Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN adaptation for Netflix

[TormundsWoman]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:23 PM, Martell Spy said:

Boyd Holbrook as The Corinthian is killing it. I have no idea what will happen, but I kind of hope isn't gone in future seasons.

Is that the actor’s name? He’s having a blast and stealing every scene he’s in. 
 

Got to ep 9 and this Rose storyline is awesome. Turns out The Sandman is a bit of an  asshole who’s too set in his ways and opposes change. Super mad for the punishment Gault’s received. That Nightmare totally stood her ground and at this point Lucienne is the rock the House Of Dreaming is built on. Lord Morpheus needs an attitude change. Soonish.

And of course I have to wonder what does it say about myself considering the fact that I am more hateful of Barnaby for abusing Jed than of the Corinthian being a serial killer… obviously my priorities, sense of gravity and proportion  of the catastrophic are questionable and deserve some introspection at other some time.  But I basically felt relieved when the Corinthian arrived before Barnaby took the belt to Jed to break every bone in his body. Of course that just means Jed went from fire to the frying pan… still, I can’t deny the feeling.

I am glad this a fantasy series. Pretty good too.

Edited August 19, 2022 by TormundsWoman

[Darryk]

15 hours ago, TormundsWoman said:

But I basically felt relieved when the Corinthian arrived before Barnaby took the belt to Jed to break every bone in his body. Of course that just means Jed went from fire to the frying pan… still, I can’t deny the feeling.

 

Yes, I'd say The Corinthian of the show is a bit greyer than in the books.

As is the David Thewlis character.

[Corvinus85]

15 hours ago, TormundsWoman said:

And of course I have to wonder what does it say about myself considering the fact that I am more hateful of Barnaby for abusing Jed than of the Corinthian being a serial killer… obviously my priorities, sense of gravity and proportion  of the catastrophic are questionable and deserve some introspection at other some time.  But I basically felt relieved when the Corinthian arrived before Barnaby took the belt to Jed to break every bone in his body. Of course that just means Jed went from fire to the frying pan… still, I can’t deny the feeling.

I don't think one can be more mad at the Corinthian that they can be at viruses that do what they do, always seeking to expand and survive.

[mormont]

But The Corinthian in the series is not like a virus, not an entity just acting in his nature. He's chosen to go well beyond that. That's why Dream is tracking him down. He's not only a killer, he inspired a whole set of serial killers and encourages them. He's an explicitly evil being.

[Corvinus85]

29 minutes ago, mormont said:

But The Corinthian in the series is not like a virus, not an entity just acting in his nature. He's chosen to go well beyond that. That's why Dream is tracking him down. He's not only a killer, he inspired a whole set of serial killers and encourages them. He's an explicitly evil being.

Did he choose, or was Dream's creation faulty and he was always going to evolve in this way?

[Kalnestk Oblast]

I had thought specifically Dream had said that the fault was Dream's and that this was exactly what he made him to be. 

Though the end of that arc really showcases what a complete douchebag Dream can be. He has the power to make every single serial killer present completely remorseful for their actions. Permanently and in many cases, lethally. He could choose to do this on a more global scale and wipe out ridiculous amounts of evil. 

He does it because he is peeved and specifically emotional at that point. 

[TormundsWoman]

To jump in the Corinthian stuff: I believe that he has some choice and dreams (even if that may be to be the best serial killer ever). And Just like Gault who aspired to change her very nature, we now know the Fiddler's Green, Gault and the Corinthian had that in common. So I personally don't think he's stuck in the "he is designed to do that so we cannot really hate him for it". He may choose to keep doing that and that's the crux of the issue.

[briantw]

Very much enjoyed it overall.  I thought it peaked with episodes five and six, though.  

[sifth]

So I read we can thank J.J. Abrams for John Constantine not appearing in this show. Abrams, is/was apparently making a show for HBO Max, but put a stipulation in his contract, that all other versions of the John Constantine character have to be removed from all current projects being developed or currently on tv. This is also why Matt Ryan's version of Constantine was written out of Legends of Tomorrow. 

[Myrddin]

TBF, Johanna Constantine worked fine. Jenna Coleman is always welcome.

If this was an official "DCEU" show, the connection would've been fun, but not critical, in this season anyway.

How much is Constantine involved in future comic story lines? 

[polishgenius]

33 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

How much is Constantine involved in future comic story lines? 

 

John? Not at all. A past version of Johanna, a fair bit.


 

1 hour ago, sifth said:

This is also why Matt Ryan's version of Constantine was written out of Legends of Tomorrow. 

 

If that's true that's a cunt move.

[Maithanet]

Finished the series and overall enjoyed it a lot.  Ep 6 was the high point for the season, as both those stories were delightful. 

Didn't care for Ep 5 (24/7), but then I didn't like it in the comics either.  It felt even more drawn out than the comics, which I didn't need. 

Boyd Holbrooke was a great Corinthian.  I was a little concerned about changing Death, since she's such a popular character in the comics.  But Kirby Howell-Baptiste did a fine job, I'm waiting to see more.  Lucifer didn't hit quite right, but I wasn't sure if it was the writing or the acting that felt off.  I hope they don't expand Lucifer's character in the show because (from what I remember) Lucifer wasn't around much anyway.  Most of the other actors were fine, if unspectacular. 

Overall this is a challenging work to adapt, and they have done it.  This series could have been an unwatchable mess, and instead it felt like a very fresh fantasy story, a rare thing indeed.  The adaptation doesn't get any easier in future seasons, so I hope they are up to the challenge. 

[Werthead]

5 hours ago, Myrddin said:

How much is Constantine involved in future comic story lines? 

To reinforce that point, that is the only moment John Constantine appears in the entire comics run. Johanna Constantine plays a major role in another flashback storyline later on.

[Myrddin]

So I guess it makes sense to have a single actor play both present day Constantine and her ancestor.

 

As an aside, I think Boyd Holbrook would be an awesome John Constantine should DCEU get their act into gear.

[Rippounet]

Finished it tonight. Never read the comics. Was a bit of a rollercoaster for me.

I absolutely loved the first half of the season. A bit slow at first (episodes 1 & 2), then picks up with the appearance of Constantine (actually liked the sex swap, personally, it added some form of sexual (?) tension). Episodes 4 and 5 were absolutely amazing for me (Christie was a great Lucifer imho). Episode 6 was perhaps my favorite (Howell-Baptiste is perhaps the best death I've ever seen on-screen).
And then, I'm afraid to say, I really didn't like it.
I liked the grandeur and the -gothic?- atmosphere of the first half of the season. And then, the story suddenly focuses on a rather normal person (Rose Walker), with a moderately tragic past and a very down-to-earth quest (finding her lost brother)... And all that in today's world, though with some Tim burton feels to it - for some reason.

Spoiler

And somehow, Walker has as much power as Dream, who is "endless" and thousands of eyars old? It all felt very contrived and poorly written to me. Even the acting wasn't as good imho: Sturridge is great as an emotionless demi-god, not so much when he has to be sorry, and I found some of his scenes with Acheampong terrible.

TBH, the feel was so different that I assumed episodes 7-10 were not in the original comic, and was mildly surprised when google told me that Rose Walker was, in fact, there from the start.
I guess I liked The Sandman best when it was this kind of intemporal fantastic tale of mages and gods - not so much when it told stories of regular people. Having read the whole thread, I understand it'll have a bit of both.

Off-topic

On 8/16/2022 at 12:14 AM, TormundsWoman said:

Yes I am still of the opinion that humans are selfish and self-centered at heart, that we are not inherently good. There’s a reason why we yell at our kids when they grab other kids’ toys to ask nicely if they can take a turn, or repeat at nauseam that they need to be nice and sharing is caring, or to remind them not to lie to us because we are on a need to know basis about things that concern them. All the time.

Sure there are kids that don’t need ANY parenting or any teaching and they’ll know to be considerate & truthful (at the same time, not separately), they are good and do the right thing for the fellow kid by instinct even if they think is detrimental to their immediate desires. But honestly I have not seen one in my life and they seem to be mythical creatures to most parents I know or talked to. I’m sure they exist though.

Very weird. I worked with kids for about a decade, and saw the same little twats stealing toys one day be considerate and thoughtful the following day (comforting another kid crying for instance, even without knowing an adult was watching).
All the time.
Not sure why people think it smart or deep to paint our species as fundamentally self-centered and selfish. Obviously there's more to it than that, and it's far more interesting to think and read about "the human heart in conflict" (Martin agreeing with Faulkner). Not that we're not self-centered, mind you, but focusing on that is a nocebo or "golem effect": if that's what you believe, then that's what you'll be. I'd personally rather dream myself as less selfish than I actually am... YMMV I guess.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Rippounet

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

On 8/15/2022 at 2:04 AM, Heartofice said:

I'm still slowly working my way through the series, just through lack of time more than anything else. I got stuck at Ep5: 24/7, because I've also been doing a re-read of the comics, and it has been a very long time since I saw them, and certainly missed quite a few it seems. 24/7 in the comics isn't a story I especially loved, having just read it, it feels like a tale I've seen a few times, I mostly tried to rush through it.

So I wasn't very enthusiastic about seeing it on screen, knowing where it's going felt like it was going to be a chore. But it was a big improvement on the original, mainly I think because Thewlis is a brilliant actor and adds a level of humanity to a character who came across like a hokey Gollum at times in the comic. The characters in the diner were also far more human and engaging, less like caricatures. So it's good to see how these things can be improved upon.

As for wokeness, I'm generally pretty put off by shows and movies that try to wear their woke badge front and centre, mainly because I don't think you get extra points for that in 2022, and you can't use it to cover bad writing. The general issue I think people have with 'wokeness' in movies is when there seems to be a modern agenda hammered onto the top of a classic property, superseding the intent of the original to make a political point. It's hard to criticise Sandman here because the original was doing all these things anyway, it doesn't feel like there are too many unnecessary changes, and it feels in the sprit of the comics. Yes there are times where it feels pretty egregious, but mostly it's when they bring in simply bad actors, it feels like a pat on the head to minorities rather than a showcase. 
 

It's worth remembering that 'woke' as an insult didn't come out of nowhere, it was a reaction to a real phenomenon of mostly white, mostly middle class hyper sensitive online activists who were trying to prove how 'woke' they were to the world, mainly by raging at people and crying. There is a reason the term evolved to mean something different to it's original meaning, and it's also interesting that 'woke sensibility' took over much of main stream media in the last few years, so that it basically is the mainstream institutional view. 

"Woke" is a bit like satanic messages in '80's rock music. If someone is looking and expecting to find that, they probably will. And at what point does people screeching about, "political correctness" become its own form of political correctness? As far as I can tell, the usual suspects (mostly on Youtube) are just as strident and zealous as the people they claim to be criticizing. 

And I wouldn't underestimate the impact of social media scumbags who figured out how to make a living by monetizing, "I'm-not-a-bigot-but". Facebook figured out years ago that people who are pissed off generate more clicks. 

Look at the reaction to the first Star Trek: Discovery or Prey Trailers. I really liked the early seasons of Discovery and I thought Prey was one of the better Predator films. As far as I could tell, there was nothing even remotely "Woke" about the marketing of those projects, but the moment the scumbags see a WOC on screen, they lose their shit. The first Prey trailer alone probably generated thousands in superchat moneys on hours of commentary.  

[TormundsWoman]

I

On 8/16/2022 at 7:04 PM, TormundsWoman said:

Lord Morpheus needs an attitude change. Soonish.

Quoting myself is such bad form, but wanted to say, I almost never get what I want and now I did. Loved the fact Lord of Dreams saw value in the work Lucienne does enough to admit he needs help and searched her for input on a situation he was not familiar with.

I was surprised to see what turn the Lyta story took. I assumed that her dream husband was actually a dream that took the form of her dead husband as he fell in love with her, and that's why he was able to have a baby with her. I suppose like Desire had one with Roses grand-grandma. We will have to see what happens now that Rose no longer can defend Lyta and her baby from Morpheus. Will he change his mind about taking the baby to the Dreaming.

I particularly liked the Fiddler's Green involvement and had an inkling Gilbert was not human but when he crossed paths with the Corinthian at the Cereal Convention, all clicked in place.

Looking forward to the second season if they renew it. Gaiman's series tend to do well, so I'm happy for him and for all of us who enjoy his books.

[TormundsWoman]

2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I worked with kids for about a decade, and saw the same little twats stealing toys one day be considerate and thoughtful the following day (comforting another kid crying for instance, even without knowing an adult was watching).
All the time.

To my knowledge and from multiple discussions with my family members who studied child development the empathy and altruism is developed and has pathways to the prefrontal cortex. That is a region that's not developed in young children, so parental reinforcement is necessary. Put that on top of the fact they have difficulty to control impulses as they are not mature enough to do so and it makes it difficult for me to change my mind that children are self centered. There's debate on the fact that these specific pathways that result in altruistic behavior may develop regardless of the medium influence but nothing really definitive so far.

Obviously mine was just personal opinion that no one asked for, based on experience and whatever science I know of, but my comment: it wasn't meant to be deep or anything like that.

I do appreciate the subtle insult though. I won't take it personally but will keep off topic and general opinions no one asked for to oneself.

[RumHam]

I'm just an uncle but in my experience kids are sponges. They soak up whatever is around them and you try not to think about how dirty they are.

[Heartofice]

4 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

"Woke" is a bit like satanic messages in '80's rock music. If someone is looking and expecting to find that, they probably will. And at what point does people screeching about, "political correctness" become its own form of political correctness? As far as I can tell, the usual suspects (mostly on Youtube) are just as strident and zealous as the people they claim to be criticizing. 

And I wouldn't underestimate the impact of social media scumbags who figured out how to make a living by monetizing, "I'm-not-a-bigot-but". Facebook figured out years ago that people who are pissed off generate more clicks. 

Look at the reaction to the first Star Trek: Discovery or Prey Trailers. I really liked the early seasons of Discovery and I thought Prey was one of the better Predator films. As far as I could tell, there was nothing even remotely "Woke" about the marketing of those projects, but the moment the scumbags see a WOC on screen, they lose their shit. The first Prey trailer alone probably generated thousands in superchat moneys on hours of commentary.  

I think it’s hard to deny that there has been an overt move by a lot of the media and movies to project a positive progressive message in a lot of their movies and shows. If a viewer is naturally left leaning then it would seem so unarguable and normal that you probably wouldn’t even notice it, maybe even celebrate it. But it happens, it’s not some made up boogeyman. 
 

Which is why I am not surprised by the reaction to the Prey trailer. Given past experience it wouldn’t be surprising to see yet another movie where a small female character is able to easily overpower a much bigger adversary, it’s a bit of a meme now. Just because Prey wasn’t that, and it’s main character wasn’t a Mary Sue, doesn’t mean those fears weren’t based on experience or unexpected.

I think you could throw some legit criticism at Discovery for being overtly woke as well, but mainly it’s just a bad show so it’s not worth discussing.
 

As for sandman, yes it certainly takes a progressive position and at times goes quite far but it doesn’t feel preachy and it’s consistent with the source material which is why I think it gets more of a pass. Being good also usually helps these things, mostly when movies replace ‘being good’ with ‘telling the message’ is when there is the most complaint.