Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN adaptation for Netflix

[Ran]

They've released the bonus episode of Sandman, adapting "Calliope" and "Dream of a Thousand Cats".

ETA: Been too busy to speed along with the show, ourselves. Finished episode 3 last night. Verdict? We quite liked Johanna Constantine, but thought the pacing of the episode was pretty poor. It dragged a lot. Still, on to episode 4, looking forward to how Lucifer and Hell are depicted.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Ran

[Calibandar]

11 hours ago, Rippounet said:

 

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And somehow, Walker has as much power as Dream, who is "endless" and thousands of eyars old? It all felt very contrived and poorly written to me. Even the acting wasn't as good imho: Sturridge is great as an emotionless demi-god, not so much when he has to be sorry, and I found some of his scenes with Acheampong terrible.

TBH, the feel was so different that I assumed episodes 7-10 were not in the original comic, and was mildly surprised when google told me that Rose Walker was, in fact, there from the start.
I guess I liked The Sandman best when it was this kind of intemporal fantastic tale of mages and gods - not so much when it told stories of regular people. 

 

I agree, and  this is because the regular humans are just boring. Rose Walker and her entire entourage is a snorefest and there is a lot of that in the 2nd half.

I hope it gets renewed soon and they start working on season 2 so we may see it next year, it has some interesting storylines lined up.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Spoiler

“Dream of a Thousand Cats” was the comic almost word for word.  Loved Gaiman’s cameo.  
 

“Calliope” was… much less disturbing than the orginal comic.  I think I understand why it was toned down… but… that story is disturbing.  It should be disturbing.  Is toning it down for general audiences really the way to do that story justice?

 

[Werthead]

I wonder if they'll likewise surprise-drop A Midsummer Night's Dream in the next few weeks? That could be live action or animated. And then they've effectively completed Dream Country, bringing them up to 3 graphic novels completed out of the 10. And it makes more sense for Season 2 to then adapt Season of Mists and A Game of You. And maybe they can do the show in 4 seasons rather than 5. 

I suspect Facade isn't happening, assuming they haven't got the rights to use Element Girl and the story sends a bit of a weird message overall.

[polishgenius]

On Calliope

 

Spoiler

I don't think it was really less disturbing? I mean, it didn't show him rape her on-screen or say explicitly that he did, but it pretty definitely implies it.

Other than that, the only outright change rather than expansion seems to be they made Morpheus still feel love for Calliope.

I did like how they borrowed the 'Morpheus' name called him' from where they didn't use it in Doll's House and gave it to Calliope as a more active way of helping herself.

 

[Rippounet]

@TormundsWoman My apologies.

[mormont]

18 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

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“Dream of a Thousand Cats” was the comic almost word for word.  Loved Gaiman’s cameo.  
 

“Calliope” was… much less disturbing than the orginal comic.  I think I understand why it was toned down… but… that story is disturbing.  It should be disturbing.  Is toning it down for general audiences really the way to do that story justice?

 

I'm in two minds. In general, when adapting an '80s/'90s comic book, the question 'do we really need to keep this rape scene?' can confidently be answered 'no'. But this might be an ultra rare exception. What Madoc does is not just about the shock value, it's about the brutality, the force, the inhumanity of forcing the muse to bend to his will.

On the other hand, they do make it pretty obvious, right down to the scratch on his cheek after the first time. So I don't know. Was it obvious to non-comics readers?

We don't need the rape of Unity by Desire to be shown on screen, I guess, but do people recognise that was a rape too?

This does tie in to another small concern I have about the Constantine episode. Remember that in the original comic, Constantine's ex is a junkie who steals the sand, not a respectable person who finds it when Constantine leaves it in their house. The point is, Dream gives her the happy ending just the same. The cleaned up version could give a vague suspicion that the writers needed her to 'deserve' the happy ending, and that a junkie thief doesn't deserve it. That may not have been the intention, in fact it probably wasn't, but it certainly is a message one could take from that change.

[Heartofice]

37 minutes ago, mormont said:

This does tie in to another small concern I have about the Constantine episode. Remember that in the original comic, Constantine's ex is a junkie who steals the sand, not a respectable person who finds it when Constantine leaves it in their house. The point is, Dream gives her the happy ending just the same. The cleaned up version could give a vague suspicion that the writers needed her to 'deserve' the happy ending, and that a junkie thief doesn't deserve it. That may not have been the intention, in fact it probably wasn't, but it certainly is a message one could take from that change.

They seemed to make much more of the relationship Constantine had with her ex in the show than in the comic. In the comic I think he just sees a photo and mentions that he loved her etc, but they try and really establish an emotional connection in the show. Maybe it would have been too complex to show her as a thieving druggie and have it make sense as to why Joanna would love her. Who knows. I also suspect they wanted her ex to come across as a victim rather than deserving it.. maybe something woke in there.

Also I thought it was kinda vague in the comic as to whether she got a happy ending.

[Darryk]

Great bonus episode. 

 

Glad they kept the rape out of it.

[sifth]

I liked the bonus episode, though I'm not in favor of editing stuff out, even if it's suppose to be disturbing. It always gives me GoT vibes, when D&D liked to white wash characters such as Tyrion.

[polishgenius]

That's not a like-for-like comparison though. They just outright made Tyrion a more moral character. Here there's no directly comparable way to do it because (at least for the vast majority of people) showing it directly on screen would be far more visceral than the single panel and narrated depiction. But it still happened in the plot. 

[Spockydog]

Also, why put a pair of actors through the trauma of filming a rape scene when there's just no need. 

They made it pretty obvious what was going on. It was disturbing enough, thank you very much. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Spockydog

[Spockydog]

Wrong thread. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Spockydog

[Maltaran]

5 hours ago, mormont said:

 

On the other hand, they do make it pretty obvious, right down to the scratch on his cheek after the first time. So I don't know. Was it obvious to non-comics readers?

 

It was clear enough to me when I saw the scratch on his face

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 hours ago, mormont said:

I'm in two minds. In general, when adapting an '80s/'90s comic book, the question 'do we really need to keep this rape scene?' can confidently be answered 'no'. But this might be an ultra rare exception. What Madoc does is not just about the shock value, it's about the brutality, the force, the inhumanity of forcing the muse to bend to his will.

On the other hand, they do make it pretty obvious, right down to the scratch on his cheek after the first time. So I don't know. Was it obvious to non-comics readers?

We don't need the rape of Unity by Desire to be shown on screen, I guess, but do people recognise that was a rape too?

Very well said and well analyzed.  The scratch is a give away and I understand not wanting to portray a rape on screen.  As I said above… “Calliope” should be disturbing because of the brutality Madoc visita on Calliope.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 hours ago, Darryk said:

Great bonus episode. 

 

Glad they kept the rape out of it.

I understand they didn’t portray it.  But did they “keep the rape out of it”?  It’s implied but not stated.  What is disturbing in the comic is Madoc treating Calliope as a “thing” and not a person.  That seems… softened… in the show. 

[Rippounet]

14 hours ago, mormont said:

We don't need the rape of Unity by Desire to be shown on screen, I guess, but do people recognise that was a rape too?

The way Unity talked about it (her "golden-eyed lover" IIRC), it absolutely didn't seem to be a rape in the show.

[mormont]

8 hours ago, Rippounet said:

The way Unity talked about it (her "golden-eyed lover" IIRC), it absolutely didn't seem to be a rape in the show.

She was sleeping. She has only vague memories of the event and thinks it was a dream. No consent was sought or given.

Again, the comic is more explicit about that (without depicting it).

[Rippounet]

11 hours ago, mormont said:

Again, the comic is more explicit about that (without depicting it).

I don't know what's in the comic, so I don't know what's been cut or changed. But the changes made mean that it absolutely isn't presented as a rape in the show.

Episode 7:
Unity (smiling): "But in my dreams, I had the most glorious life. I took over my father's business, and I met a man with golden eyes, and we had a baby."

Episode 9:
Unity: "I was meant to have died a long time ago Rose. But if I had, I would never have met my golden-eyed man, and we wouldn't have had our beautiful baby girl, and you would not have been born."

11 hours ago, mormont said:

She was sleeping. She has only vague memories of the event and thinks it was a dream. No consent was sought or given.

The show never establishes that consent cannot be given because one is dreaming, or thinks they are dreaming.
In fact, the show arguably establishes the very opposite with Lyta hesitating before deciding to have Hector's baby.

Without any scene between Unity and Desire being shown, the viewer has zero reason to assume Unity was raped, and more than one to assume she was consenting.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Rippounet

[mormont]

23 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I don't know what's in the comic, so I don't know what's been cut or changed. But the changes made mean that it absolutely isn't presented as a rape in the show.

It absolutely is, though.

23 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Episode 7:
Unity (smiling): "But in my dreams, I had the most glorious life. I took over my father's business, and I met a man with golden eyes, and we had a baby."

So there are two points here. First, the implication (more strongly presented in the comics) is that Desire rapes Unity's body in the physical world. Second, again, Unity has only a vague memory of this and believes it not to be real, whereas Desire knows what they are doing. That is rape by deception.

Whether Unity is, overall, happy with how things turned out doesn't change the nature of what was done to her.

ETA - let me add also why this is an important story point. It establishes that Desire sees and treats humans only as tools. That's the key difference and why we can root for Dream and Death. Dream struggles with this but his friendship with Hob, his mercy to Rachel, his relationships with Nada and others, these show that he can see humans as individuals, worthy of respect. Desire doesn't. Desire, in their nature, cares only for themself.

Edited August 21, 2022 by mormont