Dareon was a victim of Arya's brand of "justice"

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

She knows what is right.

I agree with you on everything, except this. She only thinks she knows what is right. 

And I too can't wait to see how her ark of "time for repayment" blow up, and I will be satisfied (probably, I might not) when he jumps into it, but that doesn't change anything about whether she should go on a journey to 'kick some butt', or not. It's still bad to her, altough we want it. If you're a wildcard FM, noone and no authority does limit you. You yourself have to draw the line. If not, then don't wonder if you become a monster. She's nowhere near being a monster, but she pretty much showed the sign that ending up there is a possibility, unless she draws that line.

[Northern Sword]

13 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I agree with you on everything, except this. She only thinks she knows what is right. 

And I too can't wait to see how her ark of "time for repayment" blow up, and I will be satisfied (probably, I might not) when he jumps into it, but that doesn't change anything about whether she should go on a journey to 'kick some butt', or not. It's still bad to her, altough we want it. If you're a wildcard FM, noone and no authority does limit you. You yourself have to draw the line. If not, then don't wonder if you become a monster. She's nowhere near being a monster, but she pretty much showed the sign that ending up there is a possibility, unless she draws that line.

Yeah, her viewpoint, her sense of right and wrong, which might be kinda warped by this point too. Whatever is coming for her will be good either way. 

[Egged]

Jon gave Arya Needle. "Stick em with the pointy end."

Arya has been struggling with keeping her Stark identity. Murdering Daeron felt like her reaffirming it, as if in her mind this is something her father would have done.

When she goes back to Winterfell and Jon is in the way of Sansa or Bran or Rickon ruling, Jon ruling over Winterfell thanks in great part to an army of wildlings, maybe even with Val, what will she think? What would she think of Jon breaking his vows? Would she have joined up with Catelyn by then? How would Catelyn feel, and what would the impact be on Arya?

People are quick to say "Jon died, his watch ended", but Arya isn't a book reader. Who will really believe Jon died and came back to life and that this isn't just a lie to justify him breaking his vows? People are quick to say she and Jon are best buddies, but Arya has a sister, two other brothers, and a mother who hates Jon; the bastard, the half-brother as Sansa would so often remind them.

Arya ending up in a confrontation with Jon, a confrontation with her heart, is seemingly very likely.

[a black swan]

7 hours ago, Egged said:

Jon gave Arya Needle. "Stick em with the pointy end."

Arya has been struggling with keeping her Stark identity. Murdering Daeron felt like her reaffirming it, as if in her mind this is something her father would have done.

When she goes back to Winterfell and Jon is in the way of Sansa or Bran or Rickon ruling, Jon ruling over Winterfell thanks in great part to an army of wildlings, maybe even with Val, what will she think? What would she think of Jon breaking his vows? Would she have joined up with Catelyn by then? How would Catelyn feel, and what would the impact be on Arya?

People are quick to say "Jon died, his watch ended", but Arya isn't a book reader. Who will really believe Jon died and came back to life and that this isn't just a lie to justify him breaking his vows? People are quick to say she and Jon are best buddies, but Arya has a sister, two other brothers, and a mother who hates Jon; the bastard, the half-brother as Sansa would so often remind them.

Arya ending up in a confrontation with Jon, a confrontation with her heart, is seemingly very likely.

The absolute REACH. LOL

Arya saw Beric die and get ressurected and you think the news of Jon being ressurected would be unbelievable to Arya? Is this a joke? She's training with a magical order in Braavos after all. 

You clearly have zero understanding of Arya and Jon's relationship if you think Sansa or her dead mother's opinions on Jon actually matter. They don't to Arya. 

You need to reevaluate everything in your post. Maybe even think about actually reading the books too. 

 

[Egged]

4 hours ago, a black swan said:

The absolute REACH. LOL

Arya saw Beric die and get ressurected and you think the news of Jon being ressurected would be unbelievable to Arya? Is this a joke? She's training with a magical order in Braavos after all. 

You clearly have zero understanding of Arya and Jon's relationship if you think Sansa or her dead mother's opinions on Jon actually matter. They don't to Arya. 

You need to reevaluate everything in your post. Maybe even think about actually reading the books too. 

 

No

[The Commentator]

13 hours ago, Egged said:

Jon gave Arya Needle. "Stick em with the pointy end."

Arya has been struggling with keeping her Stark identity. Murdering Daeron felt like her reaffirming it, as if in her mind this is something her father would have done.

When she goes back to Winterfell and Jon is in the way of Sansa or Bran or Rickon ruling, Jon ruling over Winterfell thanks in great part to an army of wildlings, maybe even with Val, what will she think? What would she think of Jon breaking his vows? Would she have joined up with Catelyn by then? How would Catelyn feel, and what would the impact be on Arya?

People are quick to say "Jon died, his watch ended", but Arya isn't a book reader. Who will really believe Jon died and came back to life and that this isn't just a lie to justify him breaking his vows? People are quick to say she and Jon are best buddies, but Arya has a sister, two other brothers, and a mother who hates Jon; the bastard, the half-brother as Sansa would so often remind them.

Arya ending up in a confrontation with Jon, a confrontation with her heart, is seemingly very likely.

Arya doesn’t have to be a book reader to see that Jon isn’t normal. Jon will be pale, cold, no pulse, full of holes, and can’t wander away from his wolf. Jon won’t be normal and it will be obvious. Arya has been desensitized to corpses and all things grossly offensive. Maybe she won’t be scared and may even accept him as her mate.

[Egged]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Arya doesn’t have to be a book reader to see that Jon isn’t normal. Jon will be pale, cold, no pulse, full of holes, and can’t wander away from his wolf. Jon won’t be normal and it will be obvious. Arya has been desensitized to corpses and all things grossly offensive. Maybe she won’t be scared and may even accept him as her mate.

Maybe she will be able to tell something is wrong with him it's true, makes sense, especially if by then she has met Cat again. But that doesn't mean she'll be all happy and hugging him. Jon ruling over Winterfell after his family was supposedly dead but actually isn't, with a bunch of wildlings, no longer part of the Night's Watch, does raise issues for Cat, potentially Sansa, for Rickon, propped up by a red witch who wants to burns the weirwood, with potential rumors of her having burned a child alive, maybe even rumored to be what brought Jon back to life. It doesn't look good for a friendly family reunion. Will things work out in the end between them? Sure, most likely, but my point is that initial reunion would likely not be on good terms, as Jon isn't going to be in a favorable position reputation-wise.

Also, we know of others who get raised from the dead; the wights. Doesn't mean Arya would be cool with those. We don't know yet how Jon would come back to life, what he would look like, etc.

I don't know why some people pull their hair out at the mere mention of an initial conflict between the Starks upon their reunion, weird.

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, Egged said:

I don't know why some people pull their hair out at the mere mention of an initial conflict between the Starks upon their reunion, weird.

It's pretty clear that that the Stark siblings all love each other (not in that way, but in normal, healthy sibling ways) and want to be reunited with each other. Even Sansa thinks about how wonderful it would be to see Jon again, and they aren't especially close. The Starks are a rare example of a close knit family who love and support each other the way families should do. In a series with frought and dysfuntional familes like the Greyjoys, Lannisters, Baratheons and Martells, the Starks really do stand out as a true pack. Sansa and Arya, who have a sibling rivalry going, still love each other and share fond memories. Jon has warm feelings for all his little brothers and sisters. Bran is so desperate to see them all again he even wishes they could all become ravens and fly away together. It's really sweet and sad and tragic, but above all, it's hopeful. It is why House Stark, after all is said and done, will be reunited, despite the best efforts of nihalists, cynics and sociopaths like Littlefinger and the Lannisters and the Boltons.

Are the Starks perfect? No, because no family is perfect. They squabble. They have petty rivalries. They get mad at each other. Sansa took most of her family for granted. Families do that sometimes. It doesn't mean they don't love each other, or that they will never learn to value each other. The Starks are physically seperate, but emotionally, spiritually, each finds some way to reaffirm their Stark identity at some point throughout the books. They each have little moments of reflection in a godswood, for example.

That's why people recoil at proposals like yours. It's not wierd at all. If anything, seeing Littlefinger manipulate Sansa into a war with Jon where people die is painfully tragic, and the Starks don't need any more tragedy. Seeing Arya turn on her beloved big brother for contrived reasons is even more needlessly sad. It's why, for all of the shows many faults, seeing Sansa and Arya take down Littlefinger together was damn cathartic. I know things will get worse before they get better. So yeah, there probably will be conflict between the Starks before there is genuine reunion. It doesn't mean we all have to enjoy reading about it.

[Kolx]

Arya is just Cersei with a dagger

[The Commentator]

22 hours ago, Egged said:

Maybe she will be able to tell something is wrong with him it's true, makes sense, especially if by then she has met Cat again. But that doesn't mean she'll be all happy and hugging him. Jon ruling over Winterfell after his family was supposedly dead but actually isn't, with a bunch of wildlings, no longer part of the Night's Watch, does raise issues for Cat, potentially Sansa, for Rickon, propped up by a red witch who wants to burns the weirwood, with potential rumors of her having burned a child alive, maybe even rumored to be what brought Jon back to life. It doesn't look good for a friendly family reunion. Will things work out in the end between them? Sure, most likely, but my point is that initial reunion would likely not be on good terms, as Jon isn't going to be in a favorable position reputation-wise.

Also, we know of others who get raised from the dead; the wights. Doesn't mean Arya would be cool with those. We don't know yet how Jon would come back to life, what he would look like, etc.

I don't know why some people pull their hair out at the mere mention of an initial conflict between the Starks upon their reunion, weird.

I do predict a very messy conflict between the Starks for control of Winterfell.  I am sure Sansa will put forth her claim.  She will be pregnant with Harry’s baby.  
 

If Arya’s love for Jon is anything like his for her, she could overlook the fact that he’s a walking dead.  After all, even death won’t stop him from looking for her.  

[Egged]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I do predict a very messy conflict between the Starks for control of Winterfell.  I am sure Sansa will put forth her claim.  She will be pregnant with Harry’s baby.  
 

If Arya’s love for Jon is anything like his for her, she could overlook the fact that he’s a walking dead.  After all, even death won’t stop him from looking for her.  

Yeah I think the issue with Arya and Jon would be on their initial meeting, or even before they meet. Really a matter of perception. Like Ned told Bran, before you execute someone, you should at least listen to what they have to say. I think this is precisely what would happen, where Arya is first set on a confrontation path with Jon, but then she meets him, hears him out, and then it is resolved. In a way, it would be a true re-affirmation of her Stark identity, in line with what her father said (even if it was said to Bran).

[Rose of Red Lake]

I think Arya is a victim of a cult.

Sansa, Bran, and Arya are learning from their mentors, but I also think Little finger, Bloodraven, and Kindly Man are dangerous for them too. If they refuse to let them go, or try to get them deeper into the mindset of forgetting who they are, giving them a new identity, and separating them from their family... that's cult like behavior.

[Egged]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Arya is a victim of a cult.

Sansa, Bran, and Arya are learning from their mentors, but I also think Little finger, Bloodraven, and Kindly Man are dangerous for them too. If they refuse to let them go, or try to get them deeper into the mindset of forgetting who they are, giving them a new identity, and separating them from their family... that's cult like behavior.

Interesting point. In a way, every Stark kid is facing a potential temptation. Jon is conflicted between his vow and a deep-seated desire to take Winterfell, to be a Stark. Bran is tempted with the powers of the Three Eyed Crow. Sansa is tempted with Littlefinger's scheming prowess. Arya with murderous powers. Even Catelyn, now as Lady Stoneheart. Rickon, if he was older, could also be tempted similarly by his powers and potential allies among the Skagosi who he might see as a new family.

[Rose of Red Lake]

32 minutes ago, Egged said:

Interesting point. In a way, every Stark kid is facing a potential temptation. Jon is conflicted between his vow and a deep-seated desire to take Winterfell, to be a Stark. Bran is tempted with the powers of the Three Eyed Crow. Sansa is tempted with Littlefinger's scheming prowess. Arya with murderous powers. Even Catelyn, now as Lady Stoneheart. Rickon, if he was older, could also be tempted similarly by his powers and potential allies among the Skagosi who he might see as a new family.

Yeah, temptations that might not be best for the person.

The Wall may look like a cult on the surface, but not everyone there thinks the same, there isn't a creepy guru involved preying on people's weaknesses (Old Bear said he didn't care if Jon tried to desert), and it's built on the idea of service, not adulation or "insights" of one person.

Arya thinks she's helping by killing Daeron but she's probably thinking more rigidly about the Watch deserters, than what happens in reality.

The cult punishing her for it by making her blind could be seen as helpful lesson, but did she learn anything? It may have just made her more dependent on them.

[chrisdaw]

On 4/10/2021 at 3:23 AM, Egged said:

Yeah I think the issue with Arya and Jon would be on their initial meeting, or even before they meet. Really a matter of perception. Like Ned told Bran, before you execute someone, you should at least listen to what they have to say. I think this is precisely what would happen, where Arya is first set on a confrontation path with Jon, but then she meets him, hears him out, and then it is resolved. In a way, it would be a true re-affirmation of her Stark identity, in line with what her father said (even if it was said to Bran).

It is an affirmation of identity, and an affirmation that she doesn't (yet) understand justice or what is her role (as yet, none). Jon would not condone Arya killing Dareon, it was wrongfully done and a mistake, exactly as the Kindly Man says. Arya has no authority to judge or execute anyone, that authority is invested in someone by a society and comes with responsibilities, it is a public service and as such should be transparent. Jon understands this, Arya does not, she's not a male so she wasn't naturally taught it directly as she wouldn't be expected to have to do justice, but she will learn it still, it's a large part of her arc.

Arya and Jon are never going to have the same relationship they did. Jon is returning armoured in ice, all warmth having allegedly fled him. Warmth is love. Jon is going to be harsh, demanding and judgemental, and Arya's not going to admit to him what she was and what she's done. There's always going to be that between them now. There will be no loving reunion, no hair mussing and hugs. Probably Arya will observe Jon in another face and when she does decide to make herself known to him it's going to be very formal. And to him, Arya is going to be primarily a marriage pawn, a way to seal an alliance. That is her role, her duty, and the new Jon is going to be all about holding people to account for having not done their duty, and forcing them to do it in future. And her duty will be to marry where her lord tells her, and not be running around on adventures killing people.

The text flags in Arya's thoughts what's going to happen with Robb/Cat in place of Jon.

Quote

 

He touched her under the chin. "You will not be the first highborn captive we've ransomed. Nor the last, I'd hope."

That much was true, Arya knew. Knights were captured and ransomed all the time, and sometimes women were too. But what if Robb won't pay their price? She wasn't a famous knight, and kings were supposed to put the realm before their sisters. And her lady mother, what would she say? Would she still want her back, after all the things she'd done? Arya chewed her lip and wondered.

 

Jon will be KITN, and particularly ice black bastard hearted, and a king is supposed to put the realm before their sisters. And would he still want her back after all the things she's done (and yet to do)?

Arya's behaviour is completely understandable and sympathetic for a child, but it's more important the king condemn it than a brother empathise with it. Arya's personal wants will not align with the realm's needs, and the realm's needs will be more important than a brother's care.

[The Commentator]

Arya will be the one person who will accept Jon’s return. She will accept him even if he comes back like Coldhands. She has always accepted him. That is not going to change.  Jon has never tried to change her and that is one reason she loves him.