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The Lord of the Crossing

Dareon was a victim of Arya's brand of "justice"

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Arya kills Dareon because, consciously or not, it's the Stark thing to do to execute a deserter of the Night Watch, like her father would have done, or so she thinks. She's punished for it, but unless you think she will remain no one, reclaiming her Stark identity would likely override that punishment.

Interesting implications for if she meets Jon again, as by then he would probably be considered a deserter if he's no longer at the NW, and rumored to be resurrected by a red priest, potentially supported by Wildlings more than northerners, maybe even made lord of Winterfell by Stannis, making him very far removed from what a Stark is in Arya's mind. Between Jon and Sansa in this context, she would likely mend with Sansa over Jon.

Also, note that Arya didn't let Dareon speak, something Ned told Bran to do when he would find himself in such a situation.

Edited by Egged

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1 hour ago, Egged said:

Arya kills Dareon because, consciously or not, it's the Stark thing to do to execute a deserter of the Night Watch, like her father would have done, or so she thinks. She's punished for it, but unless you think she will remain no one, reclaiming her Stark identity would likely override that punishment.

Interesting implications for if she meets Jon again, as by then he would probably be considered a deserter if he's no longer at the NW, and rumored to be resurrected by a red priest, potentially supported by Wildlings more than northerners, maybe even made lord of Winterfell by Stannis, making him very far removed from what a Stark is in Arya's mind. Between Jon and Sansa in this context, she would likely mend with Sansa over Jon.

Also, note that Arya didn't let Dareon speak, something Ned told Bran to do when he would find himself in such a situation.

How would she let him speak, do you think she has the physical power to hold him down and hear his last words?

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23 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

How would she let him speak, do you think she has the physical power to hold him down and hear his last words?

She could have talked to him, ask him if he really is a deserter, explain himself, anything. She just kills him cold-blooded.

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Dareon let everyone in the brothel know that he was a deserter. Arya heard him say so, as did others. Once Sam went to Dareon and asked him to go back to them, but Dareon refused. It was no secret. Yet, Arya did talk to Dareon before killing him:

Quote

 

The swollen red sun hung in the sky behind the row of masts when Cat took her leave of the Happy Port, with a plump purse of coins and a barrow empty but for salt and seaweed. Dareon was leaving too. He had promised to sing at the Inn of the Green Eel this evening, he told her as they strolled along together. "Every time I play the Eel I come away with silver," he boasted, "and some nights there are captains there, and owners." They crossed a little bridge, and made their way down a crooked back street as the shadows of the day grew longer. "Soon I will be playing in the Purple, and after that the Sealord's Palace," Dareon went on. Cat's empty barrow clattered over the cobblestones, making its own sort of rattling music. "Yesterday I ate herring with the whores, but within the year I'll be having emperor crab with courtesans."

"What happened to your brother?" Cat asked. "The fat one. Did he ever find a ship to Oldtown? He said he was supposed to sail on the Lady Ushanora."

"We all were. Lord Snow's command. I told Sam, leave the old man, but the fat fool would not listen." The last light of the setting sun shone in his hair. "Well, it's too late now."

"Just so," said Cat as they stepped into the gloom of a twisty little alley.

 

 

 

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On 2/4/2021 at 12:50 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

And again you come up with this nonsense. Tell me, if the girl helped him climb into his room, how on earth he had to force himself on her? This, again, makes no sense, no matter from which direction you try to approach it. 

So, again, the two options here are still only 1) he raped the girl intentionally, 2) he didn't rape her at all, and she lied. There is no actual way he unintentionally raped a girl that invited him trough her window.

If she invited him, then it is likely that Lord Rowan figured out that his daughter had to help him come inside, since she likely had guards outside the door, otherwise he would not have come trough the window.

Then Lord Rowan probably made the best out of the situation: He had to serve justice for his daughter, but managed to spare the boy's life woth sending him to the Wall. It actually makes sense, a lot more than anything else, tho this had been said and explained to you several times.

 

 

Again, you take Dareon's version of events at face value. I do not. Dareon has every motivation to lie about being pulled through the window. He has every reason to be dishonest with himself about whether he is guilty or not. It's called a "victim complex." The basic problem with your position, as has been repeatedly pointed out and which you have repeatedly ignored, is that there is no proof that Dareon was actually pulled through the girl's window, only his word. When that is your only source of evidence, you have to consider the possibility that he is actually guilty.

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13 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Again, you take Dareon's version of events at face value. I do not. Dareon has every motivation to lie about being pulled through the window. He has every reason to be dishonest with himself about whether he is guilty or not. It's called a "victim complex." The basic problem with your position, as has been repeatedly pointed out and which you have repeatedly ignored, is that there is no proof that Dareon was actually pulled through the girl's window, only his word. When that is your only source of evidence, you have to consider the possibility that he is actually guilty.

Also, if the Watch is anything like normal prisons, Daeron has a lot of reasons to lie

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7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

So maybe she knows the FM might not be a totally legal organization either? Or if they are legal, maybe she knows there is not much point in hoping that a government that is OK with an assassin organization who'd kill anyone for the right payment would be all for legality and justice? Honestly, we don't know how much Arya knows about the legal system in Braavos. From what we can see from her POV, it is next to nothing. (Of course, you can always give me the quote that tells us what she knows about the Braavosi authorities.) Based on what we know from her POV, we have no reason to believe that she has experienced in Braavos anything that could have restored her faith in an official justice system. 

The Faceless Men are definitely a legal organization. Everybody in Braavos knows who they are and what they are doing - I mean, you do remember that everybody tells Arya their full names back on the ship and asks her to remember them? That's because a Faceless Person is not murdering people they know.

Arya knows more than enough about Braavosi society by the time she murders Dareon.

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

And, of course, Arya, as an orphaned and lost child, should know all of that. Who has taught her on international law? If she thought she could trust the Braavosi authorities, she would reveal herself to them and ask for their help as a war orphan. But the world does not work like that in her experience. If it did, then the Kindly Man would have taken her to the local authorities responsible for orphaned and abandoned children instead of using her as an apprentice assassin.

The kindly man offered her again and again to take up another profession, to start another life. They offered to help her with that. They would also have helped her if she wanted to return to Westeros.

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Nope. Dareon is nothing to her family or to her family's financial interests. The NW is about protecting the realms of men. All men.

Arya is somewhat connected to Watch through her family - Benjen and Jon - as well as through being a Stark in general. She takes her values as absolutes to the point that she murders again. If she was trying to do something good in principle - like Dany or the Braavosi did when they abolished slavery - then one could talk about that. But upholding values that involve murder is not something to be applauded. Murdering deserters isn't that great a thing in general, you know, regardless who does it, and Ned's execution of Gared is a travesty of justice. The man had the knowledge to warn people about the Others.

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Except that we know her viewpoint and why she killed Dareon. I even gave you the quote before. Women may not rule or execute in general, but so far there have always been men to do it. Arya does not know if the Stark pack exists any longer. She is a lone wolf now, acting and surviving on her own.  

I've no problem with her surviving on her own, I've problems with her murdering people, especially those who could not defend themselves.

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I agree with you on this. I said he would want to kill the people who did this to his daughter, and I still think he would feel murderous if he found this out, but no, I don't think (nor did I say) that he would be obsessed with vengeance or that he would place vengeance before more important things, such as healing his daughter, for example, or the good of other people.  

Ned just isn't a murderer. And it is not that he would need Arya's story to figure out/be of the opinion that Gregor and his goons or the Lannisters in general suck. Instead, he would likely have severe issues with the people who didn't do their best to restore Arya to her rightful place.

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Her desire to learn to use a sword, as a child, does not mean she is bloodthirsty. She searched out the FM because that was her only idea to do in Braavos. The power she needed was control over her own life against anyone who'd want to torture, kill or rape her. That's a pretty understandable desire, given the world she lives in. By the way, she didn't go to Braavos immediately after she met Jaqen. She still wanted to go home to Winterfell, but then she almost stumbled into the Red Wedding, where her brother and mother were murdered. She went to Braavos only when she felt there was no other choice. 

I know why she went there, but I also know where she stayed ... and with whom. And we all know that she likes what she does. She excels at it. Most of her murders she committed in Braavos - when she was definitely not in any danger to be tortured, killed, or raped.

But of course Arya's general character and personality is rooted in her desire to become a fighter. That's the beginning. She starts her bloodwork very early, and she isn't prepared for that, but the way she copes with her trauma is to become what she fears, so she can do unto others as they have done unto her, basically.

And the way she deposed of the Tickler certainly also shows that she gives in to very brutal tendencies when given the opportunity/being pushed. But she did get much more professional with Raff.

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

You know that you are talking about a (deeply traumatized) 10-year-old child, don't you?

That is irrelevant when we discuss what she did. She killed people. If you are her therapist then you can bother with her background, but not when you think about what she did.

Her being traumatized doesn't explain why she murdered Dareon or insurance guy. It also doesn't give her motives for those murders ... since they never did anything to her. I understand why Arya may want revenge for wrongs done to her, her family, and her friends.

And I guess you also get that Arya only looks like a child at this point. She is a very dangerous killer you'd not like to run in on the street. You'd also not want your children to play with a person like her.

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

She wanted to go home. She tried extremely hard. And when she first met Dareon, she hoped she could ask him to take her to Eastwatch. That's how badly she wants to be with the FM.

If she wanted to go, she could go. She never makes any real attempt, never tells anyone who she actually is, never asks the Faceless Men to send her to the Wall, etc.

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

No, Arya does not "interpret" anything as desertion. Dareon admitted it often and loud enough that he was deserting. I gave you quotes on that a few days ago.

Jon Snow also admitted that he deserted ... and Mormont interpreted it differently, no? Jon also claimed when he was with the wildlings that he was a deserter ... and yet that doesn't seem to have been the whole truth, no? Or would you say that Arya was 'justified' in murdering Jon - or a Jon-like undercover agent with the wildlings - by Arya if she had hidden among the wildlings?

Bottom line is - Dareon saying stuff in public is in no way justification for his murder.

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

As I pointed out last time, Arya does not kill anyone just because they are phyisically prevented from getting to the Wall. The boy Arry or Gendry are definitely not deserters. They have taken no vows and have not committed any crimes. They are refugees. We know that Jon would have been able to change his mind before taking the vow even though he had already lived on the Wall. But that wasn't even the situation with Yoren's group. They were captured and prevented from going to the Wall. And even in Braavos Arya briefly hopes that Dareon would take her to Eastwatch - in other words to the Wall. Dareon, however, took a vow and then admitted to desertion while on an NW mission.

For the recruits who are not criminals this might be true (although Lommy Greenhands was caught stealing, so he may have been forced to go to the Wall rather than being recruited) but all the criminals no longer had a choice. For them, the rule is that it is deserting to not go to the Wall - as it was with Grand Maester Orwyle who lost his head because he declared to take the black to avoid being executed, then bolted, to be subsequently executed after he was caught again - not just when you ran away when you got to the Wall.

Bittersteel would also a deserter of that category.

The duty of Arya's gang after they were attacked - especially of the likes or Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen - would have been to continue to the Wall.

And in general - it is a very ugly thing on Arya's part to not convince Gendry and Hot Pie to do what they promised to do - go to the Wall - and then later murder another deserter.

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Because she realized how dangerous Roose Bolton was?

She had no idea about that, she just didn't want to serve at Harrenhal under Lord Vargo Hoat. Recall that 'Nan' actually wanted to accompany Roose Bolton back North. She only decided to run away when Roose told her he would hand over her and Harrenhal to Hoat.

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50 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also, if the Watch is anything like normal prisons, Daeron has a lot of reasons to lie

What you did there. I see it. :leaving:

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7 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:
8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also, if the Watch is anything like normal prisons, Daeron has a lot of reasons to lie

What you did there. I see it.

I mean just saying, in normal prisons, no rapist ever tells the truth. They all either did something else to get behind bars, or in reality they're innocent.

Also given that the sexual repression is a lot worse on the Wall, I doubt rapists have a kinder fate then in the real world.

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Faceless Men are definitely a legal organization. Everybody in Braavos knows who they are and what they are doing - I mean, you do remember that everybody tells Arya their full names back on the ship and asks her to remember them? That's because a Faceless Person is not murdering people they know.

Arya knows more than enough about Braavosi society by the time she murders Dareon.

The kindly man offered her again and again to take up another profession, to start another life. They offered to help her with that. They would also have helped her if she wanted to return to Westeros.

Arya is somewhat connected to Watch through her family - Benjen and Jon - as well as through being a Stark in general. She takes her values as absolutes to the point that she murders again. If she was trying to do something good in principle - like Dany or the Braavosi did when they abolished slavery - then one could talk about that. But upholding values that involve murder is not something to be applauded. Murdering deserters isn't that great a thing in general, you know, regardless who does it, and Ned's execution of Gared is a travesty of justice. The man had the knowledge to warn people about the Others.

I've no problem with her surviving on her own, I've problems with her murdering people, especially those who could not defend themselves.

Ned just isn't a murderer. And it is not that he would need Arya's story to figure out/be of the opinion that Gregor and his goons or the Lannisters in general suck. Instead, he would likely have severe issues with the people who didn't do their best to restore Arya to her rightful place.

I know why she went there, but I also know where she stayed ... and with whom. And we all know that she likes what she does. She excels at it. Most of her murders she committed in Braavos - when she was definitely not in any danger to be tortured, killed, or raped.

But of course Arya's general character and personality is rooted in her desire to become a fighter. That's the beginning. She starts her bloodwork very early, and she isn't prepared for that, but the way she copes with her trauma is to become what she fears, so she can do unto others as they have done unto her, basically.

And the way she deposed of the Tickler certainly also shows that she gives in to very brutal tendencies when given the opportunity/being pushed. But she did get much more professional with Raff.

That is irrelevant when we discuss what she did. She killed people. If you are her therapist then you can bother with her background, but not when you think about what she did.

Her being traumatized doesn't explain why she murdered Dareon or insurance guy. It also doesn't give her motives for those murders ... since they never did anything to her. I understand why Arya may want revenge for wrongs done to her, her family, and her friends.

And I guess you also get that Arya only looks like a child at this point. She is a very dangerous killer you'd not like to run in on the street. You'd also not want your children to play with a person like her.

If she wanted to go, she could go. She never makes any real attempt, never tells anyone who she actually is, never asks the Faceless Men to send her to the Wall, etc.

Jon Snow also admitted that he deserted ... and Mormont interpreted it differently, no? Jon also claimed when he was with the wildlings that he was a deserter ... and yet that doesn't seem to have been the whole truth, no? Or would you say that Arya was 'justified' in murdering Jon - or a Jon-like undercover agent with the wildlings - by Arya if she had hidden among the wildlings?

Bottom line is - Dareon saying stuff in public is in no way justification for his murder.

For the recruits who are not criminals this might be true (although Lommy Greenhands was caught stealing, so he may have been forced to go to the Wall rather than being recruited) but all the criminals no longer had a choice. For them, the rule is that it is deserting to not go to the Wall - as it was with Grand Maester Orwyle who lost his head because he declared to take the black to avoid being executed, then bolted, to be subsequently executed after he was caught again - not just when you ran away when you got to the Wall.

Bittersteel would also a deserter of that category.

The duty of Arya's gang after they were attacked - especially of the likes or Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen - would have been to continue to the Wall.

And in general - it is a very ugly thing on Arya's part to not convince Gendry and Hot Pie to do what they promised to do - go to the Wall - and then later murder another deserter.

She had no idea about that, she just didn't want to serve at Harrenhal under Lord Vargo Hoat. Recall that 'Nan' actually wanted to accompany Roose Bolton back North. She only decided to run away when Roose told her he would hand over her and Harrenhal to Hoat.

Killing the Tickler was a fist-pumping moment, and 100% justified.

And, I wouldn’t want to be in the power of Hoat, either.

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18 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Nope. Dareon is nothing to her family or to her family's financial interests. The NW is about protecting the realms of men. All men.

Well I guess than the Wildlings aren't men, since they spent thousand of years mostly under Stark rule - her father included, in hampering them.

18 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Her desire to learn to use a sword, as a child, does not mean she is bloodthirsty. She searched out the FM because that was her only idea to do in Braavos. The power she needed was control over her own life against anyone who'd want to torture, kill or rape her. That's a pretty understandable desire, given the world she lives in. By the way, she didn't go to Braavos immediately after she met Jaqen. She still wanted to go home to Winterfell, but then she almost stumbled into the Red Wedding, where her brother and mother were murdered. She went to Braavos only when she felt there was no other choice. 

I don't see other Stark children becoming pycho killers who recite list of people to kill as a lullaby. Not all on her list are deserving of death.

It is obvious she is heading to the darkest path of all her siblings.

18 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Except that we know her viewpoint and why she killed Dareon. I even gave you the quote before. Women may not rule or execute in general, but so far there have always been men to do it. Arya does not know if the Stark pack exists any longer. She is a lone wolf now, acting and surviving on her own. 

She isn't a wolf but a deranged child, and Westerosi are men not wolves, dragons, stags or lions...

Quote

“You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles. I can take you to a real lion, my little friend. The prince keeps a pride in his menagerie. Would you like to share a cage with them?”

18 hours ago, Julia H. said:

As I pointed out last time, Arya does not kill anyone just because they are phyisically prevented from getting to the Wall. The boy Arry or Gendry are definitely not deserters. They have taken no vows and have not committed any crimes. They are refugees. We know that Jon would have been able to change his mind before taking the vow even though he had already lived on the Wall. But that wasn't even the situation with Yoren's group. They were captured and prevented from going to the Wall. And even in Braavos Arya briefly hopes that Dareon would take her to Eastwatch - in other words to the Wall. Dareon, however, took a vow and then admitted to desertion while on an NW mission.

She sets free Jaqen, Rorge and Bitter who survive getting burned and cut a bloody swathe through Westeros- killing of Pate, Raid on Saltpans among many crimes.

She in turn refuses to give Hound the gift of mercy - leaving him to die in agony - to her knowledge.

Trying to present Arya as a person with any sort of half-decent moral compass is ridiculous. 

Her father said this, Arya had murdered Daeron and stole his boots  not executed him - facing him with deeds for which he is sentenced for death, if she did maybe she would know he was unjustly sent to the Wall - like many others.

Quote

 

“Do you understand why I did it?”

“He was a wildling,” Bran said. “They carry off women and sell them to the Others.”

His lord father smiled. “Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night’s Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it.”

Bran had no answer for that. “King Robert has a headsman,” he said, uncertainly.

“He does,” his father admitted. “As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

“One day, Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”

 

 

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11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Again, you take Dareon's version of events at face value. I do not. Dareon has every motivation to lie about being pulled through the window. He has every reason to be dishonest with himself about whether he is guilty or not. It's called a "victim complex."

I do not. The entire problem comes from you wearing those fan-tinted glasses that makes you unable to see the situation from a neutral POV. As I said above several times, I do like Arya, and I give/gave a damn about him killing Dareon, but that does not change the fact that she shouldn't have killed him for desertion.

And you, with your own words, just admitted that there is no change he was unaware from the fact that he rsped Lord Rowan's daughter. Because he's either lying, or telling the truth, as you just pointed out and admitted above. 

I did, however, explained why I do think he didn't rape the girl, not considering his words as actual facts, but trying to find the most logical explanation, and not going into things like suspecting he's lying because he is mentally damaged or ill (this part is just hilarious).

But I decided to write a last comment on this topic, explaining you everything.

11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

The basic problem with your position, as has been repeatedly pointed out and which you have repeatedly ignored, is that there is no proof that Dareon was actually pulled through the girl's window, only his word

I am the ignorant now? Oh, my God. 

And yes, as you pointed out, there is no actual proof to prove any of the situation being the true one, but I, unlike you, am trying to figure out the most logical explanation of what happened, and not trying to protect Arya with the bullshit you're bringing up in all of your answers.

11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

When that is your only source of evidence, you have to consider the possibility that he is actually guilty.

I do, however, consider the possibility of him being guilty. The problem comes from you giving him no change of being innocent.

And ad I said above, I will give you a final explanation of my opinion, so here it is:

First thing's first, I'd like to point out the actual fact that you, and some of your friends are considering the possibility of Dareon being guilty only because Arya killed him. You can deny or ignore it, but you made this clear to everyone.

Then, there's Dareon. A lowborn singer, who at the time he was sent to the Wall was just a will-be singer, an apprentice of some dude. That means, that he likely had no access to the bedrooms of the girl. Not to mention that the section of bedrooms of such a Lord and his family if always protected with guards, so it makes sense that he entered the room trough the window. But at this ppint, we cannot assume at all that this is enough to call him innocent.

Then he said that the girl was waiting for her naked, and helped him trough the window. This simply knocks out the possibility of him raping her unintentionally, leaving behind only the chance of him telling the truth, or lying. 

But let's go further. It is said that Lord Rowan found them in the bed. We don't know how, but there are some logical explanations on how this could've happened:

-The guards might have heard the girl making noises (either because of simple sex or rape), or Dareon making noises.

-Lord Rowan luckily just wanted to visit her daughter when she was with Dareon. Tho this is not that likely, it is said that Lord Rowan found the two in the bad, that means that Dareon had a bad luck, either way.

Either way, 'justice' was served, and Dareon was sent to the Wall.

Why was he given a chance to take the Black? Even the most honorable Lord would kill the rapist of her beloved daughter. What Lord Rowan (A lord from thr Reach, where the lords don't give a single f**k about he Wall) did instead? Sent him to the Wall. Why? I might have a logical explanation: Lord Rowan realised that the guy couldn't enter his daughter's bedroom without her help, and the guards protecting the doors. Yet, her daughter called it a rape, and he felt like he can't (or doesn't want to) insult his daughter with not believing her, but wants to save the guy. So he gave the chance of Dareon taking the Black. This way, he satisfied his daughter, and saved the boy's life too.

Then: Dareon's 'true' story gets revealed among his friends. Why would he lie? Explain me. At that point, Jon Snow, and everyone else accepted that criminals can be better men that knights (Ser Alliser). Why would he have to lie? He had no reason. Neither he tried to wash his name clear all the time, it just slipped out of his mouth when he was emotional. But you completely ignore that.

Then comes his desertion. Before, he was shown as a decent guy,.who wasn't lucky, a little bit simple-minded too, but not dumb, or anything like that. But he deserted. Why? Because he was the pure incarnation of evil? Not likely. Likelier he felt that life was nowhere near good to him, that he shouldn't have been at thr Wall at all, and decided to desert. I'm not saying it was a fair move. I think Dareon is just simply a guy, who's bad luck led him down the right way. 

So here are the two variations of the story:

1) He raped the girl: So he somehow made into the girl's bedchamber to rape her, and made it as far to even have sex with him, without the girl being able to escape or warn anyone. But what did he plan to do then? Cut the girl's throat? If not, he simply gets captured. You can even assume that he was about to kill her (I can expect that from you), but that's simply not possible, for the obvious reason that Dareon isn't shown as that type of a guy. Sither way, he ends up at the Wall, and is lying to everyone for no reason, then he lies to Sam to in Braavos, while he's drunk and does not matter at all if he's a rapist or not.

2) Dareon was a goodlooking guy. If he wasn't, that would've ruled out the chance of the girl inviting him into her bed. But he is goodlooking. Then: Face the fact already that Dareon was likely unable to enter her room without her help. Then: face the fact that a simple-minded, lowborn but handsome guy could get many lowborn girls, he doesn't have to risk his own life with raping the daughter of the lord that fed him. Then: Face the fact that even Dareon, a simple-minded guy knew that once he rapes the girl, he has to run, and can't outrun dogs and horses, considering that he even has the leave the room somehow. Unless she kills the girl, but that still guarantees nothing, if someone hears a noice and finds him there. He gets sent to the Wall, where he tells what happened to him when he's emotionally high. He's shown as a decent guy, until the point he abandones Sam and Aemon. While drunk (and this is an actual fact, look after it if you don't believe me), people are more honest, don't feel the need of lying. It actually makes sense to abandon the Watch due to him getting sent there unjustly. But you will ignore this for the 1000th time too. Do it. 

I'm not saying he had the right to desert, as I said above, he went down the right path because life wasn't fair to him.

I am not saying this is what happened, however. I just wrote you down the two possibilities that can be filled into our story.

You can decide what you believe, I do believe the second version is much likelier and makes several times more sense than your 'theories' that came into your mind the moment your older one is proven to.be impossible. That's what I call desperately trying to ignore the truth. 

Peace to you.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Well I guess than the Wildlings aren't men, since they spent thousand of years mostly under Stark rule - her father included, in hampering them.

I don't see other Stark children becoming pycho killers who recite list of people to kill as a lullaby. Not all on her list are deserving of death.

It is obvious she is heading to the darkest path of all her siblings.

She isn't a wolf but a deranged child, and Westerosi are men not wolves, dragons, stags or lions...

She sets free Jaqen, Rorge and Bitter who survive getting burned and cut a bloody swathe through Westeros- killing of Pate, Raid on Saltpans among many crimes.

She in turn refuses to give Hound the gift of mercy - leaving him to die in agony - to her knowledge.

Trying to present Arya as a person with any sort of half-decent moral compass is ridiculous. 

Her father said this, Arya had murdered Daeron and stole his boots  not executed him - facing him with deeds for which he is sentenced for death, if she did maybe she would know he was unjustly sent to the Wall - like many others.

 

She was motivated by sympathy to save the three men from burning.  That’s not a bad act.  She hated the Hound for what he did to Mycah.  She was the only one present to see the boy as a human being (Sansa was only concerned about his stench).

So yes, she does have a moral compass, skewed and warped by circumstances though it is.  Martin compares her to child soldiers.  One generally views child soldiers with sympathy, not condemnation.

She is on a dark path.  Will she get off it?  I don’t know, but all the protagonists are on dark paths.  I like Dany, but she possesses a cruel streak.  Jon has a temper, and if he comes back, will likely be more brutal.  Sansa is being made into LF’s accomplice.    Bran is mind-raping Hodor, an “obscenity” , according to the author.  And Tyrion is almost a monster.

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Killing the Tickler was a fist-pumping moment, and 100% justified.

And, I wouldn’t want to be in the power of Hoat, either.

I'm not saying she wasn't justified in killing the Tickler, I just wanted to point out that in this particular case she also enjoyed inflicting pain, meaning sadistic behavior, rather than just kill him.

I don't find that all that bad since it is, overall, a life-or-death situation and she has a lot of justified baggage to deal with. But I wanted to point out that Arya does not just enjoy clean deaths. But we can say she prefers those.

We can all agree that Arya is right that it would be bad in Hoat's service. But this does in no way justify the murder of an innnocent Northman. And it also doesn't justify dragging Hot Pie and Gendry into something that could result in their cruel deaths. They are lucky that Roose doesn't catch them.

Arya could and should have found other ways to leave Harrenhal. Her doing that by way of murder is wrong. It could have been justified if she were actually imprisoned or threatened with death ... but that just wasn't the case.

The folks at Harrenhal end up in a very bad place because Gregor Clegane takes the castle, exacting revenge because of the loss of Jaime Lannister's hand. That is when things really get fucked up there.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

She was motivated by sympathy to save the three men from burning.  That’s not a bad act.  She hated the Hound for what he did to Mycah.  She was the only one present to see the boy as a human being (Sansa was only concerned about his stench).

Jaqen should have gone to the Wall. He was as much a deserter as Dareon. But Arya bonded with Jaqen while murdering Dareon. Those are pretty much double standards.

And if you look at the Dareon murder then I guess the fact that the boy deserted and Arya is 'executing him' isn't the actual motivation there on her part - but rather that he threw away something she wants. She wants to be at the Wall with the last remnant of her family - and this guy had that and threw that away. She couldn't let that slide.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

So yes, she does have a moral compass, skewed and warped by circumstances though it is.  Martin compares her to child soldiers.  One generally views child soldiers with sympathy, not condemnation.

Up to the point where she joins the Faceless Men - sure. There you can have sympathy for her to a point. She usually is thrown into dangerous situations and makes the best of it ... but that's clearly no longer the case in Braavos.

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6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I do not. The entire problem comes from you wearing those fan-tinted glasses that makes you unable to see the situation from a neutral POV. As I said above several times, I do like Arya, and I give/gave a damn about him killing Dareon, but that does not change the fact that she shouldn't have killed him for desertion.

And you, with your own words, just admitted that there is no change he was unaware from the fact that he rsped Lord Rowan's daughter. Because he's either lying, or telling the truth, as you just pointed out and admitted above. 

I did, however, explained why I do think he didn't rape the girl, not considering his words as actual facts, but trying to find the most logical explanation, and not going into things like suspecting he's lying because he is mentally damaged or ill (this part is just hilarious).

But I decided to write a last comment on this topic, explaining you everything.

I am the ignorant now? Oh, my God. 

And yes, as you pointed out, there is no actual proof to prove any of the situation being the true one, but I, unlike you, am trying to figure out the most logical explanation of what happened, and not trying to protect Arya with the bullshit you're bringing up in all of your answers.

I do, however, consider the possibility of him being guilty. The problem comes from you giving him no change of being innocent.

And ad I said above, I will give you a final explanation of my opinion, so here it is:

First thing's first, I'd like to point out the actual fact that you, and some of your friends are considering the possibility of Dareon being guilty only because Arya killed him. You can deny or ignore it, but you made this clear to everyone.

Then, there's Dareon. A lowborn singer, who at the time he was sent to the Wall was just a will-be singer, an apprentice of some dude. That means, that he likely had no access to the bedrooms of the girl. Not to mention that the section of bedrooms of such a Lord and his family if always protected with guards, so it makes sense that he entered the room trough the window. But at this ppint, we cannot assume at all that this is enough to call him innocent.

Then he said that the girl was waiting for her naked, and helped him trough the window. This simply knocks out the possibility of him raping her unintentionally, leaving behind only the chance of him telling the truth, or lying. 

But let's go further. It is said that Lord Rowan found them in the bed. We don't know how, but there are some logical explanations on how this could've happened:

-The guards might have heard the girl making noises (either because of simple sex or rape), or Dareon making noises.

-Lord Rowan luckily just wanted to visit her daughter when she was with Dareon. Tho this is not that likely, it is said that Lord Rowan found the two in the bad, that means that Dareon had a bad luck, either way.

Either way, 'justice' was served, and Dareon was sent to the Wall.

Why was he given a chance to take the Black? Even the most honorable Lord would kill the rapist of her beloved daughter. What Lord Rowan (A lord from thr Reach, where the lords don't give a single f**k about he Wall) did instead? Sent him to the Wall. Why? I might have a logical explanation: Lord Rowan realised that the guy couldn't enter his daughter's bedroom without her help, and the guards protecting the doors. Yet, her daughter called it a rape, and he felt like he can't (or doesn't want to) insult his daughter with not believing her, but wants to save the guy. So he gave the chance of Dareon taking the Black. This way, he satisfied his daughter, and saved the boy's life too.

Then: Dareon's 'true' story gets revealed among his friends. Why would he lie? Explain me. At that point, Jon Snow, and everyone else accepted that criminals can be better men that knights (Ser Alliser). Why would he have to lie? He had no reason. Neither he tried to wash his name clear all the time, it just slipped out of his mouth when he was emotional. But you completely ignore that.

Then comes his desertion. Before, he was shown as a decent guy,.who wasn't lucky, a little bit simple-minded too, but not dumb, or anything like that. But he deserted. Why? Because he was the pure incarnation of evil? Not likely. Likelier he felt that life was nowhere near good to him, that he shouldn't have been at thr Wall at all, and decided to desert. I'm not saying it was a fair move. I think Dareon is just simply a guy, who's bad luck led him down the right way. 

So here are the two variations of the story:

1) He raped the girl: So he somehow made into the girl's bedchamber to rape her, and made it as far to even have sex with him, without the girl being able to escape or warn anyone. But what did he plan to do then? Cut the girl's throat? If not, he simply gets captured. You can even assume that he was about to kill her (I can expect that from you), but that's simply not possible, for the obvious reason that Dareon isn't shown as that type of a guy. Sither way, he ends up at the Wall, and is lying to everyone for no reason, then he lies to Sam to in Braavos, while he's drunk and does not matter at all if he's a rapist or not.

2) Dareon was a goodlooking guy. If he wasn't, that would've ruled out the chance of the girl inviting him into her bed. But he is goodlooking. Then: Face the fact already that Dareon was likely unable to enter her room without her help. Then: face the fact that a simple-minded, lowborn but handsome guy could get many lowborn girls, he doesn't have to risk his own life with raping the daughter of the lord that fed him. Then: Face the fact that even Dareon, a simple-minded guy knew that once he rapes the girl, he has to run, and can't outrun dogs and horses, considering that he even has the leave the room somehow. Unless she kills the girl, but that still guarantees nothing, if someone hears a noice and finds him there. He gets sent to the Wall, where he tells what happened to him when he's emotionally high. He's shown as a decent guy, until the point he abandones Sam and Aemon. While drunk (and this is an actual fact, look after it if you don't believe me), people are more honest, don't feel the need of lying. It actually makes sense to abandon the Watch due to him getting sent there unjustly. But you will ignore this for the 1000th time too. Do it. 

I'm not saying he had the right to desert, as I said above, he went down the right path because life wasn't fair to him.

I am not saying this is what happened, however. I just wrote you down the two possibilities that can be filled into our story.

You can decide what you believe, I do believe the second version is much likelier and makes several times more sense than your 'theories' that came into your mind the moment your older one is proven to.be impossible. That's what I call desperately trying to ignore the truth. 

Peace to you.

I did make clear, several times, that I agree with you about Arya. She should not have killed Dareon. So no. I am not looking at this through fan tinted glasses. I would appreciate it if you actually read my comments instead of projecting what you think my argument is onto me.

So here is my argument, stated plainly. Dareon might be guilty of rape, or he might be innocent. We do not know the truth of that. It is ambigous. That has been my argument from the beginning, based on the fact that we only have Dareon's version of events to go on.

And rapists lie all the time about commiting rape. They even lie to themselves about it. Why is it so hard for you to imagine that might be the case here? I wonder where it is exactly that you think I called Dareon mentally ill? Because I never did. I said he might have a victim complex, which could well be true.

So I will say this exactly one more time. It is ambigous. We do not know if Dareon commited rape or not. It is just as logical to suspect he's not being completely honest as it is to believe otherwise. And no, being drunk doesn't mean anything. Self delusion is a thing. George R. R. Martin likes his characters to be realistic people. And people are complicated. You are trying to invent a simple solution here where one likely doesn't exist.

I say it is possible Dareon commited the crime that sent him to the Wall. I do not say he absolutely did. And I do not say Arya was right to murder Dareon.

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On 2/3/2021 at 7:48 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So you say. What actual proof is there to it. Is she ever delusional? Does she black out? Does she have split personality disorder? Does she lack empathy? What action of hers makes you say she lost her sanity?

Or did you just pull that out of the well of thought?

The proof have been there all along.  You are just refusing to see it.  A list of people to kill.  Signing up in the cult of killers.  Pretending to be a hooker and luring a man to her chambers to kill him.  Coldly poisoning an old man who was not a threat to her.  All those are proof that Arya is mentally and emotionally damaged.  Her fans can dream up all kinds of excuses for her unusually violent behavior but there is no doubt that Arya Stark is insane.

Edited by Rondo

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7 hours ago, Rondo said:

The proof have been there all along.  You are just refusing to see it.  A list of people to kill.  Signing up in the cult of killers.  Pretending to be a hooker and luring a man to her chambers to kill him.  Coldly poisoning an old man who was not a threat to her.  All those are proof that Arya is mentally and emotionally damaged.  Her fans can dream up all kinds of excuses for her unusually violent behavior but there is no doubt that Arya Stark is insane.

I don't think so. You can't put real world diagnoses in a magical world like Westeros. Arya is suffering from wolf blood, and a heavy dose of destiny - possibly her gods are with her too. But when the magical crisis is past, I'm pretty sure the heroes will find their normal human selves again.

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Arya is not a hero.  She's a villain with point of view chapters.  

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't think so. You can't put real world diagnoses in a magical world like Westeros. Arya is suffering from wolf blood, and a heavy dose of destiny - possibly her gods are with her too. But when the magical crisis is past, I'm pretty sure the heroes will find their normal human selves again.

 

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Dareon had no reason to lie.  Any crime would have been forgiven.  What a man did in his previous life are forgiven.  He was an innocent.

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