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Barbrey Dustin’s visit at the crypts.


Lilac & Gooseberries

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As we can see so far Barbrey Dustin seems to be one of the arguably very few of Roose’s Northern supporters. That been said, I was always doubtful about where her true alliance lay and after a new reread of Theon’s chapter in the crypts I had a new theory.  But let’s take one step at the time.

Firstly we see that her hatred for Rickard, or the Starks comes from the fact that she lost Brandon and that she has never been a Stark herself

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Why do you love the Starks?"

"I …" Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. "… I wanted to be one of them …"

"And never could. We have more in common than you know, my lord. But come."

She also dislikes Ned because he left Willam’s bones in Dorne, even if for the last 16 years she hasn’t tried to collect them herself. Which could make someone wonder if she cared about Willam’s bones at all.

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"Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests … but I promise you, Lord Eddard's bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs."

If she knew that Ned’s bones were not in the crypts why she was there?

In the crypts we learn about her hatred of the Maesters or as she calls them the grey rats and the love the Northmen have for the Stark. Furthermore we see that there are some swords missing from and old King in the North, Rickard and Brandon.

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"That king is missing his sword," Lady Dustin observed.

It was true. Theon did not recall which king it was, but the longsword he should have held was gone. Streaks of rust remained to show where it had been. The sight disquieted him. He had always heard that the iron in the sword kept the spirits of the dead locked within their tombs. If a sword was missing …

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Only a little farther on, three tombs were closely grouped together. That was where they halted. "Lord Rickard," Lady Dustin observed, studying the central figure. The statue loomed above them—long-faced, bearded, solemn. He had the same stone eyes as the rest, but his looked sad. "He lacks a sword as well."

It was true. "Someone has been down here stealing swords. Brandon's is gone as well."

That seems to be an information that she doesn't share with Roose. After Aenys Frey's squire was found dead Barbrey assures them

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"Even Dustins out of Barrowton." Lady Dustin parted her lips in a thin, feral smile. "The north remembers, Frey."

My theory is that Barbrey Dustin plays her own game and after the crypts she decides to be a part of the Grand Northern Conspiracy. She wouldn’t support Roose after Domeric’s murder since Ramsey is his heir and she adored her nephew. But until her seeing that the swords were missing which could be a sign of the younger Starks had survived the Fall of Winterfell she had to follow the Boltons for safety reasons, much like Manderly. After all the Starks who had in a way harmed her were dear and as she confirms the Northmen fear the Dreadfort, but they love the Starks.

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It's an interesting theory that Lady Dustin actually makes a decision based on what she sees in the crypts. Her allegiance to the Boltons is definitely questionable, but even then it's a good observation that she might be a lone player deciding on her moves as she sees events unfold rather than an active conspirator from the beginning. Would she guess that Bran and Rickon may have been hiding in the crypts for a while? Did she take Theon there to watch how he would behave and deduce whether he might or might not have thought of looking for anyone there? Had she seen the missing swords before and did she want to find out if Theon knew anything about them?

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4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

It's an interesting theory that Lady Dustin actually makes a decision based on what she sees in the crypts. Her allegiance to the Boltons is definitely questionable, but even then it's a good observation that she might be a lone player deciding on her moves as she sees events unfold rather than an active conspirator from the beginning. Would she guess that Bran and Rickon may have been hiding in the crypts for a while? Did she take Theon there to watch how he would behave and deduce whether he might or might not have thought of looking for anyone there? Had she seen the missing sword before and did she want to find out if Theon knew anything about them?

If I had to guess I would say that there are many ways that she could know that. One is the same way Wyman learns about Rickon. Someone heard something and the gossip got to her ears. The other is that some of the lords, like a Liddle, informed her in order to warn her, the wolves will come again don't get caught on the wrong side. Or my totally tinfoil and unbassed theory, that there is a much older Grand Northern Conspiracy in place. This theory of mine is that the Grand Northern Conspiracy in the books is just the result of an ancient alliance between the Northern lords that was created to defend and help their overlord in their times of need, an alliance that the Boltons are not a part. To me it was intriguing how they have never been married with a Stark as far as we know anyway, even if I recently learn that this might be because of the Bolton’s fashion taste and GRRM other novels, especially since intermarriage seemed to be a way for peace between Houses. The other thing that inspired that idea was the Company of the Rose, self exiled Northmen that they loved their way of life. What if they are a kind or Northern Golden Company whose utter goal is to come back and take back their Northern life style?

Taking Theon to the crypts could be a way for her to see if the missing swords were something he knew or not. If he knew it was either because he was involved either when he took Winterfell or when the Boltons did and if he didn’t know it would mean that someone else had taken them and the survival of Rickon and Bran would had been even more possible. 

I find her North remembers moment being a nod to the others conspirators that she has made her choice to be on their side.


 

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Interesting theory! Lady Dustin does seem to have a hidden agenda of some sort.

I have another theory about why she went to the crypt. (Truly, it may not be entirely mine; this subject came up some time ago, and I honestly don't remember who said what. Apologies to anyone whom I've forgotten to credit.)

Every good castle as an escape tunnel, so that the inhabitants can get out if the castle is under attack or siege. It's possible that the real reason Barbrey went down to the crypt is because she was hoping to find this tunnel, either to escape or to bring someone inside.

And of course, it's possible that she was just bored, and went there from a mix of sentiment and idle curiosity ... or more precisely, because GRRM wanted to use the dialog to fill in some details about the history and politics of the North. At the time, there wasn't much else to do for fun around Winterfell.

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I always thought that some Manderly, Umber, Glover or any member of the GNC tried to get her to join them by telling her Wex's story, and then she went to the cripts to confirm it.

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I always found odd these two quotes:

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More snowmen had risen in the yard by the time Theon Greyjoy made his way back. To command the snowy sentinels on the walls, the squires had erected a dozen snowy lords. One was plainly meant to be Lord Manderly; it was the fattest snowman that Theon had ever seen. The one-armed lord could only be Harwood Stout, the snow lady Barbrey Dustin. And the one closest to the door with the beard made of icicles had to be old Whoresbane Umber.

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Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. 

Manderly is certainly working against Boltons, but Umbers also have brought old men to Winterfell, while young are outside walls - usually older Northmen are prepare to sacrifice themselves for their offspring.

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58 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

I always found odd these two quotes:

Manderly is certainly working against Boltons, but Umbers also have brought old men to Winterfell, while young are outside walls - usually older Northmen are prepare to sacrifice themselves for their offspring.

You are right. The snowmen were one of the steps and I forgot about it. That said it is after Barbrey saw them that she forced Theon to show her the crypts. She was so determined to go down there that she had her people to break the ice and she even seemed to trust Theon enough without knowing if he would had betrayed to Roose 

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Lady Dustin wore black, as ever, though her sleeves were lined with vair. Her gown had a high stiff collar that framed her face. "You know this castle."

"Once."

"Somewhere beneath us are the crypts where the old Stark kings sit in darkness. My men have not been able to find the way down into them. They have been through all the undercrofts and cellars, even the dungeons, but ..."

"The crypts cannot be accessed from the dungeons, my lady."

"Can you show me the way down?"

"There's nothing down there but - "

" - dead Starks? Aye. And all my favorite Starks are dead, as it happens. Do you know the way or not?"

"I do." He did not like the crypts, had never liked the crypts, but he was no stranger to them.

"Show me. Serjeant, fetch a lantern."

"My lady will want a warm cloak," cautioned Theon. "We will need to go outside."

The snow was coming down heavier than ever when they left the hall, with Lady Dustin wrapped in sable. Huddled in their hooded cloaks, the guards outside were almost indistinguishable from the snowmen. Only their breath fogging the air gave proof that they still lived. Fires burned along the battlements, a vain attempt to drive the gloom away. Their small party found themselves slogging through a smooth, unbroken expanse of white that came halfway up their calves. The tents in the yard were half-buried, sagging under the weight of the accumulation.

The entrance to the crypts was in the oldest section of the castle, near the foot of the First Keep, which had sat unused for hundreds of years. Ramsay had put it to the torch when he sacked Winterfell, and much of what had not burned had collapsed. Only a shell remained, one side open to the elements and filling up with snow. Rubble was strewn all about it: great chunks of shattered masonry, burned beams, broken gargoyles. The falling snow had covered almost all of it, but part of one gargoyle still poked above the drift, its grotesque face snarling sightless at the sky. This is where they found Bran when he fell. Theon had been out hunting that day, riding with Lord Eddard and King Robert, with no hint of the dire news that awaited them back at the castle. He remembered Robb's face when they told him. No one had expected the broken boy to live. The gods could not kill Bran, no more than I could. It was a strange thought, and stranger still to remember that Bran might still be alive.

"There." Theon pointed to where a snowbank had crept up the wall of the keep. "Under there. Watch for broken stones."

It took Lady Dustin's men the better part of half an hour to uncover the entrance, shoveling through the snow and shifting rubble. When they did, the door was frozen shut. Her serjeant had to go find an axe before he could pull it open, hinges screaming, to reveal stone steps spiraling down into darkness.

 

She acts like what is down there worth the danger of Roose finding out that she was snooping around the castle. As if Roose is not goin g to be a danger for long and especially not as long as other Northmen who loath the Boltons are there too. Not even Ramsay would had attacked the head of  house Dustin, a Ryswell by birth. 

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Ramsay’s face darkened. “If I cut off her teats and feed them to my girls, will she abide me then? Will she abide me if I strip off her skin to make myself a pair of boots?”

“Unlikely. And those boots would come dear. They would cost us Barrowton, House Dustin, and the Ryswells.” Roose Bolton seated himself across the table from his son. “Barbrey Dustin is my second wife’s younger sister, Rodrik Ryswell’s daughter, sister to Roger, Rickard, and mine own namesake, Roose, cousin to the other Ryswells. She was fond of my late son and suspects you of having some part in his demise. Lady Barbrey is a woman who knows how to nurse a grievance. Be grateful for that. Barrowton is staunch for Bolton largely because she still holds Ned Stark to blame for her husband’s death.”

 

And after the death of Roger Ryswell's man at arms when Aenys claims that Wyman killed his Frey cousins, which was masterfully done, the Ryswells seem to follow Lady Dustin.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

usually older Northmen are prepare to sacrifice themselves for their offspring.

This is one of the best parts of their society. They do things for the common good and for what is right. Torrhen bent the knee to save his people from a second Field of Fire, Ned chose to save Cersei's children over himself, Cregan punished the people who killed the King, Jon helped the wildlings, and the old sacrifice themselves for the future generation.

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14 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

And after the death of Roger Ryswell's man at arms when Aenys claims that Wyman killed his Frey cousins, which was masterfully done, the Ryswells seem to follow Lady Dustin.

I think there is enough in the text to suggest that the Ryswells may have turned on Roose.

First, there's Rickard Ryswell who Theon sees nuzzling one of Abel's washerwomen. The spearwives have been killing people, but this Ryswell isn't harmed.

Second, when Hosteen Frey threatens Wyman Manderly, it's Barbrey and Roger who calm the situation between the Freys and the Manderly knights who stood to defend their lord.

And Barbrey and Roger are present when Theon is brought to Roose Bolton to be questioned about the murders. Roger tells the people present there that Manderly has nothing to do with the murders and Barbrey straight up threatens the Freys and Roose with that line about Lady Hornwood eating her fingers.

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3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think there is enough in the text to suggest that the Ryswells may have turned on Roose.

I agree with this one

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“Lord Wyman is not the only man who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers. Flints, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Slates… They all had men with the Young Wolf.”

“House Ryswell, too,” said Roger Ryswell.

“Even Dustins out of Barrowton.” Lady Dustin parted her lips in a thin, feral smile. “The north remembers, Frey.” 

 

All of those happened after she went to the crypts. She saw something there that made her decide whose side she is on and she took the Ryswells with her leaving Roose with only the Freys.

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Reaching the conclusion that Lady D went to the wedding to be convinced is plausible.  How many more are there to decide the fate of the North--war or flayed men?  What of the powerful lords of the north we have no insight to?   While the invitations to the wedding were no doubt compulsory ,Roose Bolton cannot have many allies among the northern lords.   He betrayed many more than simply Starks, as our lady is quick to point out.  This is a perfect opportunity to decide their fates, fight or join a known enemy in the Boltons.  We can pull it all apart and go at conspiracy from at least 3 angles, but I personally think there is something to the OP about levels of involvement with tradition and possibly legend in this case.  Our little catch phrase, "the north remembers" says a great deal about a people who have for the most part forgotten.  This line references current events, which are plenty bad enough without entertaining the echoes of duty to pacts made by humans and COTF long dead.  Who knows?   Maybe giants, too.  The North has known no other king since the Kings of Winter.  Why the hell would they just take up with a flayed man?  They wouldn't.   They would speak among themselves in quiet rebellion because this isn't the way it goes in the North. 

The wedding reminds me a great deal of the circumstances at Harrenhal.  Aerys' reign had begun to crumble.   Rhaegar sought an opportunity to gauge support for some sort of change and Harrenhal was his place.   I can see where Lady D and others would do the same thing at Winterfell.  

Manderly is at his own game with Glover and probably Umber here.  Lady D and the Ryswells no doubt have common interests here.  The Mormonts, Glovers and Reeds have a cute little conspiracy in their midst.   While there is no evidence of a single unified theory of rebellion here, there is plenty of evidence of numerous smaller coalitions against the Boltons.   They either collide or aggregate at Winterfell.   

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23 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

My theory is that Barbrey Dustin plays her own game and after the crypts she decides to be a part of the Grand Northern Conspiracy. She wouldn’t support Roose after Domeric’s murder since Ramsey is his heir and she adored her nephew. But until her seeing that the swords were missing which could be a sign of the younger Starks had survived the Fall of Winterfell she had to follow the Boltons for safety reasons, much like Manderly. After all the Starks who had in a way harmed her were dear and as she confirms the Northmen fear the Dreadfort, but they love the Starks.

My take is that all the Stark hatred she espouses is a lie, and that there is a secret entrance to Winterfell in the crypts.

This makes it very easy to see what Lady D is doing:

She, and the other northern lords, need to open the secret entrance, but the entire castle is covered in new-fallen snow, and the entrance to the crypts is covered in ice and debris. So they come up with this excuse of her looking for Ned's bones as the cover story to accomplish two things: it unblocks the entrance, and it leaves a trail of footprints through the snow back to the castle. This allows someone to enter the castle while also covering their tracks.

It was right after this little visit, after all, that the murders began.

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30 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So they come up with this excuse of her looking for Ned's bones as the cover story to accomplish two things:

She doesn't use this excuse 

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“Catelyn Tully dispatched Lord Eddard’s bones north before the Red Wedding, but your iron uncle seized Moat Cailin and closed the way. I have been watching ever since. Should those bones ever emerge from the swamps, they will get no farther than Barrowton.”

She tells Theon that she doesn't look for bones however I am not going to lie the clearing the way theory is interesting.

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

My take is that all the Stark hatred she espouses is a lie, and that there is a secret entrance to Winterfell in the crypts.

This makes it very easy to see what Lady D is doing:

She, and the other northern lords, need to open the secret entrance, but the entire castle is covered in new-fallen snow, and the entrance to the crypts is covered in ice and debris. So they come up with this excuse of her looking for Ned's bones as the cover story to accomplish two things: it unblocks the entrance, and it leaves a trail of footprints through the snow back to the castle. This allows someone to enter the castle while also covering their tracks.

It was right after this little visit, after all, that the murders began.

We don't know about a second entrance tho. The crypts have a secret entrance, but, as far as we can tell, it's the only entrance thry have, so the crypts don't function as an entrance to WF.

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21 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

We don't know about a second entrance tho. The crypts have a secret entrance, but, as far as we can tell, it's the only entrance thry have, so the crypts don't function as an entrance to WF.

Actually, we kind-of do know about a second entrance. Griffin's Roost has two escape routes; Storm's End has one; and Arya made use of one when she escaped from the battle where Yoren was killed while helping her flee from King's Landing. And it's not just a fantasy thing; real life castles often have these secret passages. So it's quite likely that Winterfell has one.

The entrance to the crypts was not secret; it was just covered up by the collapse of the First Keep when the castle was burned. Lady Dustin mentions that her men had searched all the dungeons and cellars before she asked Theon about it. So it's entirely possible that her men were actually searching for the secret passage; all that reminiscing about dead Starks was just to cover up her real intention.

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On 29/01/2021 at 2:59 AM, Curled Finger said:

The wedding reminds me a great deal of the circumstances at Harrenhal.  Aerys' reign had begun to crumble.   Rhaegar sought an opportunity to gauge support for some sort of change and Harrenhal was his place.   I can see where Lady D and others would do the same thing at Winterfell.

Hi Curled Finger  :)

I agree, I would also add that it was well known Aerys was extremely paranoid about the tourney at Harrenhal. Such a huge number of lords and nobles congregating in one venue may well raise an eyebrow or two from certain corners. However, a wedding or funeral is slightly different, the gathering of many lords and nobles is expected. 

I think George plays with this a lot. Everyone knows a wedding on page without people dying is a dull affair. (Joke, Red Wedding was awful) but it also gives an author a chance to gather these lords and nobles for a chat. Or to scheme. Mwaahaha.  :cool4:

Hoster Tully's funeral is a good example. The BWB were scheming against the Lannisters with many a river lord on their journeys, with little chance for these lords to discuss plans amongst themselves. I'm sure they would've wanted better circumstances than the death of Hoster, but it was nonetheless a chance for these river lords to confirm loyalties and plans. 

The river lords present were Lord Jonos Bracken, Lord Tytos Blackwood, Lord Karyl Vance, Lord Jason Mallister, Ser Marq Piper, Ser Desmond Grell and Lord Walder Frey's son Lothar. As long as Lothar is kept put the loop, this is a perfect opportunity to chat all things BWB/Riverlands plots and schemes. 

Another good example is Lyonel Corbray's wedding. We know Littlefinger returns from this wedding very pleased with himself at having brokered a deal with Anya Waynwood to marry Sansa off to Harry. I think he releases some financial pressure on House Waynwood as well iirc. Furthermore, us readers know how dodgy ol' scheming Baelish is, it would've been remiss of him not to attempt to bribe some of the other lords of the Vale while there. He needs as much support as he can get. 

The lords declarant and other nobles of the Vale present were Lord Belmore, Lady Waynwood, the Knight of Ninestars, Lord Waxley, Lord Grafton and Lord Lynderly. A fine opportunity indeed for Petyr to blackmail/buy off some of the nobles he desperately needs support from.

On 29/01/2021 at 2:59 AM, Curled Finger said:

While there is no evidence of a single unified theory of rebellion here, there is plenty of evidence of numerous smaller coalitions against the Boltons.   They either collide or aggregate at Winterfell.   

Exactly. Where there is a gathering of these important players there is always something going on. 

I like the idea that Barbrey is lying to Theon, while actually supporting the Stark cause. And for that matter the northern alliance evidenced by Manderly.  :D

On 29/01/2021 at 4:25 PM, John Suburbs said:

She, and the other northern lords, need to open the secret entrance, but the entire castle is covered in new-fallen snow, and the entrance to the crypts is covered in ice and debris. So they come up with this excuse of her looking for Ned's bones as the cover story to accomplish two things: it unblocks the entrance, and it leaves a trail of footprints through the snow back to the castle. This allows someone to enter the castle while also covering their tracks.

It was right after this little visit, after all, that the murders began.

Nice. Not heard this idea before, I like it very much.  :)

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36 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi Curled Finger  :)

I agree, I would also add that it was well known Aerys was extremely paranoid about the tourney at Harrenhal. Such a huge number of lords and nobles congregating in one venue may well raise an eyebrow or two from certain corners. However, a wedding or funeral is slightly different, the gathering of many lords and nobles is expected. 

I think George plays with this a lot. Everyone knows a wedding on page without people dying is a dull affair. (Joke, Red Wedding was awful) but it also gives an author a chance to gather these lords and nobles for a chat. Or to scheme. Mwaahaha.  :cool4:

Hoster Tully's funeral is a good example. The BWB were scheming against the Lannisters with many a river lord on their journeys, with little chance for these lords to discuss plans amongst themselves. I'm sure they would've wanted better circumstances than the death of Hoster, but it was nonetheless a chance for these river lords to confirm loyalties and plans. 

The river lords present were Lord Jonos Bracken, Lord Tytos Blackwood, Lord Karyl Vance, Lord Jason Mallister, Ser Marq Piper, Ser Desmond Grell and Lord Walder Frey's son Lothar. As long as Lothar is kept put the loop, this is a perfect opportunity to chat all things BWB/Riverlands plots and schemes. 

Another good example is Lyonel Corbray's wedding. We know Littlefinger returns from this wedding very pleased with himself at having brokered a deal with Anya Waynwood to marry Sansa off to Harry. I think he releases some financial pressure on House Waynwood as well iirc. Furthermore, us readers know how dodgy ol' scheming Baelish is, it would've been remiss of him not to attempt to bribe some of the other lords of the Vale while there. He needs as much support as he can get. 

The lords declarant and other nobles of the Vale present were Lord Belmore, Lady Waynwood, the Knight of Ninestars, Lord Waxley, Lord Grafton and Lord Lynderly. A fine opportunity indeed for Petyr to blackmail/buy off some of the nobles he desperately needs support from.

Exactly. Where there is a gathering of these important players there is always something going on. 

I like the idea that Barbrey is lying to Theon, while actually supporting the Stark cause. And for that matter the northern alliance evidenced by Manderly.  :D

Nice. Not heard this idea before, I like it very much.  :)

You know, Wizz, I've returned to this topic a couple of times to read the most interesting things and here you come with more yet on the occasion of a wedding itself...and a funeral.  I do wonder for the very first time ever if Little Walder Frey will in fact have a ceremony?  While he is pretty far down the line in succession to Old Walder's legacy, wouldn't it be so fun to see such a thing in the North!  Roose sort of has to give the child some sort of send off, doesn't he?  What are the obligations of a foster parent in this tale?  How many more lords in the shadow of murder and treachery, with the scent of certain Bolton doom and damnation all around them, would top Wyman Manderly's own words of regret at Little Walder's demise?   He would have grow to be a Frey.    Yikes.  Who thinks horrible things like that?  Then again that comment surely sums up the pulse of an entire nation in that moment.  Are we absolutely sure the Freys will even make it to Stannis?  Seems to me that if we are right in guessing the Umbers are on Team Manderly and Wyman was just stabbed in the chins shouldn't we anticipate a quick end to a large number of Freys?   Sort an an extension of what is happening inside Winterfell.   What is all this ruination of Winterfell itself about?  

While Lady Dustin in no way appears to be a dummy, this is a tightrope they all walk at Winterfell.  Roose has publicly pandered to her.   Is it her design to take shelter in the crypts?  Doubtful.  I get the feeling she is far more deeply involved in the Relieve Us of Roose Campaign.  She's got an axe to grind...in Ramsay's head.  She has wisely held men back from all the recent wars. While there is a certain poetry to Ramsay meeting his demise at the mouths of his own hounds, wouldn't it be sweet to see Lady Barbary Dustin put an end to him!   I hope she really does remember.  What will become Barbary Dustin, another character we have only just met in the last book?  

Ah, how they all meet in the most innocuous places to discuss their own games of thrones.   I am no stranger to the idea @John Suburbs mentioned of this passageway though I don't believe I have ever read it so well explained.  Thankee Sai Suburbs.   This is the last thing that brought me back in hopes of more discussion.  There is a freaking battle just outside the doors and these mad Northmen are dying inside the capitol walls of Winterfell.  Sorry, this just really reminded me of a recent thing that occurred here in the States.  Maybe not madness, but flat out anger.  Insane nonetheless.  I sort of understand why Manderly & Frey's men were sent outside, it does seem a bit of a snap decision by Roose.  I've not yet heard an actual battle plan from Lord Bolton--or any Northman.  What do they expect to happen at Winterfell, really?   

Then there is the matter of our mad Riverlands Lord Frey.  He does seem to be concerned about making matches for his enormous progeny and they are dropping like flies.   Would he willingly allow so many of his sons to join battle at this point?   The Riverlands are hardly secure in these no doubt uncomfortable days following the Red Wedding, Lannisters be damned.    It is more of big fat ugly webs over and within each region growing to meet at all the corners.  Ah the intrigue!

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2 hours ago, Aebram said:

Actually, we kind-of do know about a second entrance. Griffin's Roost has two escape routes; Storm's End has one; and Arya made use of one when she escaped from the battle where Yoren was killed while helping her flee from King's Landing. And it's not just a fantasy thing; real life castles often have these secret passages. So it's quite likely that Winterfell has one.

The entrance to the crypts was not secret; it was just covered up by the collapse of the First Keep when the castle was burned. Lady Dustin mentions that her men had searched all the dungeons and cellars before she asked Theon about it. So it's entirely possible that her men were actually searching for the secret passage; all that reminiscing about dead Starks was just to cover up her real intention.

That's not us knowing tho, that's just speculation, it might be so, but it's not a certainty.

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On 1/28/2021 at 8:10 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

All of those happened after she went to the crypts. She saw something there that made her decide whose side she is on and she took the Ryswells with her leaving Roose with only the Freys.

I think Barbrey was part of what was happening inside Winterfell prior to her visit to the crypts. I understands that somehow a lot hinges on the missing swords in the crypts, but Wex didn't know where Bran and Rickon were hiding out. And there is absolutely no mention of swords in the last Davos chapter. But it's mentioned that there are six survivors. So Barbrey could have come to the conclusion on her own that the survivors were hiding out in the crypts and took the missing swords with them. I'm just not sure that her visit to the crypts influenced her decision to join the side of Manderly & Co.

I think Barbrey is as close to a spy in Roose's inner circle that Manderly and the people who are part of this resistance inside Winterfell have. Roose gave her custody of "Arya" when she insists on it because he wants to keep her sweet, otherwise Barbrey will cause problems for him. She tells Theon as much.

So I think there's already something here. Barbrey has no reason to want to take Arya in her charge. She hated her father, allegedly, and she doesn't seem to have been a Catelyn fan. What does she care what happens to their daughter? 

And if the snowmen are a symbolic representation of the resistance inside Winterfell, then Theon sees them before he and Barbrey head down to the crypts. 

And honestly, she has a very good reason to want a Stark restoration. And that is Ramsay. She wouldn't have had a problem with Domeric becoming the Warden of the North because he was her nephew and she loved him. But she hates Ramsay. 

And Ramsay will be the one to take over the north when Roose dies. She hates him and he hates her. And I think she is well aware that Ramsay will destroy Barrowton and kill her once he comes into his titles. He poses a direct threat to her. 

I think that she planted herself firmly on the side that wants a Stark back in Winterfell the second Ramsay was legitimized and became a Bolton. 

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Barbrey was part of what was happening inside Winterfell prior to her visit to the crypts. I know that a lot hinges on the missing swords in the crypts, but Wex didn't know where Bran and Rickon were hiding out. And there is absolutely no mention of swords in the missing chapters. But it's mentioned that there are six survivors. So Barbrey could have come to the conclusion on her own that the survivors were hiding out in the crypts and took the missing swords with them. I'm just not sure that her visit to the crypts influenced her decision to join the side of Manderly & Co.

I think Barbrey is as close to a spy in Roose's inner circle that Manderly and the people who are part of this resistance inside Winterfell have. Roose gave her custody of "Arya" when she insists on it because he wants to keep her sweet, otherwise Barbrey will cause problems for him. She tells Theon as much.

So I think there's already something here. Barbrey has no reason to want to take Arya in her charge. She hated her father, allegedly, and she doesn't seem to have been a Catelyn fan. What does she care what happens to their daughter? 

And if the snowmen are a symbolic representation of the resistance inside Winterfell, then Theon sees them before he and Barbrey head down to the crypts. 

And honestly, she has a very good reason to want a Stark restoration. And that is Ramsay. She wouldn't have had a problem with Domeric becoming the Warden of the North because he was her nephew and she loved him. But she hates Ramsay. 

And Ramsay will be the one to take over the north when Roose dies. She hates him and he hates her. And I think she is well aware that Ramsay will destroy Barrowton and kill her once he comes into his titles. He poses a direct threat to her. 

I think that she planted herself firmly on the side that wants a Stark back in Winterfell the second Ramsay was legitimized and became a Bolton. 

Any sensible person would do the same as Barbrey if they had any inkling of what sort of person Ramsay is. It's astonishing to me that Roose never killed Ramsay, even before Domeric died. He seems to have virtually no power or advantage of his own; he's not particularly smart, or skilled in fighting, his men are all secretly on Roose's dime, and the only thing he seems to know is how to torture people. A beast in human skin, to quote Wyman.

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4 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Any sensible person would do the same as Barbrey if they had any inkling of what sort of person Ramsay is. It's astonishing to me that Roose never killed Ramsay, even before Domeric died. He seems to have virtually no power or advantage of his own; he's not particularly smart, or skilled in fighting, his men are all secretly on Roose's dime, and the only thing he seems to know is how to torture people. A beast in human skin, to quote Wyman.

Agreed. The only thing Ramsay has going for him is that he is fearless because he's a complete psycho. Barbrey and the Ryswells have absolutely no reason to want Ramsay as their overlord. And Domeric was a Ryswell by blood. Bethany wasn't just Barbrey's sister. Those quarrelsome Ryswells were also her brothers. 

Barbrey may hold Ned personally responsible for her husband's death, it doesn't mean that she wants Ramsay to be the boss of her. And if she knows what Ramsay did to Donella Hornwood, then I'm pretty sure she knows about his sport. 

I think Roose never killed Ramsay for two reasons. The first one is the kinslaying business. 

Tell me, my lord . . . if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another? (Reek III, ADwD 32)

For all his nastiness, there seem to be lines even Roose isn't willing to cross.

The second reason, I think, is the extinction of House Bolton. Domeric isn't the only son Roose buried. There are apparently other sons who died in infancy. Domeric's death leaves only Roose and Ramsay and Roose is well aware that Ramsay will murder any other siblings he has. I think he doesn't kill Ramsay to try and preserve House Bolton. 

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