Dareon was a victim of Arya's brand of "justice"

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

It is possible though, because Marillion has done it (or would have done if not dragged off by Brune).

The parallels are freakishly strong, when you start looking at them - singers, young and handsome, with an amazing voice; sexually assertive/aggressive; also vain, greedy and lacking empathy. (A lot of grrm's singers are something like this...)

The parallel on the girls' side is the lordly father. Alayne's bastard status is less relevant than the fact her 'father' has boosted her to the top of society (many or most acknowledged bastards are more or less treated equally to the trueborn; but the point here is that her lord father loves her).

Marillion's case is interesting, because, had he managed to force himself on Alayne, would he have seen it as rape? I don't think so. His spoken thoughts are all like, are you wet for me already? you want me as much as I want you. you've got a lustful nature because you're a bastard... He's thinking with his dick, basically, not even registering her rejection. It is at least possible Dareon did the same.

Marillion is a completely different case as he is the favorite (and perhaps even the lover) of Lady Lysa Arryn when he makes his move. He acts from a position of privilege, believing himself to be untouchable. He really has no clue how much Lysa is into Littlefinger ... and he is not very smart.

There is no indication that Dareon had a similar position at Goldengrove.

There is also the difference between the natural daughter of a minor lordling (Sansa as Alayne Stone) and the highborn daughter of a great lord like Rowan living in her father's castle.

Marillion quickly learned that Littlefinger's daughter was under protection ... whereas it would have never been in question that Rowan's daughter was not available for common singers. Unless the woman involved was inclined to arrange clandestine meetings.

The invasion of the bedchamber of Lord Rowan's daughter is not something a person like Dareon could pull. The parallel for something like that would be Criston Cole or Sandor Clegane hitting on Rhaenyra/Sansa - meaning a powerful warrior/retainer in permanent service of a lord abusing the trust that's put in him. But that, too, would be a risky game. It is not something a common nobody could pull off easily - nor would he, unless he was psychopathic serial rapist. Again, he would have to be prepared to murder the girl if she was not willing to have sex with him. One cry of the girl could bring guards in the room.

After all, if you are a man you can abuse and rape women very easily in Westeros. Dareon could find willing (and not-so-willing) wenches in every inn his is singing in. He doesn't need to target a highborn girl.

And what we can about his personality is that Dareon likes to shine, likes the attention of women, but wouldn't exactly make himself a target by abusing a woman of high birth.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Marillion is a completely different case as he is the favorite (and perhaps even the lover) of Lady Lysa Arryn when he makes his move. He acts from a position of privilege, believing himself to be untouchable. He really has no clue how much Lysa is into Littlefinger ... and he is not very smart.

Oh he does, everyone at that wedding knows how much Lysa is into Littlefinger. I can tell it's been a while since you read that particular chapter.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that Dareon had a similar position at Goldengrove.

No. Though all singers have a certain social mobility.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There is also the difference between the natural daughter of a minor lordling (Sansa as Alayne Stone) and the highborn daughter of a great lord like Rowan living in her father's castle.

Not at all. LF is lord of Harrenhal and the Riverlands. Even before that comes into effect, we know that Lysa had many suitors who expected to rule the Vale as her husband. Marillion has been there long enough to learn that.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Marillion quickly learned that Littlefinger's daughter was under protection ... whereas it would have never been in question that Rowan's daughter was not available for common singers. Unless the woman involved was inclined to arrange clandestine meetings.

Fathers are notoriously protective of daughters.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The invasion of the bedchamber of Lord Rowan's daughter is not something a person like Dareon could pull. The parallel for something like that would be Criston Cole or Sandor Clegane hitting on Rhaenyra/Sansa - meaning a powerful warrior/retainer in permanent service of a lord abusing the trust that's put in him. But that, too, would be a risky game. It is not something a common nobody could pull off easily - nor would he, unless he was psychopathic serial rapist. Again, he would have to be prepared to murder the girl if she was not willing to have sex with him. One cry of the girl could bring guards in the room.

But if she wanted a taste of romance, but not full-on deflowering? She might have let him in, and lost control of the situation. She might blame herself.

Obviously we don't know. But we can't rule these alternative scenarios out.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, if you are a man you can abuse and rape women very easily in Westeros. Dareon could find willing (and not-so-willing) wenches in every inn his is singing in. He doesn't need to target a highborn girl.

1. This highborn girl is sweet on him (we assume, if she let him in). Could he turn down the opportunity?
2. If she is unwilling and he rapes her, he could do as rapists often do, and threaten to tell the world she was willing. That could stop her speaking out at all.
3. I suggested above that M is vain enough to believe Alayne wanted him. Or would want him by the time he finished. I also pointed that M and D are very similar in character.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And what we can about his personality is that Dareon likes to shine, likes the attention of women, but wouldn't exactly make himself a target by abusing a woman of high birth.

He might not see it as abuse, no more than Marillion did. He'd probably think she was lucky to have him.

[Daeron the Daring]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But if she wanted a taste of romance, but not full-on deflowering? She might have let him in, and lost control of the situation. She might blame herself.

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Fair? The girl was waiting for me, naked as the day she was born. She pulled me through the window, and you talk to me of fair?

How can this scenario be misunderstood by Dareon? This, again, shows how you know nothing more than what was wrote down here (and not even that, tho, this was quoted several times by now).

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

How can this scenario be misunderstood by Dareon? This, again, shows how you know nothing more than what was wrote down here (and not even that, tho, this was quoted several times by now).

My bad, thanks for the correction.

But rapists lie, you know? The girl said it was a lie (implied in the rape accusation). Who do you believe?

I'm not a fan of breadcrumbing, at least not when the trail is roughly one breadcrumb long. If a scenario is ambiguous, we should say it is ambiguous; it makes no sense to believe one side or the other on a fragment of evidence.

I'm saying the rape version of events is possible on the plain facts we have; Dareon's character makes it a bit more likely; and analogy with Marillion makes it a bit more likely still (it's a quirk of grrm to makes parallels on characters).

So take your pick, but the best answer is we don't know.

[Son of Man]

On 1/31/2021 at 5:51 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

The Starks do not have the authority in Braavos.  Arya knew it and she still killed him.  It was very personal.  She did it because Dareon was disrespecting Jon Snow, whom she has deep affection and love for.  (Jon is her future mate).  Dareon pissed her off and she killed him.  It was wrong, but she could and she did.  Arya is a foreigner who committed the crime of murder in a foreign land.  The authorities in Braavos would have her executed if she was caught. 

[Son of Man]

15 hours ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

There are still 2 books left to we see Arya's sadistic side more explicitly. Even more now that she has the skills that can help her to supply her vicious needs for violence

She made her choice to move to the darkness. 

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

There are still 2 books left to we see Arya's sadistic side more explicitly. Even more now that she has the skills that can help her to supply her vicious needs for violence

 

15 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I love English too

This is getting repetitive, but can you prove it? She has a need for vengeance/justice that much is clear, but where did you get "her vicious need for violence"? Or her "sadism" for that matter.

Arya is not a sadist. 

That is one thing the show got very wrong.

[Eltharion21]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

My bad, thanks for the correction.

But rapists lie, you know? The girl said it was a lie (implied in the rape accusation). Who do you believe?

I'm not a fan of breadcrumbing, at least not when the trail is roughly one breadcrumb long. If a scenario is ambiguous, we should say it is ambiguous; it makes no sense to believe one side or the other on a fragment of evidence.

I'm saying the rape version of events is possible on the plain facts we have; Dareon's character makes it a bit more likely; and analogy with Marillion makes it a bit more likely still (it's a quirk of grrm to makes parallels on characters).

So take your pick, but the best answer is we don't know.

You took entire Marilion case as false analogy argument - "since both are male, handsome, singers than both are certainly rapists."

If you take Marillion as carbon copy of Daeron , why don't you add that Marillion was also falsely accused and sentenced for murder of Lysa Arryn?

[Julia H.]

On 2/2/2021 at 10:57 PM, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps the Faceless Men, who took Arya in and offered her to pursue any kind of career in Braavos she could possibly want? If there is a crime going on she can report it to them and they could report it to the authorities.

Perhaps she could. I'm not sure Arya knows it though. She doesn't seem to be instructed in citizens' rights and duties. Besides, I kind of doubt that authorities in Braavos would be interested in NW deserters. If you reported a dangerous Westerosi criminal likely to stir up trouble in Braavos, perhaps. If you reported a slave merchant intent on capturing and selling Braavosi citizents, very probably. But a young man who is having fun instead of doing the duties his Westerosi boss entrusted to him? I doubt it, and I doubt it even more that Arya has the necessary insight into the legal system in Braavos. In addition, I'm not sure how the FM and Braavosi authorities relate to each other. Are the FM a completely legal organization in Braavos? On the one hand, they are servants of a certain god, on the other hand, they are still assassins.

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That is just a silly defense. It is like saying the child of a judge or policeman who is himself/herself not a judge or policeman can and should act as if he or she were a judge or policeman. But that kind of thing makes him/her a criminal guilty of vigilantism.

Maybe, but this is what Eddard told to Bran, who was a child at the time. It may or may not have got round to Arya at the time. She was also a child then. What I was trying to point out is that even though Dareon is not a dangerous person, Arya, from what she knows, might have a reason to connect a deserter with the image of a dangerous criminal - not necessarily, just might. Regardless of what we, readers may know and understand of the larger context, it is worth trying to look at these events from Arya's viewpoint. 

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And a deserter of the NW is definitely not a dangerous man in the Free City of Braavos were people, rightfully, don't give a damn about Westerosi laws and customs and vows.

That's kind of what I said above, on reporting Dareon to Braavosi authorities. 

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Eddard Stark would have never murdered Dareon had he chanced on him in Braavos. And he would be horrified by the thought that his daughter could devolve to the level of murdering people on the street. 

I agree.

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It would disgust him, and rightfully so. Because, you know, Arya Stark definitely takes joy in killing people. You can see that in Mercy chapter. Just as she took joy in not killing Sandor when she felt this was even more horrible a punishment than killing him.

I think it would make Ned sad and horrified and he would want to kill the people who did this to his daughter. As for Arya feeling joy... she feels the satisfaction of revenge, not joy at killing. That is made clear by the incident with Sandor you mentioned. If she enjoyed people's death, she would have killed him. Instead, she finds satisfaction in revenge, and when revenge means letting the man live, she does not kill him. 

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And to be sure - picking on Dareon is just sick. Sam also sort of deserted by wasting his money on a dying man and putting himself in a position where he could no longer catch a ship to Oldtown. He is supposed to become a maester as quickly as possible and then return to Castle Black. His mission was not to sacrifice everything he had to stop a very old man from dying.

That's not desertion. Aemon was also in his care, and he had no instructions on what to do if Aemon was dying, so he had to make his own decision. It happens when you are on a job and cannot contact your superior. 

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Dareon could have come around to accompany Sam to Oldtown eventually ... but Arya took that possibility away from him when she murdered him.

Well, that's what Gandalf would say, and that's the case with all death sentences in this world and the real one, and one of the reasons why so many people oppose the death penalty. Arya, however, was not educated in this sort of culture and philosophy. It is easy to judge her from the moral viewpoint of a society where we can be sure of a legal system protecting citizens and punishing criminals. Even in a peaceful Westeros, most people's best idea of a second chance is sending criminals to the Wall. 

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Vice versa, a Samwell losing all hope to ever leave Braavos could have also ended up in a Dareon-like position where he had to take on jobs to provide for him and Gilly and the child. Had he done that, Arya could have easily enough murdered him, too.

No. Dareon was not taking on jobs to provide for anyone but himself. Arya isn't stupid - she has travelled with Yoren and she knows that just because a black brother is away from the Wall, it does not mean he is a deserter, and she also has first-hand experience of how difficult it can be to go back sometimes. Dareon, however, made no secret of his desertion:

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"I'll go," said Sam, "but you'll come with me."

"No. I'm done with you. I'm done with black." Dareon tore his cloak off his naked bride and tossed it in Sam's face. "Here. Throw that rag on the old man, it may keep him a little warmer. I shan't be needing it. I'll be clad in velvet soon. Next year I'll be wearing furs and eating—"

Sam hit him.

 

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It made her angry to see Dareon sitting there so brazen, making eyes at Lanna as his fingers danced across the harp strings. The whores called him the black singer, but there was hardly any black about him now. With the coin his singing brought him, the crow had transformed himself into a peacock. Today he wore a plush purple cloak lined with vair, a striped white-and-lilac tunic, and the parti-colored breeches of a bravo, but he owned a silken cloak as well, and one made of burgundy velvet that was lined with cloth-of-gold. The only black about him was his boots. Cat had heard him tell Lanna that he'd thrown all the rest in a canal. "I am done with darkness," he had announced.

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. And the singer should be on the Wall. When Dareon had first appeared at the Happy Port, Arya had almost asked if he would take her with him back to Eastwatch, until she heard him telling Bethany that he was never going back. "Hard beds, salt cod, and endless watches, that's the Wall," he'd said. "Besides, there's no one half as pretty as you at Eastwatch. How could I ever leave you?" He had said the same thing to Lanna, Cat had heard, and to one of the whores at the Cattery, and even to the Nightingale the night he played at the House of Seven Lamps.

 

Arya knows Dareon is a deserter, not just some watchman who got stuck in Braavos, and that is, again, because of Dareon's stupidity. 

All in all, I think Arya's experience with Yoren may be just as important here as her father's code or the fact that Jon Snow is the Lord Commander. Yoren saved her life and wanted to take her home and he looked after the would-be watchmen in his charge, protecting them when necessary; yet, Yoren died on the way, killed by Westerosi soldiers. She assessed Dareon because she had hoped to find another Yoren in him, and Dareon made no secret of his desertion or the fact that he was abandoning his fellow-watchmen for personal gain.

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It is completely irrelevant that Dareon deserted. Westeros and the world have much more important problems than that.

Arya might say she agrees and that's why she took this small, unimportant matter into her own small hands. 

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

You took entire Marilion case as false analogy argument - "since both are male, handsome, singers than both are certainly rapists."

That's exactly what I'm not saying. GRRM has created two characters that are very, very similar in a lot of respects. Most authors try to avoid doing this, but GRRM is happy to - you could call it laziness, or you could accept it as something he wants, and play around with the idea.

At the very least - it is totally sound to conclude that Dareon might not be innocent as he claims, and Marillion's story is a cue to that thought.

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

If you take Marillion as carbon copy of Daeron ,

Not a carbon copy - variations on a theme. Tom o' Sevens is another one - a serial seducer, singing girls out of their smallclothes, no suggestion of rape. Although those pregnant girls would likely pay for their night of passion with a harder life as a single mother - Tom mostly is off the scene. It looks like selfish, exploitative sex, but as ever, we don't know the detail.

I'm going to throw Rhaegar into the pot too - his seduction of Lyanna began with a song, but was it true romance all the way? For her?

Love is poison, says Cersei, and there is something in what she says. In the books.

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

why don't you add that Marillion was also falsely accused and sentenced for murder of Lysa Arryn?

If you like. It does the job of raising doubts, which is a good thing.

Although, a false accusation is external to the character, so it's pushing the parallel a bit further. Character is destiny, sort of thing.

[Julia H.]

On 2/3/2021 at 11:03 AM, lrresistable said:

Dareon is described as a pretty boy. Aemon Targaryen, probably the most objective mind we can get on a matter, has high praise for his singing voice. Alliser Thorne even calls him 'lover boy' , either being sarcastic or implying he shouldn't even be at The Wall at all.

I believe he was handsome and had a beautiful voice. I was merely pointing out the facts that, on the one hand, in the case of Rhaegar we have actual information of how his singing affected Lyanna, and, on the other hand, that Rhaegar had attractions even beyond extremely good looks and good singing. The fact that people found Dareon handsome and a good singer does not prove that any particular girl would be willing to take him into her bed any more than that Dareon could be conceited enough to think that any particular girl would be ready to take him into her bed simply because that was what girls usually did.

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Adding to that comment, Thorne shouldn't have been at The Wall either. He was sent there by Tywin after the Sack of King's Landing for being a Targaryen loyalist. Both there for unjust reasons, and it sounds like Thorne catches this?

I don't see that Thorne feels sympathy for anyone else but himself for being sent to the Wall unjustly. As one of the high officers of the NW, he probably knows that Sam did not commit any crimes to get to the Wall, and yet, he is simply cruel towards him. He is likewise likely to know Dareon's story - the official one at least. Whether he has heard Dareon's version, we don't know. It's not like Thorne sat down to talk to him.  

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He is an advocate of change by deed, therefore embodying the essence of changing the status-quo. He is actively fighting for the rights of the smallfolk by having sex with highborns. albeit not for noble reasons, obviously.

Sorry, no, not more than any highway man who kidnaps and rapes higborn girls until he gets caught and hanged. Getting into the bed of a highborn girl, be it rape or seduction, will bring about changes only in her life and possibly in the boy's life. Look at what happened to Lysa Tully. She was forced to go through a painful and traumatic abortion, which nearly cost her her life, then she was quickly married off to an old man and afterwards she had several miscarriages and stillbirths before she was finally able to give birth to a living son, all this turning her into a bitter and cruel person. Another example is Tyrion's first wife. When two people like Dareon and Lord Rowan's daughter have sex together in Westeros, they will normally try to keep it secret. If they are lucky, it will remain a secret, and, again, no social change will result from it. 

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2 people are allowed to have sex. He doesn't need to marry her or go off and elope with her for the sake of optics. 

Not in Westeros, not like that. If they do, they had better be aware of the possible consequences. If they are lucky, no one will find out, and there will be no consequences. If it is made known, one or both may well suffer from it. Dareon lives in Westeros. He should have known what he was risking. By the way, attempting elopement would also be very dangerous, but, if they wanted to live their whole life together (married or not), at least they would take the risk for a worthier cause than an hour's  fun. 

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Also, how do you know he isn't an advocate of social change or progress? He's constantly lamenting about being at The Wall for something he didn't do. He's sounds totally disaffected by how things are run in Westeros.

How do I know? Somehow I expect that a person who is an advocate of social change and progress will be interested in other people as well, besides himself. Jon Snow becomes an advocate of social change and progress when he makes decisions that influence the whole of the wildling society, when he tries to integrate them into Westeros by integrating many of them into the NW and by arranging a marriage between a Westerosi heiress and a man of the Free Folk, when he accepts women into the NW and so on. Dany is an advocate of social change and progress when she fights against slavery. Dareon, however, only ever thinks of one single person - himself. That's how the writer wrote him.  

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Agree 100% on all of the above here. This is probably why our author masterminded Dareon's killing by the hand of Arya. Not only his desertion, his abandonment of Sam & Aemon who needed him, but because of how he chose to live his life after that too.

When we see Dareon again in Arya's POV he's wearing the most expensive clothes imaginable, is living a very hedonistic care-free lifestyle, is bragging about how he'll being singing in the Sealord's Palace and shows no remorse about leaving & doesn't seem to mention the threat of the Others, or make any attempt to help his former Brothers at The Wall.

Yes, I think it is a deliberate contrast with many characters who choose duty. Our author likes to play with choices, and he gives us a wide range of responses to a given situation in life exemplified by different characters. Dareon is the one who never accepts his responsibility - neither for what he did, nor for the job entrusted to him. In Arya's perception, Dareon and Yoren, two travelling black brothers, must be total opposites of each other. 

[Darksnider05]

On 2/2/2021 at 4:57 PM, Lord Varys said:

Dareon had he chanced on him in Braavos. And he would be horrified by the thought that his daughter could devolve to the level of murdering people on the street. It would disgust him, and rightfully so. Because, you know, Arya Stark definitely takes joy in killing people. You can see that in Mercy chapter. Just as she took joy in not killing Sandor when she felt this was even more horrible a punishment than killing him.

Pretty sure Eddard would of taken Dareon back with him and killed him all the same.  Honestly where do you get the idea that Eddard is bound by borders or that Braavos would risk offending Eddard to save Dareon.  

Just like he'd kill Jorah the explorer had he ever laid eyes on him again and had the power to do so. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Darksnider05 said:

Pretty sure Eddard would of taken Dareon back with him and killed him all the same.  Honestly where do you get the idea that Eddard is bound by borders or that Braavos would risk offending Eddard to save Dareon.  

Just like he'd kill Jorah the explorer had he ever laid eyes on him again and had the power to do so. 

I'm not sure. For one, something like that would certainly break the law of the land. For two, Ned always executed people, in the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, however you cannot really do that when you are not in Robert of the House Baratheon's lands.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Perhaps she could. I'm not sure Arya knows it though. She doesn't seem to be instructed in citizens' rights and duties. Besides, I kind of doubt that authorities in Braavos would be interested in NW deserters. If you reported a dangerous Westerosi criminal likely to stir up trouble in Braavos, perhaps. If you reported a slave merchant intent on capturing and selling Braavosi citizents, very probably. But a young man who is having fun instead of doing the duties his Westerosi boss entrusted to him? I doubt it, and I doubt it even more that Arya has the necessary insight into the legal system in Braavos. In addition, I'm not sure how the FM and Braavosi authorities relate to each other. Are the FM a completely legal organization in Braavos? On the one hand, they are servants of a certain god, on the other hand, they are still assassins.

Maybe, but this is what Eddard told to Bran, who was a child at the time. It may or may not have got round to Arya at the time. She was also a child then. What I was trying to point out is that even though Dareon is not a dangerous person, Arya, from what she knows, might have a reason to connect a deserter with the image of a dangerous criminal - not necessarily, just might. Regardless of what we, readers may know and understand of the larger context, it is worth trying to look at these events from Arya's viewpoint. 

That's kind of what I said above, on reporting Dareon to Braavosi authorities. 

I agree.

I think it would make Ned sad and horrified and he would want to kill the people who did this to his daughter. As for Arya feeling joy... she feels the satisfaction of revenge, not joy at killing. That is made clear by the incident with Sandor you mentioned. If she enjoyed people's death, she would have killed him. Instead, she finds satisfaction in revenge, and when revenge means letting the man live, she does not kill him. 

That's not desertion. Aemon was also in his care, and he had no instructions on what to do if Aemon was dying, so he had to make his own decision. It happens when you are on a job and cannot contact your superior. 

Well, that's what Gandalf would say, and that's the case with all death sentences in this world and the real one, and one of the reasons why so many people oppose the death penalty. Arya, however, was not educated in this sort of culture and philosophy. It is easy to judge her from the moral viewpoint of a society where we can be sure of a legal system protecting citizens and punishing criminals. Even in a peaceful Westeros, most people's best idea of a second chance is sending criminals to the Wall. 

No. Dareon was not taking on jobs to provide for anyone but himself. Arya isn't stupid - she has travelled with Yoren and she knows that just because a black brother is away from the Wall, it does not mean he is a deserter, and she also has first-hand experience of how difficult it can be to go back sometimes. Dareon, however, made no secret of his desertion:

 

Arya knows Dareon is a deserter, not just some watchman who got stuck in Braavos, and that is, again, because of Dareon's stupidity. 

All in all, I think Arya's experience with Yoren may be just as important here as his father's code or the fact that Jon Snow is the Lord Commander. Yoren saved her life and wanted to take her home and he looked after the would-be watchmen in his charge, protecting them when necessary; yet, Yoren died on the way, killed by Westerosi soldiers. She assessed Dareon because she had hoped to find another Yoren in him, and Dareon made no secret of his desertion or the fact that he was abandoning his fellow-watchmen for personal gain.

Arya might say she agrees and that's why she took this small, unimportant matter into her own small hands. 

That’s well-argued.  I can’t say Arya was right to kill Daeron.  I do say it is understandable.  And, it’s the likes of Cersei, Ser Gregor, Roose Bolton, Walder Frey, Vargo Hoat, who drove Arya into the position where she thinks that killing is appropriate.

[Lord Varys]

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Oh he does, everyone at that wedding knows how much Lysa is into Littlefinger. I can tell it's been a while since you read that particular chapter.

Oh, I don't recall if he hit on Sansa before or after that ... but, again, he wouldn't necessarily have grasped how much of a hold Littlefinger would have over Lysa. Littlefinger is a new guy coming in and people of a household do not necessarily have an accurate picture what there being a new husband means for the other people.

And Marillion remained Lysa's favorite until her death ... and she was still running things effectively until Littlefinger killed her.

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

No. Though all singers have a certain social mobility.

Sure, but Dareon was a rather young and stupid chap.

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Not at all. LF is lord of Harrenhal and the Riverlands. Even before that comes into effect, we know that Lysa had many suitors who expected to rule the Vale as her husband. Marillion has been there long enough to learn that.

Alayne is a bastard child, not a highborn girl. That's a difference. And Littlefinger is the Lord of Sheepshit, and that's the place where they marry. He may also be the titular lord of Harrenhal and the Trident, but those are just titles.

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Fathers are notoriously protective of daughters.

Which we then see with Sansa, too. And Marillion backs down when he realizes this. He may not have wanted to dishonor but rather seduce the girl. That is a difference.

Rape is something that's defined by the men in Sansa's life - or by Lord Rowan in case of his daughter. If they wanted to pimp her out - like Shae's father did with her or various men did with some of the Unworthy's mistresses - then this isn't rape.

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But if she wanted a taste of romance, but not full-on deflowering? She might have let him in, and lost control of the situation. She might blame herself.

Oh, well, that's far to modern in Westeros. A highborn girl inviting a man in her bedchamber is a slut by definition. She cannot be raped then. Concept like 'consent', 'marital rape', etc. are completely unknown in Westeros. Rape is more or less definined as men having sex with women who are under the protection of other men who do not approve of them having sex with those men.

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Obviously we don't know. But we can't rule these alternative scenarios out.

1. This highborn girl is sweet on him (we assume, if she let him in). Could he turn down the opportunity?

Of course he could, he came to her, he could have just not shown up.

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

1. If she is unwilling and he rapes her, he could do as rapists often do, and threaten to tell the world she was willing. That could stop her speaking out at all.

Not with the kind of power dynamic that's going on there. She is a Rowan of Goldengrove and Dareon is no one. A word from her could destroy him. And, it seems, it did. He was sent to the Wall because of what she said.

A man of power - like a sworn shield - could abuse and rape a girl/woman in his charge in the manner you suggest (also an uncle, father, brother, or other important man at the castle with access to the woman in question), but not somebody who isn't in a position of power and authority.

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

1. I suggested above that M is vain enough to believe Alayne wanted him. Or would want him by the time he finished. I also pointed that M and D are very similar in character.

The difference is that Marillion is in a position of power and privilege at the Arryn court. Dareon was not.

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

He might not see it as abuse, no more than Marillion did. He'd probably think she was lucky to have him.

He would only think that if there had been flirting going on, followed by an invitation. Pretty much nobody would climb into the bedchamber of a highborn girl without expecting to find her willing there. I mean, would you consider doing that, not knowing who and what you would find in there? Perhaps the girl isn't there, perhaps she isn't alone, etc. The idea that Dareon went in there without any kind of invitation is very unlikely.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Darksnider05 said:

Pretty sure Eddard would of taken Dareon back with him and killed him all the same.  Honestly where do you get the idea that Eddard is bound by borders or that Braavos would risk offending Eddard to save Dareon.  

Just like he'd kill Jorah the explorer had he ever laid eyes on him again and had the power to do so. 

He wouldn't have had the power to do so ... nor the right to do so.

4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Perhaps she could. I'm not sure Arya knows it though. She doesn't seem to be instructed in citizens' rights and duties. Besides, I kind of doubt that authorities in Braavos would be interested in NW deserters. If you reported a dangerous Westerosi criminal likely to stir up trouble in Braavos, perhaps. If you reported a slave merchant intent on capturing and selling Braavosi citizents, very probably. But a young man who is having fun instead of doing the duties his Westerosi boss entrusted to him? I doubt it, and I doubt it even more that Arya has the necessary insight into the legal system in Braavos. In addition, I'm not sure how the FM and Braavosi authorities relate to each other. Are the FM a completely legal organization in Braavos? On the one hand, they are servants of a certain god, on the other hand, they are still assassins.

Arya knows a lot about Braavos at that time. She has lived with the Braavosi and among them for quite some time, and she is collecting new knowledge about the place everyday ... that is the entire point of her training at that point.

Of course nobody would give a fig about an NW desertion in Braavos. Which is why this isn't a crime in Braavos and thus it is murder to kill a man for deserting the NW in Braavos.

Arya is doing the same thing a slaver's son would be doing who murders a slave who ran away from his father.

4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Maybe, but this is what Eddard told to Bran, who was a child at the time. It may or may not have got round to Arya at the time. She was also a child then. What I was trying to point out is that even though Dareon is not a dangerous person, Arya, from what she knows, might have a reason to connect a deserter with the image of a dangerous criminal - not necessarily, just might. Regardless of what we, readers may know and understand of the larger context, it is worth trying to look at these events from Arya's viewpoint.

We don't know Arya's viewpoint so far, she never explains why she murdered Dareon. But as I said, Ned never prepared his daughters for the role of lord-executioner so she is acting out of place here even for a Stark. Women do not rule, and women do not execute.

4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I think it would make Ned sad and horrified and he would want to kill the people who did this to his daughter.

Ned isn't a bloodthirsty man, as AGoT makes very, very clear. If he knew what happened to Arya he would be horrified and blame himself and his decision to become Hand, etc. down to warning Cersei about what he found out ... but he would never become obsessed with vengeance.

If he did that, he would have approved of the murder of Viserys and Daenerys after what Rhaegar and Aerys II pulled ... and he would have refused to raise Jon Snow as his own child.

Also, it is not trauma that turned Arya into a killer. It is her desire to fight - which was there in AGoT long before she was traumatized - and then he interaction with Jaqen at Harrenhal. She enjoyed being the ghost of Harrenhal, enjoyed having the control over life and death. It gave her power. And it is this desire which caused her to search out the Faceless Men and stay with them.

Arya has long ago ceased to a victim. That stopped even before she left Harrenhal, with the weasel soup. There she took matters into her own hands and never let go of them. Not while she was alone with the boys, not with the outlaws, and definitely not with the Hound.

4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

As for Arya feeling joy... she feels the satisfaction of revenge, not joy at killing. That is made clear by the incident with Sandor you mentioned. If she enjoyed people's death, she would have killed him. Instead, she finds satisfaction in revenge, and when revenge means letting the man live, she does not kill him. 

Arya enjoys murdering Raff and his very proud of herself how effectively she is doing it. She likes crossing off names of her list ... and she also likes killing. It is what she wants to do - that's why she is with the Faceless Men. She doesn't have to be there, she wants to be there.

4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

That's not desertion. Aemon was also in his care, and he had no instructions on what to do if Aemon was dying, so he had to make his own decision. It happens when you are on a job and cannot contact your superior.

Who cares? Arya could have interpreted that as desertion, too.

4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Well, that's what Gandalf would say, and that's the case with all death sentences in this world and the real one, and one of the reasons why so many people oppose the death penalty. Arya, however, was not educated in this sort of culture and philosophy. It is easy to judge her from the moral viewpoint of a society where we can be sure of a legal system protecting citizens and punishing criminals. Even in a peaceful Westeros, most people's best idea of a second chance is sending criminals to the Wall.

Dareon wasn't tried and executed, he was just murdered. Arya has been through enough to cut Dareon some slack here. I mean, you do realize that she never murdered Gendry or Hot Pie or Jaqen unless I'm mistaken. They were all bound for the Wall, were they not? They are effectively all deserters, too. Even the boy Arry is.

4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

No. Dareon was not taking on jobs to provide for anyone but himself. Arya isn't stupid - she has travelled with Yoren and she knows that just because a black brother is away from the Wall, it does not mean he is a deserter, and she also has first-hand experience of how difficult it can be to go back sometimes. Dareon, however, made no secret of his desertion:

Yoren had a mission ... Sam also had a mission, but who is to say that he actually gives a damn about it anymore? And who is to say that he doesn't break his vows with the woman - as he later actually does?

4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

All in all, I think Arya's experience with Yoren may be just as important here as his father's code or the fact that Jon Snow is the Lord Commander. Yoren saved her life and wanted to take her home and he looked after the would-be watchmen in his charge, protecting them when necessary; yet, Yoren died on the way, killed by Westerosi soldiers. She assessed Dareon because she had hoped to find another Yoren in him, and Dareon made no secret of his desertion or the fact that he was abandoning his fellow-watchmen for personal gain.

Arya might say she agrees and that's why she took this small, unimportant matter into her own small hands. 

Arya is also abandoning her family and Westeros in general for her personal quest of vengeance and honing her skills as an assassin. She is acting much more selfish than Dareon who actually did his duty for quite some time ... whereas Arya just ran and hid and even murdered a man in her brother's service at Harrenhal.

Had she overcome of her cowardice and fear and revealed who she actually was she could have changed the course of the War of the Five Kings. And she could have prevented the deaths of her brother and mother.

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know Arya's viewpoint so far, she never explains why she murdered Dareon. But as I said, Ned never prepared his daughters for the role of lord-executioner so she is acting out of place here even for a Stark. Women do not rule, and women do not execute.

She hated him for his betrayal of Sam and Aemon, and her brother, and for the fact that he was such an arrogant and unpleasant prick about the whole affair, living the high life instead of doing his duty.  I fully accept that she did not fear him, nor was she acting as lord/executioner.  It's a murder, and posibly her worst act, but not one that is hugely bothersome to me.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, it is not trauma that turned Arya into a killer. It is her desire to fight - which was there in AGoT long before she was traumatized - and then he interaction with Jaqen at Harrenhal. She enjoyed being the ghost of Harrenhal, enjoyed having the control over life and death. It gave her power. And it is this desire which caused her to search out the Faceless Men and stay with them.

Arya has long ago ceased to a victim. That stopped even before she left Harrenhal, with the weasel soup. There she took matters into her own hands and never let go of them. Not while she was alone with the boys, not with the outlaws, and definitely not with the Hound.

Her desire to have agency and not be subject to the whims of others, combined with her wartime experiences is what has made her a killer.  Weasel soup was not her idea.  Her only goal was to free the Northern prisoners.  Killing the guards was Jaqen's idea.  I think her awareness of the need for killing was vague.

She did not search out the Faceless Men.  Until she set foot on the ship at Saltpans, the odds of her arriving in Braavos, much less being with t he FM, wouldn't have been worth betting on.  She is only in Braavos because all her other options ran out.  She even considered asking Dareon to take her back to Eastwatch until she found out he wasn't going.  And I think she was disappointed Sam wasn't going that direction as well.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dareon wasn't tried and executed, he was just murdered. Arya has been through enough to cut Dareon some slack here. I mean, you do realize that she never murdered Gendry or Hot Pie or Jaqen unless I'm mistaken. They were all bound for the Wall, were they not? They are effectively all deserters, too. Even the boy Arry is.

You are not bound to the wall until  you take the oath.  That is clear from Jon's story.  Also, there was no doubt at all about Dareon's status.  He readily admitted to being a deserter.  Also, Yoren, their commander, ordered them to leaave.  Besides which, as I've pointed out above,, I think it was Dareon's post-desertion activities and attitude that got him killed as much  as the desertion itself.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya is also abandoning her family and Westeros in general for her personal quest of vengeance and honing her skills as an assassin. She is acting much more selfish than Dareon who actually did his duty for quite some time ... whereas Arya just ran and hid and even murdered a man in her brother's service at Harrenhal.

Had she overcome of her cowardice and fear and revealed who she actually was she could have changed the course of the War of the Five Kings. And she could have prevented the deaths of her brother and mother.

You seem to be under the impresion that Arya is a grown-up.  She is 10 years old and her actions and thoughts to a large extent reflect that fact.

Yesw, she is far too comfortable with killing for my liking.  I hope that something causes her to question her quest for vengeance; maybe if she kills someone she later realizes didn't deserve it.  I do not regard her as completely lost, htough.  She is not crazy, psychopathic or evil, just troubled.  I have hope.

[Trigger Warning]

I don't think anyone would be questioning the rape if it wasn't for the fact that he's a bit of a dick and Arya killed him which puts some people on the defensive, it's pretty obviously written in a way to suggest he was innocent albeit naive about the consequences of sleeping with a lord's daughter. 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

She hated him for his betrayal of Sam and Aemon, and her brother, and for the fact that he was such an arrogant and unpleasant prick about the whole affair, living the high life instead of doing his duty.  I fully accept that she did not fear him, nor was she acting as lord/executioner.  It's a murder, and posibly her worst act, but not one that is hugely bothersome to me.

Just to clear, none of Arya's murders 'bothers' me. I enjoy her killing people, just as I enjoy reading novels in which stuff like that happens. The great things about Arya's story is that she is slowly but surely turned into a very competent murderer. That is what I want to read.

But one has to be honest about the fact that this is dark stuff and that she is a murderer and not just some kid whose had a rough time.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Her desire to have agency and not be subject to the whims of others, combined with her wartime experiences is what has made her a killer.  Weasel soup was not her idea.  Her only goal was to free the Northern prisoners.  Killing the guards was Jaqen's idea.  I think her awareness of the need for killing was vague.

Arya pushed Jaqen to intervene at Harrenhal. She threatened 'to kill' him and coerced him into murder. The agency is hers. I'm not saying she had a clear picture about things at that point ... but she did when she murdered the man to leave Harrenhal and from then on.

There still are a few moments/opportunities where she could have gotten back on track - when Harwin recognizes her, if she had been reunited with Robb and Cat at the Twins if there had been no Red Wedding, possibly even if Sandor had gotten her to the Vale.

But she is still no longer victim after that point. She took her life into her own hands after the weasel soup and whenever things got in her way she did everything to remove them or get around them.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

She did not search out the Faceless Men.  Until she set foot on the ship at Saltpans, the odds of her arriving in Braavos, much less being with t he FM, wouldn't have been worth betting on.  She is only in Braavos because all her other options ran out.  She even considered asking Dareon to take her back to Eastwatch until she found out he wasn't going.  And I think she was disappointed Sam wasn't going that direction as well.

Oh, yes, there is still a lingering desire to return back home, whatever that might be, but she doesn't have to choose between 'home' and murder, she had also choices between various careers in Braavos - other homes, so to speak - and murder. And she always chooses murder - meaning to stay with the Faceless Men.

But to be sure - if she truly wanted to get to Eastwatch after arriving in Braavos she could have gone there. The Faceless Men could have helped ... or she could have stolen the money to get herself a passage. She may look like a child, but she really isn't anymore.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

You are not bound to the wall until  you take the oath.  That is clear from Jon's story.  Also, there was no doubt at all about Dareon's status.  He readily admitted to being a deserter.  Also, Yoren, their commander, ordered them to leaave.  Besides which, as I've pointed out above,, I think it was Dareon's post-desertion activities and attitude that got him killed as much  as the desertion itself.

Nah, that's all done away with the desertion of Grand Maester Orwyle in FaB. That guy chose to take the black to prevent his own beheading, then he bolted, and was subsequently considered a deserter.

Jon isn't a criminal taking the black to get out of punishment - he is recruit who just wants to take the black. He is free to go until he takes his vow. But the criminals aren't. They took the black the moment they agreed to go to the Wall by ship or foot or horse.

Yoren cannot free anyone from such vows ... nor did he ever free Jaqen who he likely would have preferred to burn alive.

What exactly got Dareon killed isn't the issue - the overall reason for the murder, we assume, is the fact that Dareon deserted.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

You seem to be under the impresion that Arya is a grown-up.  She is 10 years old and her actions and thoughts to a large extent reflect that fact.

Of course, but I if we cut her some slack for her murders - a pretty grown-up thing, all things considered - then we can also take a closer look at her other decisions. Things like keeping her identity secret are things a child could have realized were wrong. And that was a pretty big mistake.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Yesw, she is far too comfortable with killing for my liking.  I hope that something causes her to question her quest for vengeance; maybe if she kills someone she later realizes didn't deserve it.  I do not regard her as completely lost, htough.  She is not crazy, psychopathic or evil, just troubled.  I have hope.

I'm sure she could stop if her situation changed and she lived in a healthier environment for a longer period of time. But she is pretty much psychopathic already. She is detached from her emotions and feels no remorse for her murders. They have become completely normal for her, just as using mortal violence as a means to solve (minor) problems. To our knowledge, the big thought about Dareon's murder was securing his boots for herself (making her both a murderer and a scavenger) and after she did away with Raff her main thought is about how efficient everything was and how she is now going to get rid of the corpse and clean everything up.

That is pretty much serial killer behavior the kind of which you find in people who have already killed a lot of people - think of poisoners who already did away with 3-4 or so spouses and are so much in the game already that they prepare the body for police and coroner before calling the authorities.

Arya already has murdered people who didn't deserve it. The guardsman, Dareon, even insuarance guy didn't exactly deserve death - and definitely not from Arya's hands since they never wronged her. It cannot really get any worse.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just to clear, none of Arya's murders 'bothers' me. I enjoy her killing people, just as I enjoy reading novels in which stuff like that happens. The great things about Arya's story is that she is slowly but surely turned into a very competent murderer. That is what I want to read.

But one has to be honest about the fact that this is dark stuff and that she is a murderer and not just some kid whose had a rough time.

Arya pushed Jaqen to intervene at Harrenhal. She threatened 'to kill' him and coerced him into murder. The agency is hers. I'm not saying she had a clear picture about things at that point ... but she did when she murdered the man to leave Harrenhal and from then on.

There still are a few moments/opportunities where she could have gotten back on track - when Harwin recognizes her, if she had been reunited with Robb and Cat at the Twins if there had been no Red Wedding, possibly even if Sandor had gotten her to the Vale.

But she is still no longer victim after that point. She took her life into her own hands after the weasel soup and whenever things got in her way she did everything to remove them or get around them.

Oh, yes, there is still a lingering desire to return back home, whatever that might be, but she doesn't have to choose between 'home' and murder, she had also choices between various careers in Braavos - other homes, so to speak - and murder. And she always chooses murder - meaning to stay with the Faceless Men.

But to be sure - if she truly wanted to get to Eastwatch after arriving in Braavos she could have gone there. The Faceless Men could have helped ... or she could have stolen the money to get herself a passage. She may look like a child, but she really isn't anymore.

Nah, that's all done away with the desertion of Grand Maester Orwyle in FaB. That guy chose to take the black to prevent his own beheading, then he bolted, and was subsequently considered a deserter.

Jon isn't a criminal taking the black to get out of punishment - he is recruit who just wants to take the black. He is free to go until he takes his vow. But the criminals aren't. They took the black the moment they agreed to go to the Wall by ship or foot or horse.

Yoren cannot free anyone from such vows ... nor did he ever free Jaqen who he likely would have preferred to burn alive.

What exactly got Dareon killed isn't the issue - the overall reason for the murder, we assume, is the fact that Dareon deserted.

Of course, but I if we cut her some slack for her murders - a pretty grown-up thing, all things considered - then we can also take a closer look at her other decisions. Things like keeping her identity secret are things a child could have realized were wrong. And that was a pretty big mistake.

I'm sure she could stop if her situation changed and she lived in a healthier environment for a longer period of time. But she is pretty much psychopathic already. She is detached from her emotions and feels no remorse for her murders. They have become completely normal for her, just as using mortal violence as a means to solve (minor) problems. To our knowledge, the big thought about Dareon's murder was securing his boots for herself (making her both a murderer and a scavenger) and after she did away with Raff her main thought is about how efficient everything was and how she is now going to get rid of the corpse and clean everything up.

That is pretty much serial killer behavior the kind of which you find in people who have already killed a lot of people - think of poisoners who already did away with 3-4 or so spouses and are so much in the game already that they prepare the body for police and coroner before calling the authorities.

Arya already has murdered people who didn't deserve it. The guardsman, Dareon, even insuarance guy didn't exactly deserve death - and definitely not from Arya's hands since they never wronged her. It cannot really get any worse.

I still think you’re being much too hard on her.  Roose Bolton turned Harrenhall into a rape camp.  Of course, she’d be afraid to reveal herself to him.  If she were in his power, there would be no need to find a Fake Arya for Ramsay.  And, the guard might have no choice but to serve Roose, but she and her companions were effectively prisoners.  So his death was sad, but legitimate, IMHO.

As to revenge, this is a world where acting like Titus Andronicus towards those who wrong you, your family, or your servants and people is universally considered the correct thing to do.  She shares that common mindset.  Justice and law, as we would understand these things, barely exist.  Instead, societies are governed by codes of honour, which anyone with a weapon is expected to enforce.

I think the Abomination really altered perceptions of Arya - that she’s a sadistic psychopath - in a way that does not fit the book character.