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The Lord of the Crossing

Dareon was a victim of Arya's brand of "justice"

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16 hours ago, Rondo said:

There is another topic thread about whether Arya is a psycho or not.  It received a lot of replies and just as heated.  This interview should put that question to rest as well.  She is a psychopath.  

The interview that includes George joking about being a "dwarf" and "a hot girl?" Yeah. I think you guys should just own up to the fact that this video hardly amounts to a so-spake Martin and leave it at that.

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8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Nope, as no one so far has provided textual support. You all just ignore the request over and over and come back to repeat the same line and then disappear.

Things wouldn't be so heated (at least in my part) if you where actually arguing in good faith. But you don't, you just come here, repeat the same affirmation and then go away, ignoring any reply that argues with you. If you think Arya's a psycho fine, I don't think she is, but she certainly isn't well, so there's a debate to be made, if you want to discuss it in the internet, also fine, do it. But don't just come here, say she's a psycho like you know the definite truth without providing  any support and then disappear, ignoring anyone who challenges your views. That's not debating, arguing nor discussing, hell, it could be said that it isn't even conversing. It's just being narrow-minded and failing to defend your ideas. 

To be fair, Lord Varys made a serious attempt at showing her to be a psychopath upthread (posts 159 and 164 on pages 8 and 9).  

I happen to vigorously disagree with LV's assessment, but he at least makes a serious attempt,  citing scenes from the book.

Of course, LV isn't a Stark-hater like the others.  Those don't seem to be willing to bother with anything like evidence.

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On 1/31/2021 at 5:51 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

:agree:

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On 2/23/2021 at 10:40 AM, Crona said:

It’s in the text that she is losing her empathy 

She could feel the hole inside her every morning when she woke. It wasn't hunger, though sometimes there was that too. It was a hollow place, an emptiness where her heart had been, where her brothers had lived, and her parents. Her head hurt too. Not as bad as it had at first, but still pretty bad. Arya was used to that, though, and at least the lump was going down. But the hole inside her stayed the same. The hole will never feel any better, she told herself when she went to sleep. ASOS

That night after supper, Arya went back to her cell and took off her robe and whispered her names, but sleep refused to take her. She tossed on her mattress stuffed like best futons for everyday sleeping with rags, gnawing on her lip. She could feel the hole inside her where her heart had been. AFFC

 

Psychopathy is a personality disorder characterized by a lack of empathy and remorse, shallow affect, glibness, manipulation and callousness.

What you saying is not like what was your point. You disapprove your point by this.

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3 hours ago, Katie Castillo said:

What you saying is not like what was your point. You disapprove your point by this.

Yeah it was a pretty stupid post by Crona like literally the entire scene is about someone feeling extreme grief and falling into the lowest of depressions.

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Dareon was a victim of Northern and Westerosi justice. Arya, like Ned, Robb, Jon etc., happens to be a product of that society and her execution of Dareon is an example of the values instilled in her. She is pro-execution and anti-Nights Watch deserter, like the majority of her countrymen. That combined with her trauma over seeing so much injustice go unpunished has led to her taking justice, as she was taught, into her own hands.

It's honestly baffling how this isn't understood as part of the universe of the novels. Ned Stark cuts off the head of a deserter who was telling him the truth about the Others and his mental state is not in question. Military leaders and soldiers participate in murder against innocent people and their mental states aren't questioned. Stannis burns people because a witch told him to and he's regarded as the second coming of Christ while his mental state isn't questioned. Jaime solves every problem with murder, attempted murder, or the threat of murder and he's a wonderfully redeemed man with no mental conditions.

Yet, Arya upholding the values of her culture by killing people who broke the law is the end of the world? This repeated argument requires ignoring 99.9999% of these novels. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Wintersshewolf said:

Dareon was a victim of Northern and Westerosi justice. Arya, like Ned, Robb, Jon etc., happens to be a product of that society and her execution of Dareon is an example of the values instilled in her. She is pro-execution and anti-Nights Watch deserter, like the majority of her countrymen. That combined with her trauma over seeing so much injustice go unpunished has led to her taking justice, as she was taught, into her own hands

Allow me to ask who the fuck gave Arya Stark the right to execute people? To an 11 year old girl! Noone. She wasn't named to serve justice. It's not up to her to do it. Would you be allowed to put to death a murderer? No. Not in your country, and especially not in a foreign one.

The problem is that if someone finds a NW deserter, the guy is given to the local authority. And by what right a murderer judges a deserter? 

7 hours ago, Wintersshewolf said:

It's honestly baffling how this isn't understood as part of the universe of the novels. Ned Stark cuts off the head of a deserter who was telling him the truth about the Others and his mental state is not in question. Military leaders and soldiers participate in murder against innocent people and their mental states aren't questioned. Stannis burns people because a witch told him to and he's regarded as the second coming of Christ while his mental state isn't questioned. Jaime solves every problem with murder, attempted murder, or the threat of murder and he's a wonderfully redeemed man with no mental conditions.

Ned Stark and Jaime Lannister aren't 11 year old girls, and they are most of the time have a 'right' or purpose of killing others. Jaime fucking Lannister (who did terrible and great things as well) doesn't kill any man he thinks deserves it the moment he sees one. Don't even try to compare Arya's case to an execution.

And I said it once, I'm gonna say it a second time: Even the FM aren't as amoral as Arya was in this case. They kill people for a purpose. It's money, but it's a purpose. They benefit from those murders. Did Arya benefit from killing Dareon? Nope. Not at all. On a moral comparisom, this is like being a sellsword (altough being a sellsword is just as amoral as being an assasin, the sellsword job has more honor than this). 

7 hours ago, Wintersshewolf said:

Yet, Arya upholding the values of her culture by killing people who broke the law is the end of the world? This repeated argument requires ignoring 99.9999% of these novels. 

So murdering someone is allowed by the law? In Braavos, the Braavosi laws apply on everyone, and Dareon did nothing he could be executed or murdered for rightfully in Braavos. 

The hilarious part of this thread is how we are unable to accept that our favourite characters sometimes do mistake, and we are able to go as far as justifying a murder. Just like in Tyrion's case. And don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with Tyrion and Arya, the darker part of their personality showing up is part of their arc/story. Maybe I should claim here that Daemon Targaryen (one of my favourite Targaryens) died a virgin and prayed 5 times a day. Wouldn't it be meaningless? Yet people go as far as suggesting that Dareon unintentionally raped Lord Rowan's daughter when logic rules out the possibility of Dareon simply raping her. Not to mention making the victim's characteristics the thing that justifies this murder from their pov. What would Ned Stark think of her if he'd know what Arya is doing in Braavos? And don't get me wrong, I do like Arya in general, because being grey doesn't rule out for me liking a character, and Arya's story is interesting because it's darker than usual POVs are. We have radical people on both sides. Saying she's a psycho or that nothing's wrong with what she's doing are the two edges of categorizing her, honestly.

And I don't get why we can't let such threads dissapearing.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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I'll be honest. I stopped at:

Quote

Would you be allowed to put to death a murderer? No. Not in your country, and especially not in a foreign one.

This is the crux of almost every debate I see on this series. People make the mistake of applying modern values onto this medieval society. That requires ignoring the novels completely. We are talking about ASOIAF not my country or any other.

Quote

Allow me to ask who the fuck gave Arya Stark the right to execute people? To an 11 year old girl! Noone. She wasn't named to serve justice. It's not up to her to do it.

I'm guessing your stance is going for a "If the character has the legal right to commit murder then it's OK" argument since you're focusing on what gives Arya the "right" to execute criminals. *sigh* By that logic, Joffrey, Tywin, and anyone employed by them (Boltons and Freys incuded) have the right to commit all the murder and rape they want because they're the legal king and Hand. By that same logic, Robb and Stannis are completely wrong in all they do because they don't have the "right". And that's why this stance makes no sense.

As far as Arya goes, I never spoke of her "right" to do this. I spoke of her motivation which is in line with the values of her culture, especially since there is no true justice to be found in her war torn country right now. If Jon, Robb, or Ned found Dareon in the same circumstances, his head would have rolled.

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18 minutes ago, Wintersshewolf said:

I'll be honest. I stopped at:

This is the crux of almost every debate I see on this series. People make the mistake of applying modern values onto this medieval society. That requires ignoring the novels completely. We are talking about ASOIAF not my country or any other.

I'm guessing your stance is going for a "If the character has the legal right to commit murder then it's OK" argument since you're focusing on what gives Arya the "right" to execute criminals. *sigh* By that logic, Joffrey, Tywin, and anyone employed by them (Boltons and Freys incuded) have the right to commit all the murder and rape they want because they're the legal king and Hand. By that same logic, Robb and Stannis are completely wrong in all they do because they don't have the "right". And that's why this stance makes no sense.

As far as Arya goes, I never spoke of her "right" to do this. I spoke of her motivation which is in line with the values of her culture, especially since there is no true justice to be found in her war torn country right now. If Jon, Robb, or Ned found Dareon in the same circumstances, his head would have rolled.

Well written.  In this culture, pretty much anyone with a weapon is expected to enforce their codes of honour.  At least, that's what Arya has been raised to believe.  Very little that we consider to be law or jurisprudence exists in this world.

Does that make Arya's action right?  No, I don't think Daeron deserved summary execution.  But, it makes her action understandable.  It doesn't make her a little monster.

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1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So murdering someone is allowed by the law? In Braavos, the Braavosi laws apply on everyone, and Dareon did nothing he could be executed or murdered for rightfully in Braavos.

Actually we do not know anything about Braavosi laws or how those laws are enforced. But considering that there are dudes who walk around armed and fight duels without anyone trying to stop those duels almost certainly means that those laws are not enforced unless interests or lives of VIPs are under threat. Besides when Dareon left Men in Black he became outlaw. So almost certainly local government almost certainly did not care what happened to him. 

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On 1/31/2021 at 10:22 AM, Rondo said:

Please ignore this.

On 1/31/2021 at 1:09 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Finally, my argument is not meant to clear Arya's hands. Arya is beside the point. She did not kill Dareon because he might have raped someone, she killed Dareon because he admitted to abandoning the Night's Watch, which is a crime that is punishable by execution in her culture. You could argue that she did not have the authority to kill him. She didn't. But not that she had no reason to. She did. It seems rather that you are trying to clear his name in order to make his murder at Arya's hands wrong, which I think it was in any case. That still does not mean we should let him off the hook for potentially raping someone.

Arya knows nothing about his past, she doesn't care about his poor, poor past. She kills him because he openly admits to leaving the Night's Watch. 

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Posted (edited)

Stupid thing won't edit. I think Dareon should've been executed by somebody with some authority, not some crazy 11 year old girl. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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4 hours ago, Wintersshewolf said:

I'll be honest. I stopped at:

This is the crux of almost every debate I see on this series. People make the mistake of applying modern values onto this medieval society. That requires ignoring the novels completely. We are talking about ASOIAF not my country or any other.

I'm guessing your stance is going for a "If the character has the legal right to commit murder then it's OK" argument since you're focusing on what gives Arya the "right" to execute criminals. *sigh* By that logic, Joffrey, Tywin, and anyone employed by them (Boltons and Freys incuded) have the right to commit all the murder and rape they want because they're the legal king and Hand. By that same logic, Robb and Stannis are completely wrong in all they do because they don't have the "right". And that's why this stance makes no sense.

As far as Arya goes, I never spoke of her "right" to do this. I spoke of her motivation which is in line with the values of her culture, especially since there is no true justice to be found in her war torn country right now. If Jon, Robb, or Ned found Dareon in the same circumstances, his head would have rolled.

Alright, then don't apply modern values on Arya. But I'll ask again: What would her own father think of her if he'd see her doing her things in Braavos? These aren't modern values, these are her own father's.

And no, I wasn't saying that the bad things the worse characters did was rightful. That's why I used two words: right and purpose. Of course you chose to be offended instead of rereading my reply.

And I don't like saying it because it really sounds bad, but even Roose Bolton betrayed Robb Stark for a reason, because he benefited from his death. Arya, on the other hand murdered Dareon for the sake of nothing, achieving nothing, without any purpose or right to do such a thing. And that's why it's an amoral thing.Because he killed for the sake of murder/bloodshed. Yea, you can tell me that "murdering someone reminded her of her home", but that doesn't sound right, does it? 

On the other hand, I was focusing on Arya's right of murdering Dareon because you called a murder an execution.

If some people do really like this character, then they should open their eyes and start accepting that this is something Arya has to leave behind, and it's not a positive trait to be a vigilante.

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3 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Actually we do not know anything about Braavosi laws or how those laws are enforced. But considering that there are dudes who walk around armed and fight duels without anyone trying to stop those duels almost certainly means that those laws are not enforced unless interests or lives of VIPs are under threat. Besides when Dareon left Men in Black he became outlaw. So almost certainly local government almost certainly did not care what happened to him. 

Actually, we do. In Braavos, NW desertion is not a crime. So in Braavos he's not an outlaw.

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13 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Actually, we do. In Braavos, NW desertion is not a crime. So in Braavos he's not an outlaw.

But if some bravo had killed Dareon for some reason that manslaughter would have been totally legal. So Braavos was not really safe city for him. Or I suspect that local government do not really care about what happens to nobodies like late D.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

But if some bravo had killed Dareon for some reason that manslaughter would have been totally legal. So Braavos was not really safe city for him. Or I suspect that local government do not really care about what happens to nobodies like late D.

Not true. In Braavos, everyone who wears a sword can be challenged for a duel. From dusk til dawn. That does not mean people are free to kill anyone they would like to. They can kill someone in a duel, but only in a duel. And duels don't have to end in the death of a participant. The people who regularly practice this are the bravos. They regularly have colorful clothes, and have a sword, and intentionally are going out for a fight or not. But everyone in Braavos who has a sword can be challenged. We don't know if the challenged one has to accept the challenge or not, but the ones without a weapon are easily dismissed by bravos, as we are told.

Either way, murder is murder in Braavos too. Killing someone in a duel isn't against the law, however. Dareon wielded no sword on his side. He was whoring and singing. And you can say that noone gave a damn about Dareon's death, and you're probably right. This applies on every major city tho, where people don't give a damn about other's death. Also bravos, to evade suspicion, are always wandering around in pairs, so they'll have witnesses if it comes to a duel and they kill someone in action.

Getting back to Dareon here: In Westeros, he's a criminal. In Braavos he is not. That's how things work. Westerosi laws apply only in Westeros, nowhere else. Surely, the founders of Braavos did not think of themselves as outlaws for escaping from slavery. They created their own government with their own laws, where (for example) slavery is illegal, altough it is not in other Free Cities.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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On 3/26/2021 at 3:32 AM, Wintersshewolf said:

Yet, Arya upholding the values of her culture by killing people who broke the law is the end of the world? 

No, the values of Arya's culture have the Lord or Lady of the land the deserter was captured on sentence the person to die and then behead them.   Arya doesn't have the authority to execute a deserter AND SHE KNOWS THAT.  She didn't deliver the king's justice, she was just angry that Jon was at the Wall and this guy was enjoying his life, free of the responsibility of the Night's Watch, got angry and killed him.  That's murder in Westeros.   

And she wasn't even in Westeros anymore; she was in Braavos, a whole other country.  Arya is mentally ill, I grant you that, but her culture wasn't the driver of her committing murder.  

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Dareon was absolutely a victim of Arya's justice. Yet, not undeserved. 

Almost all you have to read to understand Arya happens in the first few chapters.

Arya's thoughts on a NW deserter is the same as Ned, Robb, Jon and Bran from Chapter 1, while she wasn't at the NW brothers execution, it is exactly how she would view betraying your vows. 

For her, honour, loyalty, authority, truth and doing what is right is all rolled up into one with the Stark family values.

Only a few chapters later, a hard truth is shown to her with "the butchers boy" incident. This event divorces authority from the rest of it, as she witnesses how Joffrey(Cersei) manipulates the situation with the killing of Lady and the butchers boy. She now knows the authority is not to be trusted(Sansa took a lot longer to figure this out). The rest of her story continues on this track, to the point where the "authorities" are hunting her.

From this point she sees her family get torn apart, beheaded, and attacked(even at a wedding). All of this is done right before her eyes. 

So by the time Dareon crosses paths with her, she gives herself the authority to do what is right, with no fucks to give what other people think. In her mind it is Justice. The moral authority of the Starks is unique from her perspective, and she needs no permission from anyone to dish it out. She knows what is right.

She has become more ruthless than any other Stark due to her circumstances. (If only Dead Ned was a little more ruthless, he would be a Regent and Lord Protector). 

Her justice will not end with Dareon. 

I don't think she is crazy at all She displays psychopathic tendencies to be sure, lack of emotions, which it understandable due to all the trauma she has witnessed. She is cold and calculating and pursued training as an assassin. She is dangerous. Anyone who she deems to have wronged the Starks are in trouble.

I CAN'T WAIT.

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