Daeron the Daring Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 14 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said: Not every girl who invites a singer into her bedroom wants to actually have sex. But she invited him into her bed, according to Dareon. That's why he's either lying or telling the truth, and there is no actual way he unintentionally raped her. Understand already (or ignore it again if you want to). And people only assume that he's lying because he turned out to be an asshole when he got back his own freedom. 16 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said: This argument basically exonerates every frat boy out there who laments about being accused of date rape in his cups. Maybe Dareon is telling the truth. But maybe he isn't. He has every motivation to lie, even and especially to himself. My point is that your argument is not wholly sound here, because it takes Dareon's story at face value. I say we absolutely should not do that. We should hold open the possibility that Dareon is guilty of rape after all. No, you're wrong. He's in Braavos, where he'll have to face no part of his past once Sam leaves. He has no motivation to lie. People are also usually and unintentionally tell the truth when they're drunk (ignore it again if you want to). 21 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said: she killed Dareon because he admitted to abandoning the Night's Watch Yes, she killed Dareon for this without knowing the actual guy and how he ended up where he did. That's why it wasn't fair for her to kill him. 22 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said: It seems rather that you are trying to clear his name in order to make his murder at Arya's hands wrong Not at all. As I said before, I'm totally fine with her "Who to kill next list" and everything else regarding her, except for this. That's why the Kindly Man warns her too: She didn't know the guy!!! And the other thing: Even if Dareon would be a full time bad guy, how would Arya know? Abandoning the NW is not enough to judge someone and sentence him to death. We, readers shouls know it the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia H. Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 About Dareon and Lord Rowan's daughter: He said it wasn't rape. The girl, however, called it rape. Should we automatically assume that her statement must have been a lie just because we hear the story from Dareon? GRRM has played enough tricks on his readers to make us careful when we read a character's subjective account of a story. In any case, even if the girl was willing, Dareon had no business being in a highborn girl's bed. He disregarded a social barrier and harmed Lord Rowan's family. It was an irresponsible action, very likely to end in disaster for one or both of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 12 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said: Dareon is a kind of character that makes you feel sorry for him (for how his life turned out) and makes you hate him too (for abandoning Sam and Maester Aemon). Yet, I don't think it was a fair move from Arya to kill him. He didn't know the guy the way he knew his other victims. All he knew was that Dareon was a Black Brother. He would achieve nothing with changing his backstory and lying about his past. That's why it is likely true. Either way, If I was a honorable Lord, and a singer would rape my daughter, I'd kill him. If a simple peasant singer would've slept with my daughter, I would've given him the chance of taking the black. Lord Rowan probably knew his daughter. Or he was so honorable that he gave the chance of taking the black even for the man who raped his daughter. Either way it is illogical to think Dareon raped that girl. Imagine being a singer at a lord's court, then you suddenly try to rape his daughter. What you're gonna do next? Await for your execution? How do you run away if the girl runs for help instantly? And consider that a Lord can afford to look after you with dogs on horseback. It makes no sense, that's why it wasn't a rape. Dareon wasn't a bad guy unless he abandoned Sam and Aemon. And it wasn't fair for him to be killed by Arya, that's what the Kindly Man said too. Because Arya know nothing about his past (including why he was sent to the Wall). I'm totally fine with every act of Arya, except for this, and I think it's fair. Took the words right out of my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 7 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: What if he plied the girl with wine so that she was drunk when he raped her? What if he played the charming nice guy for a while and used coersion to get her clothes off? If you coerse a person into having sex when they don't really want to have sex, it is still rape. While either of those scenarios are absolutely rape. They likely aren't considered rape in Westerosi culture. If that was the situation, Dareon would be an asshole (at the very least) but he would be 'innocent' and 'wrongly convicted'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 3 hours ago, CamiloRP said: While either of those scenarios are absolutely rape. They likely aren't considered rape in Westerosi culture. If that was the situation, Dareon would be an asshole (at the very least) but he would be 'innocent' and 'wrongly convicted'. Except that he is at the Wall for committing rape. You don't get to pull the "it's Westrosi society" card here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrresistable Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 20 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: No we don't. He claims that it was consensual and Arya has no thirst for blood. I thought it was made pretty clear in the text that Dareon was innocent. Think of the accusation for a second. you really think he's going to go to Lord Rowan's Castle, one of the most powerful Houses in the Reach just to get this miraculous opportunity to go out of his way to rape 1 of his daughters? How the hell would he even get in in the first place? Also, Dareon's been carrying around a lot of bitterness and resentment that this happened to him since book 1. It's just more clear evidence pointing to his innocence. Arya is a killer. Most of the people she has killed deserve death. Dareon forsook his vows, but he didn't deserve what she did to him here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrresistable Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 16 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Also there's a whole parallel with Marilion and stuff. not every pretty boy is a rapist my dude. Martin has already set the groundwork for too many "pretty boys" being scum and or monsters throughout his story. 11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: We do not "all agree," nor do we all even accept the premise of your argument. Who knows what really happened with Lord Rowan's daughter? this Arya cope is insane. Sounds like you want to believe Dareon is a rapist because it casts a main character you like in a more positive light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muffin King Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 I'm certain Dareon was innocent and the girl later claimed it was rape to try to protect her honor. If it was rape, why did Rowan not just execute him? I think Lord Rowan himself knew what was going on, and didn't want to kill an innocent man. Dareon is right to be bitter, and it's just one more step in the wrong direction for Arya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrresistable Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 13 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: And he broke his Night's Watch vows, the penalty of which is execution. How is Arya doing any different than any other Westerosi would have done? Why the double standard? The penalty for starving on the street and stealing bread so you or your family don't end up dying is having your hand cut off. Such Magnificent Justice. i'm pretty sure those are the types of laws that Lord Tarly was imposing among others in Maidenpool, trying to strangle the Riverlanders into submission. Hundred's of characters throughout our story (incl Fire & Blood) forswear their vows. Viserys I had many Lord's swear vows to defend Rhaenyra's claim. Time past, while some Lord's may have died, once the Green's successfully crowned Aegon II & stopped news getting to Dragonstone by scheming & keeping Visery's death a secret, the Hightower Targaryens were seen as too powerful to oppose. Subsequently, a lot of Lord's didn't take up Rhaenyra's cause. I'm pretty sure it's made clear in the text that some never planned to uphold to their vows "because she is a woman". So this would be the crux of it. Did all those Lord's deserve execution? Surely betraying your Monarch would be the highest of treason? Yet i'm pretty sure most of them were offered pardons. Many would've been cowed by the power of the Hightowers, and before Rhaenyra got control of the Wild Dragons on Dragonstone, the War looked to be pretty much over and a difinitive lost cause. Is a Lord's vow worth the destruction of his House, the death of his family, the raping & pillaging of his smallfolk? Yes, Dareon's reasons for not upholding his are far more selfish, and not at all "noble". i'm not going to dispute that. yet i'm sure Dareon never really held true to his vows. Especially once he had an opportunity to escape them and live a good life. It would be easy to justify for him, and it was. Because he was innocent and should never have been sent to The Wall in the first place. That was his justification for abandoning the Watch & Sam. Dareon's death was meant to be a bit sad, as we the reader know about Dareon, and Arya only knows that he's a NW deserter and that her father & House Stark have always executed NW deserters (& that he treated Sam badly?). As someone pointed out earlier, even the Kindly Man says honestly, it was wrong of her to kill him. Maybe he had heard Dareon's story from the working girl's in the brothels. last thing i'd mention is i'm not sure if Westerosi laws / "vows" hold too much sway in Braavos. The authorities there don't seem to have the inclination to cart him away to the cells because he was a Forsworn Black Brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 I don't think the author is expecting us to approve of Arya's action, here. Daeron was a bit of a shit (even if he is the victim of a miscarriage of justice, he's leaving his comrades in the lurch), but Arya really doesn't have the justification to kill him. Daeron is not a vile man like Raff the Sweetling, the Tickler, et al, who grossly wronged her and her friends; nor is this a case of self-defence, like killing the guard at Harrenhall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissM Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 22 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Arya is emotionally disabled and mentally unstable. It's Dareon's bad luck to run into her. Your signature... "Cheerleader for Dany's team" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedBear Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 I wouldn’t say it’s fair what Arya did, but I didn’t care about his death, if the rape didn’t happen, that’s another question, it has little to do with Arya, but he took the oath and was a member of the NW, he knows about the others, he knows that on the wall they needs help and he still ran away, Sam is a guy who certainly didn’t do anything wrong to be on the wall, but still he doesn’t try to escape of his responsibility now, Arya may not be in her right mind, but he will not be missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltharion21 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 20 hours ago, Darksnider05 said: Did Arya killing him have anything to do with rape, or him trying to escape the Nights watch? If he was trying to escape nothing else needs to be said beyond you disagreeing with her authority to carry out that sentence. If he was falsely accused of rape and forced to take Oath to Night's Watch than Arya killing is unjust, besides being unnecessarily cruel which it certainly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 1. Even if it was consensual (and I am not convinced) it was not wise and probably illegal too to try with lord's daughter (it is Westeros, not Brussels 2021) 2. Arya did what her father or brothers would have done, executed a deserter from the NW, not just a deserter, but real piece of scum. I honor her for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 5 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: Except that he is at the Wall for committing rape. You don't get to pull the "it's Westrosi society" card here. Yes, I do, because he could be at the Wall for committing rape, or he could be there just because he had sex with a Lord's daughter and was unjustly punished because of it. But, in Westeros society intoxicating someone in order to have sex, or coerting them into having sex aren't rape. So, if that was the case, he was unjustly punished for something he didn't do, in his view and in the view of Westerosi society, but not our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 45 minutes ago, broken one said: 1. Even if it was consensual (and I am not convinced) it was not wise and probably illegal too to try with lord's daughter (it is Westeros, not Brussels 2021) 2. Arya did what her father or brothers would have done, executed a deserter from the NW, not just a deserter, but real piece of scum. I honor her for that Do you think it's right tho? Killing a person just because they left a job they hate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen 747 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 On 1/31/2021 at 5:51 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said: Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black. But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice. The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove. And the second injustice came from Arya Stark. Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos. Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. Victim is putting it mildly. The only way for a person of non-noble birth to have justice is to force the nobles to sign some kind of Magna Carta. Arya compounded the injustice by killing Dareon. Arya is seriously messed up. I look forward to the day when she meets her own end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: Do you think it's right tho? Killing a person just because they left a job they hate? I think it is not just "a job". From time to time I try to look at the world through the eyes of its inhabitants, not my own. More personally I strongly despise the character for the style of his desertion, not the desertion itself. He could have helped much easily and it would make him look 90% better. But he just remained indifferent. And I do not think the fact he "hated the job" justifies it, there are things one should do, have the decency, no matter if it's ones interest or if there's a profit. And last but not least, it is just a fiction, so can I read about sb being killed, drink coffee and think "very good, you deserved it cause you hated the job, ha ha". The controversial arguments like the one from the OP only provoke me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, broken one said: I think it is not just "a job". From time to time I try to look at the world through the eyes of its inhabitants, not my own. More personally I strongly despise the character for the style of his desertion, not the desertion itself. He could have helped much easily and it would make him look 90% better. But he just remained indifferent. And I do not think the fact he "hated the job" justifies it, there are things one should do, have the decency, no matter if it's ones interest or if there's a profit. And last but not least, it is just a fiction, so can I read about sb being killed, drink coffee and think "very good, you deserved it cause you hated the job, ha ha". The controversial arguments like the one from the OP only provoke me Well, yes, the person who wrote the OP unreasonably hates the Starks and will say anything to make them sound like absolute monsters. And yes, Dareon was an asshole. But Arya didn't know that. She just killed him for abandoning the watch. But why tho? Isn't the Watch in the same position with Dareon dead as it would be with Dareon alive but being a desserter? So, what is she doing in the end? Just punishing a dude? Who is she to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 The writer of the OP was clearly a Stark (or at least Arya) hater. That does not change the fact that most people find the case of Dareon unjust. Neither did I gave a damn about Dareon, to be honest, but it wasn't right to kill him, and that's it. It's just hilarious how some people are unable to accept that their favourite characters have flaws too. And this applies on both sides, tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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