Dany and Irri was pretty disturbing

[Darth Sidious]

On 1/28/2021 at 2:51 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So shoutout to reddit for first bringing it up, but when you think about it, Dany's and Irri's scene on the boat is quite disturbing. I'd say it's for two reasons.

- First, the really tame almost non existent thing, Drogon's and Dany's connection, with Dany being confused as to who is who. That in of itself is not really bothersome, actually seems pretty similar to the connection the Staks have to the direwolves,, especially at night, only a lot smaller, yet keep in mind, this is a connection to WMD's, so I dunno. Personally, I'm not really bothered, but I could see why some could be given the possible long term implications. Anyways, on to the meat of this idea

- Second, and far more disturbing, Irri's weird, not really sure it's there, consent. From the whole feel of the chapter, and how Irri reacts, well she basically acts like a slave doing her duty to the master. There is some consent, but then there's also Dany being her boss/leader/master/whatever so it's weird. And while we can attribute it all to Irri not having shaken off all her habits/reflexes/whatever from when she was a slave, Dany being okay with it, and summoning her later on in Meereen for the same purpose is pretty weird, not gonna lie. Personally I'd put it right up there with Cersei and Taena in the "where the fuck even is this on the consent scale?" category.

So I dunno I was pretty grossed out. How about you? One thing is for sure though, there isn't a single sex scene by GRRM that isn't in some way disturbing or awkward.

Also, guys, pretty please, keep it civil and on topic. Thanks!

There is nothing disgusting about that.  Two young girls experimenting.  

It's not even close to Arya's disturbing scenes in Braavos.  Arya and Bobono, talking nonchalantly about rape.  But then again, Arya is rather nonchalant about murder.  Violence is a lot more disturbing than sex.  

[Alyn Oakenfist]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The Night King was a necrophiliac.  How is a mixed spring/winter romance even in the same league, Bud?

Because the corpses are just that. Corpses. They can't suffer anymore

[SeanF]

On 1/29/2021 at 10:51 AM, Eltharion21 said:

Yes the whole practice is disgusting, are handmaids named because their job is to give handies?

I wonder if people would shrug it off, if they read same about some young girl helping Meria Martell in her old days blowing off some steam and not young, attractive Daenerys.

Just watch movie "The Favorite" for reference.

Lots of people would think mature/young F/F was hot.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Lots of people would think mature/young F/F was hot.

Mate are you making a documentary on Rule 34?

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mate are you making a documentary on Rule 34?

I imagine that Meriah Martell would be termed a MILF or even a GILF, and Irri a hot teen.  So friends tell me, anyway.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, SeanF said:

I imagine that Meriah Martell would be termed a GILF.  So friends tell me, anyway.

We're reaching levels of uncomfortable I didn't think could exist

[Lord Lannister]

Regardless whether it's a Westerosi feudal system or direct slavery, the power disparity between the ruling class and everyone else is there. Without getting a POV from Irri it's unknown whether she was willing or just going through the motions to please Dany because it's expected of her. 

[Joy Hill]

Maybe it’s meant to show the irony : Dany fights slavery while using her own servant as a sex slave.

(Let’s not forget that Dany is a 15 years old girl who was used like a sex toy by Drogo. And Drogo was far kinder to her than Viserys, the brother she was originally meant to marry. It makes sense that she doesn’t reflect on her treatment of Irri.)

[Eltharion21]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

I imagine that Meriah Martell would be termed a MILF or even a GILF, and Irri a hot teen.  So friends tell me, anyway.

I mean if we want to get really deep into the "matter",  she appears more like Jabba the Hut or Kenneth McMillan ( aka Baron Vladimir Harkonnen from Lynch Movie) judging by this picture: 

https://64.media.tumblr.com/75a78b16ad3d7f339e29b5b8138a128f/tumblr_p0wfhu4aq11tikkm9o2_1280.jpg

so it category would be extraterrestrial/alien fetish.

Mostly joking though in bad taste.

 

[Lollygag]

In the US, it's mostly a huge no-no both in professional decorum and by contract to be in a romantic relationship with another employee. Here, if you want to date, you have to hide it or one or both needs to change jobs. For an extreme example why from a woman's point of view, check out On the Record, a documentary on HBO right now. From my personal experience, I can relate all too much.

And as for equating an employee/employer relationship to that of slave/owner...don't do that.

If Irri *truly* had free choice, she could decline all sexual duties based just on her own say-so with no explanations, justifications, reasons or consequences. But while she clearly didn't have the option to choose with whom she slept with and how, she clearly wasn't tortured by it either, at least in any obvious way***.

Everyone's lives in that world are lived that way so it's not as traumatic for those in that world as it would be for us. It's relative. For example, I was spanked as a child. So was everyone else so it was normal and we didn't think anything of it. But now people are told that it's abuse and to spank a child now adds that new weight to the degree it won't be processed the same way as we experienced it. I won't spank any child growing up now because they're growing up in a different context than we did. Speaking from personal experience, how traumatic something is is heavily weighted by what we think is normal and abnormal. On the Record explains this, too.

Taking things into a less touchy context, I'll go to Ned's and Cat's wedding night. They'd just met. Ned might have been physically turned on by Cat, but we know from his personality and strong hints that he was in love with Ashara that he didn't want to sleep with her. Cat wasn't terribly impressed with Ned, a total stranger who paled in comparison with Brandon, so she didn't want to sleep with Ned either. It would be a horrible situation for people in modern times to put two nice stranger kids into a room together, make them get married and get it on after only a few hours. But in their world, it was normal and to some extent, most people then had to deal with that same crap situation, so the trauma wasn't there like it would be for a modern person.

But in a void and free of culture, norms and obligations, would Ned have chosen to sleep with Cat and would Cat have chosen to sleep with Ned on their wedding night? Neither would, so neither was truly free.

 

***On the Record goes into how trauma is often not obvious even to the person themselves. ASOIAF also addresses this through Cersei's anger at being passed off in marriage and Dany's vicious hatred of slavery which even Dany is only beginning to realize comes from trauma of being sold off to Drago even though she came to love him and made the best of it.

[Lollygag]

Or...

Don't mistake resignation to circumstances out of one's control or perceived to be out of one's control with free will.

[dbergkvist]

If I remember correctly, the chain of events was this:
1. Dany accidentally woke Irri up, and Irri had sex with her by her own initiative.
2. At a later date, Irri suggested they should do it again, but Dany said no.
3. At yet another later date, Dany "summoned" Irri, but Irri's kisses "tasted like duty", so Dany stopped their sexual activities.

So the issue seems to be that Dany doesn't get that Irri is sometimes in a sexual mood, and other times not.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

11 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

Dany accidentally woke Irri up, and Irri had sex with her by her own initiative.

Actually Dany was flicking the bean and couldn't get off so Irri steps in to give her a hand.

[dbergkvist]

55 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Actually Dany was flicking the bean and couldn't get off so Irri steps in to give her a hand.

Yes, but she did that on her own initiative. If I was sleeping next to some guy and he woke me up by masturbating, I wouldn't give him a hand.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

If I was sleeping next to some guy and he woke me up by masturbating, I wouldn't give him a hand.

Thanks for putting that image in my head. Couldn't go on with my day without it.

3 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

Yes, but she did that on her own initiative.

True, but as she points out she sees it as her service/duty. It's a testimony of the various ways slavery still scars the freed men and women, and it's a bit messed up that Dany goes along with it despite knowing full well what that is.

Normal handmaidens aren't called that because they give handies.

[dbergkvist]

8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Thanks for putting that image in my head. Couldn't go on with my day without it.

True, but as she points out she sees it as her service/duty. It's a testimony of the various ways slavery still scars the freed men and women, and it's a bit messed up that Dany goes along with it despite knowing full well what that is.

Normal handmaidens aren't called that because they give handies.

If she truly has a slave mentality, she would only do what Dany told her, and not take initiatives like that. Slaves do not benefit in serving their masters beyond what their masters demand. Also, what if Dany had gotten pissed off of Irri's action? From a hypothetical slave-minded Irri's perspective, helping Dany is just a risk with no reward.

[Jaak]

Shae is expressly not a sex slave - she is free to walk away from Tyrion without Tyrion forcibly dragging her back. And has pretty dire reasons not to.

While Tyrion asked about "giant", "my giant of Lannister" was Shae´s initiative. Shae guessed it might please Tyrion.

Is Irri more a slave than Shae?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

5 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Shae is expressly not a sex slave - she is free to walk away from Tyrion without Tyrion forcibly dragging her back. And has pretty dire reasons not to.

While Tyrion asked about "giant", "my giant of Lannister" was Shae´s initiative. Shae guessed it might please Tyrion.

Is Irri more a slave than Shae?

Irri is not hired for her sexual services, and she doesn't get paid anything for them

I'm not sure how you define doing something you don't like for somebody, and not getting paid in any way for it, but to me it smells an awful lot like slavery.

[SeanF]

59 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Thanks for putting that image in my head. Couldn't go on with my day without it.

True, but as she points out she sees it as her service/duty. It's a testimony of the various ways slavery still scars the freed men and women, and it's a bit messed up that Dany goes along with it despite knowing full well what that is.

Normal handmaidens aren't called that because they give handies.

In practice, I expect there would quite a lot of sexual experimentation going on between teenage upper class girls, and ladies in waiting, and handmaidens in this world, certainly in Dorne. 

[Curled Finger]

On 1/29/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sigella said:

Is there actually any sex in this series that isn't morally grey?

Jeyne Westerling maybe drugged Robb.

Yggritte power-played Jon into non-consensual stuff.

Drogo and Dany  . 

Tyrion and one million prostitues/bed slaves + forcing Sansa to undress and exposing himself to her.

Cersei and Jaime.

Arianne heavily manipulating Aerys Oakheart.

Dany and Hizdar, talk of the taste of duty on both parts there.

Sam and Gilly, I know some think this is a beautiful scene from her pov taking back control etc, but for me its a grieving, shit-scared girl with ptsd doing something she might regret.

Cat aching after Ned and thinking not one thought of pleasure but only hoping to be impregnated.

LF and Lysa was a complete honeytrap. Even their fist time he was crying about Cat and Lysa took advantage.

Daario is clearly honeytrapping Dany.

 

I'm glad you made a list.  I've been recalling Pia meeting Jamie.  In her eyes their sex would have been on par with an autograph.  That's very sad.