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The Lord of the Crossing

Dareon was a victim of Arya's brand of "justice"

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15 hours ago, Julia H. said:

About Dareon and Lord Rowan's daughter:

He said it wasn't rape. The girl, however, called it rape. Should we automatically assume that her statement must have been a lie just because we hear the story from Dareon? GRRM has played enough tricks on his readers to make us careful when we read a character's subjective account of a story. In any case, even if the girl was willing, Dareon had no business being in a highborn girl's bed. He disregarded a social barrier and harmed Lord Rowan's family. It was an irresponsible action, very likely to end in disaster for one or both of them. 

Should word of a highborn worth more than word of smallfolk?

I would give him a benefit of the doubt, based on the way how he was described:

Quote

Dareon had not been much of a swordsman, Sam knew from their days training under Alliser Thorne, but he had a beautiful voice. "Honey poured over thunder," Maester Aemon had once called it. He played woodharp and fiddle too, and even wrote his own songs . . . though Sam did not think them very good.

...

Fair-haired and hazel-eyed, the handsome young singer out of Eastwatch looked more like some dark prince than a black brother.

Additionally Highborn have no issue of taking their subjects to beds, some even against their will: right of first night, Aegon IV - "Wash Her and Bring Her to My Bed" and Daenerys with her handmaids for example.  I don't recall that three grooms caught with Amerei Frey were sentenced to similar fate.

Lord Rowan family should worry more about supporting two Usurpers than poor Daeron.

On the other note  can people that Martin is pretty horrible toward the singers, Daeron, Marillion, Blue Bard, Symon Silver-Tongue...

Edited by Eltharion21

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We're not in the modern Western world anymore.  We're in Westeros.  And in Westeros, commoners do not have sex with noble girls.  Period.  Dareon is either a rapist, looking for trouble, or a total fucking idiot.  GRRM once commented that Westeros has "a rigid class structure, and that class structure has teeth."   And those teeth took out a piece of Dareon.  He's lucky he's still alive with all his pieces.  Stupid dumbass. 

In Braavos, he betrayed and abandoned Sam, who Arya liked, and betrayed by extension her brother.  Not only that, he was an utterly arrogant prick about it, living the high life and having a good time.  I think his attitude got him killed as much as the fact of his desertion.

I regard the murder of Dareon as Arya's worst act.  Even so, I can't get too upset about it.  He's not exactly undeserving of it.  As for Arya,  I think of her as a troubled child, traumatized by her wartime experiences.  She is not deranged, psychopathic, or evil, though I do worry about her future, and the FM aren't helping at this point.

 

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1 minute ago, Eltharion21 said:

Should word of a highborn worth more than word of smallfolk?

I would give him a benefit of the doubt, based on the way how he was described:

The benefit of the doubt, yes. That is why I said "if the girl was willing". But the girl also deserves the benefit of the doubt - we don't know her version of the story, only that it was different from his. As for his looks... I don't know, just because a man is handsome, it does not mean a girl is necessarily eager to bed him. It could mean that she was, of course, but it can also mean that he is used to getting all the girls he wants and assumes that deep down all of them are equally willing, even the ones who pretend not to be so.

1 minute ago, Eltharion21 said:

Additionally Highborn have no issue of taking their subjects to beds, some even against their will: right of first night, Aegon IV - Wash Her and Bring Her to My Bed' and Daenerys with her handmaids.  I don't recall that three grooms caught with Amerei Frey were sentenced to similar fate.

Lord Rowan family should worry more about supporting two Usurpers than poor Daeron.

There is no equality in this world. A lord, let alone a king, can easily exploit his subjects' position usually with impunity, which is wrong, unethical and unjust. That does not mean it is OK if a lowborn man rapes a higborn girl, who is not responsible for the injustice done by others. Besides, be it rape or seduction or a totally consensual affair, he should know that he is taking a serious risk - if he is caught - and if he is not caught, he can still put the girl at risk of pregnancy and a ruined future. The fact is that in this world not only the lowborn classes are at the mercy of the highborn classes but very often women are also at the mercy of men, and that includes highborn women as well. He was probably taking all that risk for a bit of fun, not out of true love. It was totally irresponsible, and if he coerced the girl in any way, it was much worse.

Did he deserve to be sent to the Wall for that? In my eyes, it would depend on how it actually happened, which we don't know. But he lived in this world and knew the rules. And let's face it, he proved to be equally irresponsible in Braavos, too. Once again, he chose fun over responsibility, not caring what consequences his actions may have for others. Once again, the consequences hit him. Did he deserve to die for that? It is a difficult question, but in that world, that was the usual punishment for what he did. He should have learnt from his previous mistake.

I have no idea what happend to the three grooms caught with Amerei Frey. A responsible father should do something about such a situation because his daughter's future may be jeopardized. 

1 minute ago, Eltharion21 said:

On the other note  can people that Martin is pretty horrible toward the singers, Daeron, Marillion, Blue Bard,  Symon Silver-Tongue...

Yes, singers tend to have a terrible fate in this world. Perhaps it has some underlying significance, given the title of the series. We are also told that "a bard's truth is different than yours or mine". 

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1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Should word of a highborn worth more than word of smallfolk?

I would give him a benefit of the doubt, based on the way how he was described:

Additionally Highborn have no issue of taking their subjects to beds, some even against their will: right of first night, Aegon IV - "Wash Her and Bring Her to My Bed" and Daenerys with her handmaids for example.  I don't recall that three grooms caught with Amerei Frey were sentenced to similar fate.

Lord Rowan family should worry more about supporting two Usurpers than poor Daeron.

On the other note  can people that Martin is pretty horrible toward the singers, Daeron, Marillion, Blue Bard, Symon Silver-Tongue...

I remember seeing something about a few girls GRRM liked dating musicians instead of him when he was in High School & college, maybe it's some pent up resentment

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50 minutes ago, Muffin King said:

I remember seeing something about a few girls GRRM liked dating musicians instead of him when he was in High School & college, maybe it's some pent up resentment

Calling it now, GRRM (who isn't much of a looker) is still a bit salty over good looking guys taking his girls or getting more attention from the opposite sex than him when he was in his 20's.

 

Which is why he writes so many attractive guys with conveniently highly flawed personalities and undesirable character traits. A far too disproportionate amount end up being either psychopaths, sadists, narcissists,  rapists / "entitled to women", murderers, money-hungry, greedy, cowards or a variety of the aforementioned, and unwholesome in general.

Edited by lrresistable
spelling

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48 minutes ago, lrresistable said:

Which is why he writes so many attractive guys with conveniently highly flawed personalities and undesirable character traits. A far too disproportionate amount end up being either psychopaths, sadists, narcissists,  rapists / "entitled to women", murderers, money-hungry, greedy, cowards or a variety of the aforementioned, and unwholesome in general.

I think it's more GRRM subverting the white knight trope a lot, especially given most of these guys are connected to Sansa, so given how she view the world of knights and maidens, it only makes sense for the dashing knights/princes to be that way.

But I do agree there probably is some subliminal anti good looking guys thing gong on. I mean of all the good looking guys around, the only one who is a legit good person is I think Jaime, and that's only because he's seen in the beginning as a particularly homicidal and incestuous version of Prince Charming.

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The text suggests that Dareon was innocent of the rape of Mathis Rowan's daughter. But he had no business being in her room knowing what the consequences of that would be. That said, I think that Jon Snow believed Dareon's story that he didn't rape the girl and that's the reason he chose him as his new wandering crow. Dareon gets to travel, sing, eat at lords' tables and come back to the Wall once or twice a year. 

Dareon betrayed Jon and not only abandoned Sam, but wanted Sam to abandon Maester Aemon. I think that's what it came down to for her. It doesn't make what she did right but Arya has been looking for a pack and Dareon abandoned his. 

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What disturbs me about it, less the fact that he was killed (if it was like another black brother who did it, whatever) and the fact that he was killed by Arya, who is still a child essentially. Just the idea of children being traumatized or brainwashed to the point where they can kill someone without batting an eye is one of the most disturbing things to happen in ASOIAF. 

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21 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The text suggests that Dareon was innocent of the rape of Mathis Rowan's daughter. But he had no business being in her room knowing what the consequences of that would be. That said, I think that Jon Snow believed Dareon's story that he didn't rape the girl and that's the reason he chose him as his new wandering crow. Dareon gets to travel, sing, eat at lords' tables and come back to the Wall once or twice a year. 

Dareon betrayed Jon and not only abandoned Sam, but wanted Sam to abandon Maester Aemon. I think that's what it came down to for her. It doesn't make what she did right but Arya has been looking for a pack and Dareon abandoned his. 

 

That thought about Jon thinking he was innocent and deserved a more "Comfy Crow" life crossed my mind too. Of all the youngsters in Jon's Cohort to join The Watch, I'm pretty sure only Jon, Sam & Dareon were the only ones there through no fault of their own.

Interestingly, of all of them, Jon would be the only one to join willingly since...Waymar Royce.

 

Dareon betrayed the trust & good-will Jon placed in him as well. Maybe that death was more well-deserved than i thought.

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think it's more GRRM subverting the white knight trope a lot, especially given most of these guys are connected to Sansa, so given how she view the world of knights and maidens, it only makes sense for the dashing knights/princes to be that way.

But I do agree there probably is some subliminal anti good looking guys thing gong on. I mean of all the good looking guys around, the only one who is a legit good person is I think Jaime, and that's only because he's seen in the beginning as a particularly homicidal and incestuous version of Prince Charming.

Yeah, i can only think of a couple of "good looking good guys" off the top of my head, and Jaime in particular has only slept with 1 woman so it's not like he's a player or anything.

Jaime's childhood friend Addam Marbrand might be good looking, but i don't remember him being described as handsome by anybody.

Robb Stark - who obviously gets killed.

Arys Oakheart - who obviously gets himself killed.  *still beats Sansa, laughs at Barristan's dismissal, rebels against his Monarch

Rhaegar Targaryen - who obviously gets himself killed.

Ser Daemon Sand - fate undetermined.

Jason Mallister - he's getting old now, though.

Garlan Tyrell -  likely going to get killed by Godking Greyjoy.

 

Can anyone else add to the list of good looking good guys? Balon Swann isn't described as much of a looker, unfortunately.

Edited by lrresistable
Arys Oakheart

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11 minutes ago, lrresistable said:

Can anyone else add to the list of good looking good guys?

Dickon Manwoody

He may not be a looker, but with a name like that who needs looks?

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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2 hours ago, lrresistable said:

Yeah, i can only think of a couple of "good looking good guys" off the top of my head, and Jaime in particular has only slept with 1 woman so it's not like he's a player or anything.

Jaime's childhood friend Addam Marbrand might be good looking, but i don't remember him being described as handsome by anybody.

Robb Stark - who obviously gets killed.

Arys Oakheart - who obviously gets himself killed.  *still beats Sansa, laughs at Barristan's dismissal, rebels against his Monarch

Rhaegar Targaryen - who obviously gets himself killed.

Ser Daemon Sand - fate undetermined.

Jason Mallister - he's getting old now, though.

Garlan Tyrell -  likely going to get killed by Godking Greyjoy.

 

Can anyone else add to the list of good looking good guys? Balon Swann isn't described as much of a looker, unfortunately.

Loras and Renly. Young Robert.

Edited by Julia H.

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It is completely irrelevant whether Dareon is a rapist or not - he was in Braavos when Arya murdered him, and in Braavos the laws of the Seven Kingdoms do not apply. But even in the Seven Kingdoms some Stark girl hiding her identity cannot walk around and randomly murder people. That would get her privileged highborn treatment for murder if she were caught as Arya Stark, and a noose around her neck if she was believed to be the common girl she pretends to be.

Arya's insidiousness comes from hiding who she actually is - Dareon would have been much cautious with what he said if he had known a Stark girl plotting murder was in his company.

As for the crime Dareon stood accused of:

He would have to be completely stupid to actually break into the bedchamber of Lord Rowan's daughter in Lord Rowan's own castle and rape a highborn girl. That would mean a lot of criminal energy on his part, as well as stupidity/overconfidence that he could get away with that/would not be caught.

If he wanted to have his way with a woman he would rape commoners, not the guarded daughter of a great lord. You cannot compare Dareon to Marillion, either. Marillion is the favorite of Lady Lysa, meaning he thinks he is untouchable ... and he preys on a mere bastard girl not the trueborn daughter of a great lord. But Dareon was never Lord Rowan's favorite.

In light of all that chances are very high that the Rowan girl did indeed invite Dareon into her bedchamber. Whether she actually wanted sex or not is another matter - by our standards Dareon could have still raped her, of course. But by Westerosi standards the girl would have been a slut if she invited Dareon. He is only seen as a rapist because the girl claimed she did not invite him in her chambers - not because she invited him and then changed her mind.

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17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is completely irrelevant whether Dareon is a rapist or not - he was in Braavos when Arya murdered him, and in Braavos the laws of the Seven Kingdoms do not apply. But even in the Seven Kingdoms some Stark girl hiding her identity cannot walk around and randomly murder people. That would get her privileged highborn treatment for murder if she were caught as Arya Stark, and a noose around her neck if she was believed to be the common girl she pretends to be.

Arya's insidiousness comes from hiding who she actually is - Dareon would have been much cautious with what he said if he had known a Stark girl plotting murder was in his company.

As for the crime Dareon stood accused of:

He would have to be completely stupid to actually break into the bedchamber of Lord Rowan's daughter in Lord Rowan's own castle and rape a highborn girl. That would mean a lot of criminal energy on his part, as well as stupidity/overconfidence that he could get away with that/would not be caught.

If he wanted to have his way with a woman he would rape commoners, not the guarded daughter of a great lord. You cannot compare Dareon to Marillion, either. Marillion is the favorite of Lady Lysa, meaning he thinks he is untouchable ... and he preys on a mere bastard girl not the trueborn daughter of a great lord. But Dareon was never Lord Rowan's favorite.

In light of all that chances are very high that the Rowan girl did indeed invite Dareon into her bedchamber. Whether she actually wanted sex or not is another matter - by our standards Dareon could have still raped her, of course. But by Westerosi standards the girl would have been a slut if she invited Dareon. He is only seen as a rapist because the girl claimed she did not invite him in her chambers - not because she invited him and then changed her mind.

Rowan, however, would have viewed Daeron as an animal.  From Rowan’s POV, the issue of whether his daughter consented would have been irrelevant.

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19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Rowan, however, would have viewed Daeron as an animal.  From Rowan’s POV, the issue of whether his daughter consented would have been irrelevant.

One can make that case, but I expect that if the daughter and fiercely defended Dareon, claiming he had come at her invitation and had wanted to have sex with her that he may have been spared the Wall. But then - Coryanne Wylde did have consensual sex with her stableboy, apparently, and that guy was sent to the Wall, too ... after they gelded him.

In that sense the rape definition in Westeros bottles down to 'men who touch my women without me giving consent are rapists' ... and the opinion of the woman in the matter is completely irrelevant.

However, Mathis Rowan strikes us as a pretty decent guy. I could see him not forcing Dareon to take the black if he had believed he hadn't wronged his daughter ... but then, apparently even Ned had issues with Rhaegar taking an interest in Lyanna, so chances are not that bad that Ned himself would have used Ice on Mycah if he had caught the boy deflowering Arya.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

One can make that case, but I expect that if the daughter and fiercely defended Dareon, claiming he had come at her invitation and had wanted to have sex with her that he may have been spared the Wall. But then - Coryanne Wylde did have consensual sex with her stableboy, apparently, and that guy was sent to the Wall, too ... after they gelded him.

In that sense the rape definition in Westeros bottles down to 'men who touch my women without me giving consent are rapists' ... and the opinion of the woman in the matter is completely irrelevant.

However, Mathis Rowan strikes us as a pretty decent guy. I could see him not forcing Dareon to take the black if he had believed he hadn't wronged his daughter ... but then, apparently even Ned had issues with Rhaegar taking an interest in Lyanna, so chances are not that bad that Ned himself would have used Ice on Mycah if he had caught the boy deflowering Arya.

Well, Arya was nine at the time.

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Let me make this clear.

Arguments against Dareon being a rapist:

-From the very beginning he is shown as melancholic.

-He himself tells people how he ended up on the Wall, tho noone would've gave a damn if he was a rapist.

-He even tells how bad life turned out for him, unfairly, while he is drunk (And it is an actual fact that people are likely telling the truth while drunk).

-He's been a nice guy until he abandones Sam and Aemon, when he actually realises he can get back what was taken from him unjustly. (Seriously, just imagine yourself into the same situation)

Arguments beside Dareon being a rapist:

-He's goodlooking.

-He's dumb as hell (for no reason).

-Arya killed him.

-He's handicapped, and did not realise it was a rape(????).

And why we don't believe him? Yes, because Arya killed him. For no other reason. Why do we accuse him for being a rapist? Because Arya killed him.

Congratulations, honestly. Have you people used you brain too to figure this out?

Altuogh I gave a damn about his death, Arya had no right to do such a thing. She can't just kill anyone who she wants to, because he might not know the person entirely. Even if you still consider Dareon a bad guy, what if she kills a good person next time because she thinks she has a right to do so? AND AGAIN, that's why the Kindly Man said her that she cannot kill people that way, because one day she might make a mistake (or already did). AND AGAIN, Dareon's case is nothing like those people's on her list.

 

 

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Well, Arya was nine at the time.

Oh, I did mean in general, not necessarily with her being nine years old at the time.

It seems that the decision whether you are a victim of rape or a mistress is also completely based on how the men in your family view you. The highborn Westerosi mistresses of Aegon IV were, for the most part, thrown at him by their fathers or husbands meaning that the crucial factor there is if the man in question approves of his woman's promiscuous behavior. Merry Meg's husband didn't approve, and beat her to death after she was sent back to him.

Lya could have become Rhaegar's affair or mistress or even his second wife ... if the Stark men had approved of such behavior. But they didn't, and that's what makes Rhaegar a potential rapist, not how he actually treated Lyanna.

As for Dareon's case - hopefully George is going to revisit that murder in future chapters in the same manner he did with Shae's murder (Tyrion's cruelest and most despicable act so far). It would be rather interesting to know how exactly she killed him and what she did say to him during the act. And, of course, also to know why exactly she did that and how she justifies doing it.

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On 1/31/2021 at 5:51 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

I felt sorry for Dareon.  Arya Stark is darker than most of the living person on her list.  Arya had no right to hand out sentences in Braavos.   Or anywhere for that matter.  That was murder, not an execution.  Arya has become the rabid wolf which I talked about.  She will be barking at the moon very soon. 

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