Dareon was a victim of Arya's brand of "justice"

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Feeling sorry for her and her being a murderer are not mutually exclusive. I like Arya, too, ever more so the more darker she becomes. The Mercy chapter is a master piece. That is powerful stuff. The point of the character clearly is that she is no nice girl but about to become a very competent assassin.

But trauma is no excuse for murder, especially if she kills people who are not/no longer her enemies - like Dareon. And while Raff had it coming, he, too, is lured into a trap and murdered while he is completely helpless in a context where he was no danger to Arya at all.

Killing in self-defense is one thing, doing it because you like doing it - and pursuing a career in the assassin industry as she is doing right now - can and should come with certain consequences attached to it. Like you having to pay the price for murder if you are caught. Or you being reviled by your friends and family for what you have become.

And Arya understand herself how she changes. Even back in ACoK she fears the prospect of telling her family what she did already, and that grows worse and worse along the way.

I don’t disagree with you. I do believe that killing for the false sense of justice is as bad as killing for no reason at all and I do believe that turning to murder to deal with what she doesn’t like is not a solution. When it comes to Dareon I don’t really care. He abandoned his post in a foreign land. If he had abandoned them in Westeros then I may judge him differently, I may even had been more sympathetic to him. But he chose to abandon Aemon and Sam when it was easy for him to. His innocence when it comes to Rowan’s daughter is neither here nor there for me, he abandoned his post and there is only one price to pay for that. Arya may be wrong but  for her whole life there is only one price for a Night’s Watch deserter, death. I undoubtedly tend to be more understanding for a child who feels attached to his earlier life, the only safe life he knew the only happy life he had, especially when he is on the run fighting for his life. To sum up, I don’t particularly care about Dareon on the same time I do feel sorry for Arya and while I do agree that she wasn’t right to kill him I don’t care that she did.

[Nathan Stark]

I'm not sold on whether Dareon was innocent of rape, or whether he was guilty. All I'm saying is we have no proof either way, so I find the certainty many commenters have about his innocence in the matter to be rather silly and their arguments for why he is innocent unconvincing. Especially since we only have his version of events to go on. So no, we just can't say for certain whether Dareon is actually innocent or guilty of raping Lord Rowan's daughter.

That doesn't mean Arya was right to kill him. She shouldn't have, but I understand why she did it. He openly boasted about deserting the Nights Watch, and Arya has spent her entire life being told that such men must be executed. The very first offical action we see a Stark take in this story is of a Nights Watch deserter being executed. And people still seem to agree mostly that Ned was a stand up guy. At the end of the day, Arya murdered Dareon because he was a self-confessed Nights Watch deserter who was practically gleeful about having deserted, and such men are always executed in Westeros. She had a confession, and the skill to carry out an unofficial punishement.

The problem is, her punishment was unofficial. She does not have the legal authority to be judge and executioner here, and is not even in Westeros, so there is literally no legal right for her to kill Dareon, which is what makes this act murder. Arya isn't irredeemably bad because she killed Dareon, but it is not her place to have done so. Honestly, her murder of the insurance salesman is more unsettling than this one, but still, murdering Dareon was not right.

But don't confuse all that with whether Dareon was innocent of the crime that sent him to the Wall. We don't know if he was and likely never will. 

 

[Lord Varys]

Actually, there is no context in the books where Arya Stark is fed the story that Night's Watch deserters have to be killed. It is Brandon Stark who learns that lesson - the male Starks are prepared for their role as lord-executioners, not the girls.

We can sort of assume that Arya also heard that story, but her deciding to murder Dareon comes completely out of the left field. To our knowledge, she never witnessed Lord Eddard behead a deserter nor he was ever giving her that story that the man making the sentence has to swing the sword, etc. If Ned was taking the girls along then Sansa and Arya should have been with the boys in Bran 1.

4 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I don’t disagree with you. I do believe that killing for the false sense of justice is as bad as killing for no reason at all and I do believe that turning to murder to deal with what she doesn’t like is not a solution. When it comes to Dareon I don’t really care. He abandoned his post in a foreign land. If he had abandoned them in Westeros then I may judge him differently, I may even had been more sympathetic to him. But he chose to abandon Aemon and Sam when it was easy for him to. His innocence when it comes to Rowan’s daughter is neither here nor there for me, he abandoned his post and there is only one price to pay for that. Arya may be wrong but  for her whole life there is only one price for a Night’s Watch deserter, death. I undoubtedly tend to be more understanding for a child who feels attached to his earlier life, the only safe life he knew the only happy life he had, especially when he is on the run fighting for his life. To sum up, I don’t particularly care about Dareon on the same time I do feel sorry for Arya and while I do agree that she wasn’t right to kill him I don’t care that she did.

I can sympathize with Dareon. I can even sympathize with Chett. And he is definitely a murderer. You cannot really fault a guy who wants out of a penal colony. Dareon had no wish to take the black - unlike Jon Snow - so I don't think it makes sense for us to pretend he had an obligation to stay there if he saw a way to escape. And to have a self-righteous character watching this and deciding to murder this guy just because she could, just because she thinks he deserves it, is a very ugly thing to do.

And it is not really that Dareon does much more than Sam and Gilly. The money has run out, they cannot continue to Oldtown thanks to the dying old man; Dareon just realizes he doesn't have to continue, ever, and that he can have a better life there. It is shitty behavior towards his friend/penal colony inmate, but it is not something you deserve death for.

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Honestly, her murder of the insurance salesman is more unsettling than this one, but still, murdering Dareon was not right.

Actually, insurance guys seems to more in concert with the Braavosi legal situation. The people there are allowed to hire the Faceless Men to settle scores, so by their standards it is okay for them, Arya included, to murder people. However weird that seems to us, it is how the Braavosi do things.

A murder out of pettiness, personal animosity, vengeance, etc. don't seem to be tolerated in Braavos to the same degree.

[Texas Hold Em]

On 1/31/2021 at 5:51 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

Dareon didn't deserve to get sent to the wall in the first place.  Perhaps there will be justice in the end.  Rowan's daughter and Arya Stark should get a dose of their own medicine. 

[lrresistable]

On 2/3/2021 at 12:10 AM, Julia H. said:

 

We actually know that Lyanna was touched by Rhaegar's singing. (We don't know about the musical taste of the Rowan-girl.) Besides, Rhaegar wasn't exactly your average good-looking commoner.

Dareon is described as a pretty boy. Aemon Targaryen, probably the most objective mind we can get on a matter, has high praise for his singing voice. Alliser Thorne even calls him 'lover boy' , either being sarcastic or implying he shouldn't even be at The Wall at all.

Adding to that comment, Thorne shouldn't have been at The Wall either. He was sent there by Tywin after the Sack of King's Landing for being a Targaryen loyalist. Both there for unjust reasons, and it sounds like Thorne catches this?

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But Dareon does not claim that he was trying to change the unjust social system of feudalism when he slept with a higborn girl. Most probably, he just wanted to have some fun. 

If he and the girl had been in love and planning to elope in order to get married and start a new life together, for example, in the Free Cities, I would understand that they wanted to overcome the social barriers between them for an honourable reason. Or if Dareon had been an advocate of social change and progress in general, you know "rights for the smallfolk", "self-government for every village", "equal rights for men and women", "justice for black brothers", and I don't know what, it would also be different. Unfortunately, however, he was all about having fun, both then and later, in Braavos, never caring about the costs.

He is an advocate of change by deed, therefore embodying the essence of changing the status-quo. He is actively fighting for the rights of the smallfolk by having sex with highborns. albeit not for noble reasons, obviously.

2 people are allowed to have sex. He doesn't need to marry her or go off and elope with her for the sake of optics. 

Also, how do you know he isn't an advocate of social change or progress? He's constantly lamenting about being at The Wall for something he didn't do. He's sounds totally disaffected by how things are run in Westeros.

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The problem with this is that he wasn't on that continent on his own, there were others with him, and they depended on him. He was sent on that journey in order to help Maester Aemon and Sam. It wasn't Maester Aemon who did the injustice to him. It wasn't Sam. Nor was it Jon, who sent him on the mission, actually giving him some respite from life on the Wall. (BTW, none of the these men had committed any crimes to get to the Wall.) In return, Dareon was expected to do his duty and help the others. It was neither a difficult job, nor a particularly dangerous one, and nobody would have grudged him a bit of fun on the way. Instead, he chose to desert, leaving the others in trouble.

If he had escorted them safely to Oldtown and deserted afterwards, when he was on his own, it would still have been desertion, but at least he would not have abandoned his fellow-brothers when they needed him. Or he could have taken the opportunity to prove that he was just the right guy to be sent on missions all over Westeros and Essos, and he could have hoped to establish himself in that position and spend most of his time away from the Wall in future. (He wasn't a fighter anyway. ) If he could have achieved that, his life wouldn't have been so different from the life of a travelling singer. 

Agree 100% on all of the above here. This is probably why our author masterminded Dareon's killing by the hand of Arya. Not only his desertion, his abandonment of Sam & Aemon who needed him, but because of how he chose to live his life after that too.

When we see Dareon again in Arya's POV he's wearing the most expensive clothes imaginable, is living a very hedonistic care-free lifestyle, is bragging about how he'll being singing in the Sealord's Palace and shows no remorse about leaving & doesn't seem to mention the threat of the Others, or make any attempt to help his former Brothers at The Wall.

[SeanF]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - the 'execution' of Gared is also a travesty of justice in the sense that Eddard Stark simply dismisses what the man has to say and focus on formal defection when in fact whatever Gared witnessed and said was of paramount importance for the survival of mankind.

And on a formal level - the execution of a madman also is something only barbaric/primitive societies would consider (sort of like that trials and executions of animals people did in the middle ages). If Gared was indeed mad, then Ned shouldn't have taken his head because a madman isn't responsible for what he did, including desertion.

And if he wasn't mad, then Ned is a moron for not listening to what Gared had to say.

Notions of justice are quite primitive in this world.  The Code of Hammurabi would be considered enlightened.

[lrresistable]

5 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I'm not sold on whether Dareon was innocent of rape, or whether he was guilty. All I'm saying is we have no proof either way, so I find the certainty many commenters have about his innocence in the matter to be rather silly and their arguments for why he is innocent unconvincing. Especially since we only have his version of events to go on. So no, we just can't say for certain whether Dareon is actually innocent or guilty of raping Lord Rowan's daughter.

 

But don't confuse all that with whether Dareon was innocent of the crime that sent him to the Wall. We don't know if he was and likely never will. 

 

Almost every character in the story that knows him believes in Dareon's innocence. but you know better? George's characters are an extension of himself, his thoughts on the matter.

Yoren would've been told by Rowan / the authorities of why Dareon was handed over to him for sending to The Wall. Not once does he mention they dispute the boy's version of events, up until his daughter named it rape under her father's eye.

His story regarding what happened never changed once.  More to the point, he'd have to be insane to rape 1 of (older than him) Rowan's daughters, in her bedchamber, when there are literal guards in the Castle who would cut him down at a moment's notice. Even if his delusional rape "plan" or "consensual until it wasn't" idea you subscribe to is successful he's going to be hunted down like Bran & Rickon were when Theon's hunting for them outside of Winterfell.

he's a prettyboy singer. theres no point in talking about him as if he's Chett and incapable of getting laid. 

interestingly enough, Rowan's wife is a Redwyne. The Redwyne twins are described as quite gross looking by our characters. Rowan's daughter may even be homely. not really relevant, but could explain why she's lusting after a prettyboy singer.

The fact that Rowan, who we know to a decent guy, didn't have him killed for raping his daughter, and instead decides to pack him to The Wall unharmed sounds like he finds his daughter's story a bit dubious at best. In Westeros feudal society, as a Lord, in my own jurisdiction, if my daughter said she was raped in my own Castle that man would be hanged on the spot.

and it's not a "uwu Rowan's such a good guy he couldn't stand to hang his daughter's rapist" situation.

When he's at the Happy Port, all the girls / sex workers seem to like him, or at the least don't mind his company. We don't hear any stories about him coercing them into sex or treating girls badly while he's there.

We use breadcrumb evidence, often put there on purpose by GRRM) from the text - which is all we have to go off,  and it's all pointing to Dareon's innocence. 

 

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Feeling sorry for her and her being a murderer are not mutually exclusive. I like Arya, too, ever more so the more darker she becomes. The Mercy chapter is a master piece. That is powerful stuff. The point of the character clearly is that she is no nice girl but about to become a very competent assassin.

But trauma is no excuse for murder, especially if she kills people who are not/no longer her enemies - like Dareon. And while Raff had it coming, he, too, is lured into a trap and murdered while he is completely helpless in a context where he was no danger to Arya at all.

Killing in self-defense is one thing, doing it because you like doing it - and pursuing a career in the assassin industry as she is doing right now - can and should come with certain consequences attached to it. Like you having to pay the price for murder if you are caught. Or you being reviled by your friends and family for what you have become.

And Arya understand herself how she changes. Even back in ACoK she fears the prospect of telling her family what she did already, and that grows worse and worse along the way.

It's a major mitigating factor, especially when you live in a crapsack world.   All of the six main characters, Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Bran, Arya, and Sansa are pretty traumatised, and all do morally dubious, or downright bad, things - Tyrion most especially.  Tyrion is the one I feel least sympathetic to, as there is a real baseness to his character.

That said, I could see Arya finishing up as a kind of Pretty Meris character - a killer and torturer with dead fish eyes - which would be a really tragic ending to her story.  A real problem with a lot of fantasy writing (and thrillers generally) is that being a professional assassin is treated as a glamourous occupation.  It shouldn't be.  Ian Fleming got that right, in showing Bond being gradually destroyed by his way of life.

[Rondo]

On 1/31/2021 at 2:56 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Prove it.

Arya's own actions prove it.  Arya has lost her sanity.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

8 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Arya's own actions prove it.  Arya has lost her sanity.

Prove it.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

10 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Arya's own actions prove it.  Arya has lost her sanity.

So you say. What actual proof is there to it. Is she ever delusional? Does she black out? Does she have split personality disorder? Does she lack empathy? What action of hers makes you say she lost her sanity?

Or did you just pull that out of the well of thought?

[Darksnider05]

Yeah I don't get all the talk about trauma that's a different subject Dareon got caught deserting by a Northern Noble that's basically the end of his story.  Worst he got caught by one while abandoning his companions who were relying on him.

The rape if it happened or not does not seem relevant to why he died.

As for Arya being insane if you've read her chapters you know this to not be true and no proof is going to be brought to prove it.  Theon is an example of someone who is no longer all there.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

The rape if it happened or not does not seem relevant to why he died.

I mean it kinda does. Arya is not that much about the letter of the law, but what she feels is right or wrong. So if Daeron was innocent and forced to take the black for a crime he didn't commit, than him deserting makes sense morally speaking. Why waste his life away as punishment for something he didn't do? If he was guilty on the other hand, then he just got his just comeuppance.

[Darksnider05]

41 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean it kinda does. Arya is not that much about the letter of the law, but what she feels is right or wrong. So if Daeron was innocent and forced to take the black for a crime he didn't commit, than him deserting makes sense morally speaking. Why waste his life away as punishment for something he didn't do? If he was guilty on the other hand, then he just got his just comeuppance.

Because if anyone can walk because they feel they do not deserve to be there than the NW breaks down and any future Daeron's do not get the option of the wall.  They hang instead.

[broken one]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

A real problem with a lot of fantasy writing (and thrillers generally) is that being a professional assassin is treated as a glamourous occupation. 

And warriors are not so scarred before battle to clench their teeth till they break. Glamour and glory or "All Quiet on the Westerosi Front". Or somewhere in between.

[TheLastWolf]

23 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Pia? When on earth does she sleep with Pia?

ALYN!! WTH HAPPENED TO YOU!?

Jus kiddin

I waa talking about Jaime. Cersei, Pia and next Brienne. Sorry for being too subtle 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

23 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Pia? When on earth does she sleep with Pia?

ALYN!! WTH HAPPENED TO YOU!?

Jus kiddin

I waa talking about Jaime. Cersei, Pia and next Brienne. Sorry for being too subtle 

You said that Jaime slept with women, Cersei, Pia and soon Brienne. So when does he sleep with Pia? He turned her down unless I'm very much mistaken

[TheLastWolf]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You said that Jaime slept with women, Cersei, Pia and soon Brienne. So when does he sleep with Pia? He turned her down unless I'm very much mistaken

Unfortunately, you are mate 

Jaime gave him a cool look. "She did not say who sent her."

The maester smiled modestly. "Your fever was largely gone, and I thought you might enjoy a bit of exercise. Pia is quite skilled, would you not agree? And so . . . willing."

She had been that, certainly. She had slipped in his door and out of her clothes so quickly that Jaime had thought he was still dreamin g.

There's more. ASOS

damn my a search of ice and fire engine not bringing all up now 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

She had been that, certainly. She had slipped in his door and out of her clothes so quickly that Jaime had thought he was still dreamin g.

There's more. ASOS

Allow me to help

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[Blah blah blah, Pia gets under the covers puts her breasts in Jaime's hand and says how much of a hard on she had when Jaime went to Harrenhal before]

Sending her away had not been easy after that, but Jaime had done it all the same. I have a woman, he reminded himself.

 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 1/31/2021 at 5:51 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

Dareon would have been hanged if he was guilty of what Lady Rowan accused him of.  Tywin would have had him tortured and killed if he had done anything even close to rape to Cersei.  Ned would have done the same if he had raped Sansa.  So we have to ask, why he was given a chance to take the black.  I think Lord Rowan was trying to save face for his daughter.  I'm pretty sure the boy was innocent.  Jon knew the story and sent Dareon to advertise for the Watch.  A traveling singer is good advertisement for them.  But that wasn't all.  Jon let Dareon do what he was good at, entertaining.  Dareon lost his way and took advantage of the lack of supervision.  But that does not give Arya the right to kill him.  Her two brothers are no better.  Arya is easily the most disturbing of the top characters.  She is full on crazy.  I get it, she is traumatized.  But she made some very dark choices too.