netflix

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Spoiler

“Dream of a Thousand Cats” was the comic almost word for word.  Loved Gaiman’s cameo.  
 

“Calliope” was… much less disturbing than the orginal comic.  I think I understand why it was toned down… but… that story is disturbing.  It should be disturbing.  Is toning it down for general audiences really the way to do that story justice?

 

[Werthead]

I wonder if they'll likewise surprise-drop A Midsummer Night's Dream in the next few weeks? That could be live action or animated. And then they've effectively completed Dream Country, bringing them up to 3 graphic novels completed out of the 10. And it makes more sense for Season 2 to then adapt Season of Mists and A Game of You. And maybe they can do the show in 4 seasons rather than 5. 

I suspect Facade isn't happening, assuming they haven't got the rights to use Element Girl and the story sends a bit of a weird message overall.

[polishgenius]

On Calliope

 

Spoiler

I don't think it was really less disturbing? I mean, it didn't show him rape her on-screen or say explicitly that he did, but it pretty definitely implies it.

Other than that, the only outright change rather than expansion seems to be they made Morpheus still feel love for Calliope.

I did like how they borrowed the 'Morpheus' name called him' from where they didn't use it in Doll's House and gave it to Calliope as a more active way of helping herself.

 

[Rippounet]

@TormundsWoman My apologies.

[mormont]

18 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

  Reveal hidden contents

“Dream of a Thousand Cats” was the comic almost word for word.  Loved Gaiman’s cameo.  
 

“Calliope” was… much less disturbing than the orginal comic.  I think I understand why it was toned down… but… that story is disturbing.  It should be disturbing.  Is toning it down for general audiences really the way to do that story justice?

 

I'm in two minds. In general, when adapting an '80s/'90s comic book, the question 'do we really need to keep this rape scene?' can confidently be answered 'no'. But this might be an ultra rare exception. What Madoc does is not just about the shock value, it's about the brutality, the force, the inhumanity of forcing the muse to bend to his will.

On the other hand, they do make it pretty obvious, right down to the scratch on his cheek after the first time. So I don't know. Was it obvious to non-comics readers?

We don't need the rape of Unity by Desire to be shown on screen, I guess, but do people recognise that was a rape too?

This does tie in to another small concern I have about the Constantine episode. Remember that in the original comic, Constantine's ex is a junkie who steals the sand, not a respectable person who finds it when Constantine leaves it in their house. The point is, Dream gives her the happy ending just the same. The cleaned up version could give a vague suspicion that the writers needed her to 'deserve' the happy ending, and that a junkie thief doesn't deserve it. That may not have been the intention, in fact it probably wasn't, but it certainly is a message one could take from that change.

[Heartofice]

37 minutes ago, mormont said:

This does tie in to another small concern I have about the Constantine episode. Remember that in the original comic, Constantine's ex is a junkie who steals the sand, not a respectable person who finds it when Constantine leaves it in their house. The point is, Dream gives her the happy ending just the same. The cleaned up version could give a vague suspicion that the writers needed her to 'deserve' the happy ending, and that a junkie thief doesn't deserve it. That may not have been the intention, in fact it probably wasn't, but it certainly is a message one could take from that change.

They seemed to make much more of the relationship Constantine had with her ex in the show than in the comic. In the comic I think he just sees a photo and mentions that he loved her etc, but they try and really establish an emotional connection in the show. Maybe it would have been too complex to show her as a thieving druggie and have it make sense as to why Joanna would love her. Who knows. I also suspect they wanted her ex to come across as a victim rather than deserving it.. maybe something woke in there.

Also I thought it was kinda vague in the comic as to whether she got a happy ending.

[Darryk]

Great bonus episode. 

 

Glad they kept the rape out of it.

[sifth]

I liked the bonus episode, though I'm not in favor of editing stuff out, even if it's suppose to be disturbing. It always gives me GoT vibes, when D&D liked to white wash characters such as Tyrion.

[polishgenius]

That's not a like-for-like comparison though. They just outright made Tyrion a more moral character. Here there's no directly comparable way to do it because (at least for the vast majority of people) showing it directly on screen would be far more visceral than the single panel and narrated depiction. But it still happened in the plot. 

[Spockydog]

Also, why put a pair of actors through the trauma of filming a rape scene when there's just no need. 

They made it pretty obvious what was going on. It was disturbing enough, thank you very much. 

[Spockydog]

Wrong thread. 

[Maltaran]

5 hours ago, mormont said:

 

On the other hand, they do make it pretty obvious, right down to the scratch on his cheek after the first time. So I don't know. Was it obvious to non-comics readers?

 

It was clear enough to me when I saw the scratch on his face

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 hours ago, mormont said:

I'm in two minds. In general, when adapting an '80s/'90s comic book, the question 'do we really need to keep this rape scene?' can confidently be answered 'no'. But this might be an ultra rare exception. What Madoc does is not just about the shock value, it's about the brutality, the force, the inhumanity of forcing the muse to bend to his will.

On the other hand, they do make it pretty obvious, right down to the scratch on his cheek after the first time. So I don't know. Was it obvious to non-comics readers?

We don't need the rape of Unity by Desire to be shown on screen, I guess, but do people recognise that was a rape too?

Very well said and well analyzed.  The scratch is a give away and I understand not wanting to portray a rape on screen.  As I said above… “Calliope” should be disturbing because of the brutality Madoc visita on Calliope.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 hours ago, Darryk said:

Great bonus episode. 

 

Glad they kept the rape out of it.

I understand they didn’t portray it.  But did they “keep the rape out of it”?  It’s implied but not stated.  What is disturbing in the comic is Madoc treating Calliope as a “thing” and not a person.  That seems… softened… in the show. 

[Rippounet]

14 hours ago, mormont said:

We don't need the rape of Unity by Desire to be shown on screen, I guess, but do people recognise that was a rape too?

The way Unity talked about it (her "golden-eyed lover" IIRC), it absolutely didn't seem to be a rape in the show.

[mormont]

8 hours ago, Rippounet said:

The way Unity talked about it (her "golden-eyed lover" IIRC), it absolutely didn't seem to be a rape in the show.

She was sleeping. She has only vague memories of the event and thinks it was a dream. No consent was sought or given.

Again, the comic is more explicit about that (without depicting it).

[Rippounet]

11 hours ago, mormont said:

Again, the comic is more explicit about that (without depicting it).

I don't know what's in the comic, so I don't know what's been cut or changed. But the changes made mean that it absolutely isn't presented as a rape in the show.

Episode 7:
Unity (smiling): "But in my dreams, I had the most glorious life. I took over my father's business, and I met a man with golden eyes, and we had a baby."

Episode 9:
Unity: "I was meant to have died a long time ago Rose. But if I had, I would never have met my golden-eyed man, and we wouldn't have had our beautiful baby girl, and you would not have been born."

11 hours ago, mormont said:

She was sleeping. She has only vague memories of the event and thinks it was a dream. No consent was sought or given.

The show never establishes that consent cannot be given because one is dreaming, or thinks they are dreaming.
In fact, the show arguably establishes the very opposite with Lyta hesitating before deciding to have Hector's baby.

Without any scene between Unity and Desire being shown, the viewer has zero reason to assume Unity was raped, and more than one to assume she was consenting.

[mormont]

23 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I don't know what's in the comic, so I don't know what's been cut or changed. But the changes made mean that it absolutely isn't presented as a rape in the show.

It absolutely is, though.

23 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Episode 7:
Unity (smiling): "But in my dreams, I had the most glorious life. I took over my father's business, and I met a man with golden eyes, and we had a baby."

So there are two points here. First, the implication (more strongly presented in the comics) is that Desire rapes Unity's body in the physical world. Second, again, Unity has only a vague memory of this and believes it not to be real, whereas Desire knows what they are doing. That is rape by deception.

Whether Unity is, overall, happy with how things turned out doesn't change the nature of what was done to her.

ETA - let me add also why this is an important story point. It establishes that Desire sees and treats humans only as tools. That's the key difference and why we can root for Dream and Death. Dream struggles with this but his friendship with Hob, his mercy to Rachel, his relationships with Nada and others, these show that he can see humans as individuals, worthy of respect. Desire doesn't. Desire, in their nature, cares only for themself.

[polishgenius]

On 8/16/2022 at 5:37 AM, Dragon in the North said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I believe she said she wasn’t physically present for every death.

 

 

Just going back to this, because I rewatched Sound of Her Wings and I remembered this little chat:

 

Spoiler

She was referring to people who don't die, with that sentence. I guess that wasn't clear for those who haven't read the comic what with Hob not having been met at that stage and as far as I can tell it the show never makes clear that Hettie is really old even if you catch her name, but yeah, she means not everyone dies.

Which does mean that is a small plot hole. She should have met Dream when Roderick died. 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, mormont said:

Again, the comic is more explicit about that (without depicting it).

To be fair, the show does add those lines Rippounet quoted- the comic as far as I recall never suggests Desire interacted with Unity at all, making it pretty clear-cut she gave no consent, but in a world where it's explicitly clear that it's possible for individuals to be fully cognizant even asleep, including at least one person, it makes it a lot less certain that that's what the showrunners were going for.

On the other hand you have the question of whether it's possible for anyone to consent to Desire at all, considering what they are.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

First, the implication (more strongly presented in the comics) is that Desire rapes Unity's body in the physical world.

Except Lyta falling pregnant in her dream means that implication doesn't exist (at least not in the show).

I had totally assumed Unity had fallen pregnant the same way (why would a viewer assume anything else?).

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Second, again, Unity has only a vague memory of this and believes it not to be real,

It may be so in the comic, but Unity says nothing like that in the show. In the show, the one information we have is that she lived a life she describes as "glorious" in which she "met" a man with whom she had a baby. That's it.

The problem here is that the show never establishes that people aren't "themselves," or think differently in the dreaming. In fact, the show repeatedly establishes the very opposite (with human characters like Rose, Lyta, and Unity appearing in both places, with no apparent changes to their thought process).

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Whether Unity is, overall, happy with how things turned out doesn't change the nature of what was done to her.

It's not just that she's happy with how things turned out, it's that she doesn't use a single negative term, tone, or facial expression, when describing the encounter (quite the contrary).
Partner even says that Unity describes the relationship "as a fairy tale."

1 hour ago, mormont said:

ETA - let me add also why this is an important story point. It establishes that Desire sees and treats humans only as tools. That's the key difference and why we can root for Dream and Death. Dream struggles with this but his friendship with Hob, his mercy to Rachel, his relationships with Nada and others, these show that he can see humans as individuals, worthy of respect. Desire doesn't. Desire, in their nature, cares only for themself.

Yeah, it did cross my mind that it was a bit odd that Desire took the time to seduce Unity. However, I simply assumed that they'd taken an attractive appearance and used their powers to bedazzle her in order to make it as quick as possible.
Again, in the show there is zero reason to assume there was no consent.

The heart of the matter is that if this is an important story point, then the show screwed up.
From my perspective, there's little reason to assume Desire is much worse than Dream: they both seem to use others (human or not) for their own gratification and feeling of self-importance. Sure, Dream gets points because he seems to be on some sort of redemption path, but his haughtiness doesn't make him much of a likable character most of the time.
 

1 hour ago, mormont said:

That is rape by deception.

Interesting. I suppose you can call it rape because of the deception alone (Desire obviously didn't present themself as one of the Endless to Unity).
I believe this corresponds to the old meaning of "seduction," which was (google tells me) "fraudulently luring someone into sexual behavior."

Edit: and just to be clear ( ), seduction used to be a crime.