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The Lord of the Crossing

Dareon was a victim of Arya's brand of "justice"

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55 minutes ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

Arya is as sadistic as Ramsey

Arya rapes people with dogs and flays people genital's for fun and amusement?  I saw none of that in the books?

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11 hours ago, lrresistable said:

Almost every character in the story that knows him believes in Dareon's innocence. but you know better? George's characters are an extension of himself, his thoughts on the matter.

What every pov character believes about a tertiary character in the story, in the 3 or 4 instances where they think about him, doesn't really mean very much. And if all of George's character's thoughts are extensions of his own, does that mean he agrees with Xaro Xoan Daxos's defence of slavery in ADoD? Does he agree with Marrilion that baseborn girls are wanton and willing when he attempts to rape Sansa? Does he support Stannis's decision to give Edric Storm to Melisandre? Or Dany's decision to have innocent people tortured? You can claim George believes all sorts of things based on what his characters say, do and think. That does not mean that George actually believes those things.

13 hours ago, lrresistable said:

Yoren would've been told by Rowan / the authorities of why Dareon was handed over to him for sending to The Wall. Not once does he mention they dispute the boy's version of events, up until his daughter named it rape under her father's eye.

What is this claim based on? Are the authorities under any obligation to tell Yoren why they are sending their arrested criminals to the Watch? Or do they just give Yoren the pick of their dungeons, like Ned did in AGoT? Does Yoren ask his recruits about why they are being sent to the Wall? Not from what we see in Arya's experience in ACoK. This particular argument is based on a series of assumptions that may or may not be correct.

13 hours ago, lrresistable said:

His story regarding what happened never changed once.  More to the point, he'd have to be insane to rape 1 of (older than him) Rowan's daughters, in her bedchamber, when there are literal guards in the Castle who would cut him down at a moment's notice. Even if his delusional rape "plan" or "consensual until it wasn't" idea you subscribe to is successful he's going to be hunted down like Bran & Rickon were when Theon's hunting for them outside of Winterfell.

Dareon doesn't have to change his story at all for it to not be true or to be biased. This detail is irrelevant. And who ever accused Dareon of being a brilliant, clear-headed thinker? From what we learn of him, he absolutely could be impulsive and irresponsible enough to force himself on Lord Rowan's daughter, especially if he convinced himself that she was asking for it. Like I said, it's a classic he said/she said. 

13 hours ago, lrresistable said:

he's a prettyboy singer. theres no point in talking about him as if he's Chett and incapable of getting laid. 

Dareon being a "prettyboy" has squat to do with whether he might have raped someone. Being incapable of getting laid is also irrelevant to whether someone commits rape.

14 hours ago, lrresistable said:

 interestingly enough, Rowan's wife is a Redwyne. The Redwyne twins are described as quite gross looking by our characters. Rowan's daughter may even be homely. not really relevant, but could explain why she's lusting after a prettyboy singer.

You're right. None of these details is relevent. Or even particarly interesting. Physically unnatractive people can and do get raped or assaulted. There's a whole subplot about the "beautiful" and "chivalrous" knights in Renly's army taking bets to see which one of them could "bed" (a euphamism for rape here) the physically unnatractive Brienne, for example. But since we're talking about Dareon here, why would he want to bed a girl if he thought she was gross?

The thing about her being lusty because she might have been ugly is rather apalling reasoning in my opinion.

14 hours ago, lrresistable said:

The fact that Rowan, who we know to a decent guy, didn't have him killed for raping his daughter, and instead decides to pack him to The Wall unharmed sounds like he finds his daughter's story a bit dubious at best. In Westeros feudal society, as a Lord, in my own jurisdiction, if my daughter said she was raped in my own Castle that man would be hanged on the spot.

Here you are projecting. If Lord Rowan found his daughter's story dubious, why did he punish Dareon at all? The fact that he seems to be a decent guy could just as easily mean he gave Dareon the "Wall or be gelded" choice instead of hanging him outright.

14 hours ago, lrresistable said:

When he's at the Happy Port, all the girls / sex workers seem to like him, or at the least don't mind his company. We don't hear any stories about him coercing them into sex or treating girls badly while he's there.

They're sex workers. It is literally their job to seem to like him. He is paying them for the pleasure of his company. As long as he pays up, they have to do their jobs and service him as he wishes. 

14 hours ago, lrresistable said:

We use breadcrumb evidence, often put there on purpose by GRRM) from the text - which is all we have to go off,  and it's all pointing to Dareon's innocence. 

So far, your breadcrumbs don't appear to be leading anywhere in particular. It is still an ambigous, he said/she said situation where we don't have much evidence either way of whether Dareon raped the girl or not.

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Accusing commoners bedding highborn girls of rape seems to be rather common modus operandi in this world. Another such case would be the fate of the stableboy who 'dishonors' Coryanne Wylde in FaB. That guy is even gelded before they send him to the Wall.

That doesn't mean Dareon cannot be a rapist, but the idea that this guy actually invaded the bedchamber of a highborn maid in her father's castle is ... more than just a stretch. He was a young guy, and he knew that he would be completely at the mercy of Rowan and his people if he were discovered. If he wanted to have sex with the girl against her will he would have to be prepared to kill her afterwards to prevent her from ratting him out.

That just isn't Dareon.

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3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

And who ever accused Dareon of being a brilliant, clear-headed thinker? From what we learn of him, he absolutely could be impulsive and irresponsible enough to force himself on Lord Rowan's daughter, especially if he convinced himself that she was asking for it. Like I said, it's a classic he said/she said. 

And again you come up with this nonsense. Tell me, if the girl helped him climb into his room, how on earth he had to force himself on her? This, again, makes no sense, no matter from which direction you try to approach it. 

So, again, the two options here are still only 1) he raped the girl intentionally, 2) he didn't rape her at all, and she lied. There is no actual way he unintentionally raped a girl that invited him trough her window.

If she invited him, then it is likely that Lord Rowan figured out that his daughter had to help him come inside, since she likely had guards outside the door, otherwise he would not have come trough the window.

Then Lord Rowan probably made the best out of the situation: He had to serve justice for his daughter, but managed to spare the boy's life woth sending him to the Wall. It actually makes sense, a lot more than anything else, tho this had been said and explained to you several times.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

Arya is as sadistic as Ramsey

Since it is trending and people are using my lines too, #ProveIt... 

6 hours ago, Darksnider05 said:

Arya rapes people with dogs and flays people genital's for fun and amusement?  I saw none of that in the books?

Me neither. He probably read a alternative multiverse publication 

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11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

What every pov character believes about a tertiary character in the story, in the 3 or 4 instances where they think about him, doesn't really mean very much. And if all of George's character's thoughts are extensions of his own, does that mean he agrees with Xaro Xoan Daxos's defence of slavery in ADoD? Does he agree with Marrilion that baseborn girls are wanton and willing when he attempts to rape Sansa? Does he support Stannis's decision to give Edric Storm to Melisandre? Or Dany's decision to have innocent people tortured? You can claim George believes all sorts of things based on what his characters say, do and think. That does not mean that George actually believes those things.

Oh I see you are using mighty Chewbacca defense:

Quote

...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Every of those instances is specific event with it's own characters involved, and can't be used to judge over specific case of Daeron - information we have about him from pov characters is only we get - but it is consistent and help us create patterns.

11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

What is this claim based on? Are the authorities under any obligation to tell Yoren why they are sending their arrested criminals to the Watch? Or do they just give Yoren the pick of their dungeons, like Ned did in AGoT? Does Yoren ask his recruits about why they are being sent to the Wall? Not from what we see in Arya's experience in ACoK. This particular argument is based on a series of assumptions that may or may not be correct.

I believe it is very prudent for Yoren to know for what crime or crimes his recruits are sentenced, their occupation and other information - since it influences his safety  - Rorge, Biter and Jaqen for example were held under lock - as they are considered very dangerous. Other sent to the wall he deemed less dangerous like poachers and they waren't  restrained and were given tasks like scouting.

11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Dareon doesn't have to change his story at all for it to not be true or to be biased. This detail is irrelevant. And who ever accused Dareon of being a brilliant, clear-headed thinker? From what we learn of him, he absolutely could be impulsive and irresponsible enough to force himself on Lord Rowan's daughter, especially if he convinced himself that she was asking for it. Like I said, it's a classic he said/she said.

Unbiased authority and not father of the accuser/victim and Lord of Reach to boot , should be a judge of his crimes. 

What information we have from other characters and his behavior is only we have to make  assessment. He is described by many characters to have attractive attributes: Jon, Alliser, Aemon, Samwell:

Quote

"Looking for mermaids, Slayer?" asked Dareon when he saw Sam staring off across the bay. Fair-haired and hazel-eyed, the handsome young singer out of Eastwatch looked more like some dark prince than a black brother.

...

From wiki: Ser Alliser is passing eight boys on to the Lord Commander: Todder, Halder, Grenn, Dareon, Albett, Pypar, Matthar, and Jon. 

He called out the names one by one. "Toad. Stone Head. Aurochs. Lover. Pimple. Monkey. Ser Loon." Last, he looked at Jon. "And the Bastard."

...

When it came to talking girls out of their clothes Dareon had a honeyed tongue, yet in the captain's cabin somehow Sam had done all the talking, trying to persuade the Braavosi to wait for them.

He also seems genuinely aggravated by the unfairness of the reason he was sent to the wall - sticking to his story.

Quote

Jon turned on him in a fury. "I see Ser Alliser's bloody hand, that's all I see. He wanted to shame me, and he has."
Dareon gave him a look. "The stewards are fine for the likes of you and me, Sam, but not for Lord Snow."

"I'm a better swordsman and a better rider than any of you," Jon blazed back. "It's not fair."

"Fair?" Dareon sneered. "The girl was waiting for me, naked as the day she was born. She pulled me through the window, and you talk to me of fair?" He walked off.

Personally to me is quite irrelevant what is author opinion about characters or events if it isn't supported by thing he wrote. For example Martin's favorite character in F&B is Daemon Targaryen "a rogue" , "made of light and darkness in equal parts." yet all his actions in the novels are quite dark, even Tolkien and his letters, praising of righteousness and goodness of Valar are hollow in the evidence of their inaction. 

Even Faceless men berate Arya for murder of Daeron- maybe that is what is Martin's philosophical stance on the act?

Quote

The girl was not sorry, though. Dareon had been a deserter from the Night's Watch; he had deserved to die.

She had said as much to the kindly man. "And are you a god, to decide who should live and who should die?" he asked her. "We give the gift to those marked by Him of Many Faces, after prayers and sacrifice. So has it always been, from the beginning. I have told you of the founding of our order, of how the first of us answered the prayers of slaves who wished for death.

The gift was given only to those who yearned for it, in the beginning … but one day, the first of us heard a slave praying not for his own death but for his master's. So fervently did he desire this that he offered all he had, that his prayer might be answered. And it seemed to our first brother that this sacrifice would be pleasing to Him of Many Faces, so that night he granted the prayer. Then he went to the slave and said, 'You offered all you had for this man's death, but slaves have nothing but their lives. That is what the god desires of you. For the rest of your days on earth, you will serve him.' And from that moment, we were two." His hand closed around her arm, gently but firmly.

"All men must die. We are but death's instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god's powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?"

No, she thought. "Yes," she said.

Funny thing but Dareon and Marillion both singers are reminiscent of Daeron character from The Silmarillion - who was greatest musician in the Middle Earth and also kind of a douche.

Edited by Eltharion21

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11 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Oh I see you are using mighty Chewbacca defense:

Every of those instances is specific event with it's own characters involved, and can't be used to judge over specific case of Daeron - information we have about him from pov characters is only we get - but it is consistent and help us create patterns.

I believe it is very prudent for Yoren to know for what crime or crimes his recruits are sentenced, their occupation and other information - since it influences his safety  - Rorge, Biter and Jaqen for example were held under lock - as they are considered very dangerous. Other sent to the wall he deemed less dangerous like poachers are not restrained and given tasks like scouting.

Unbiased judge and not father of the supposed victim and Lord of Reach to boot , should be a judge of his crimes. 

What information we have from other characters and his behavior is only we have to make  assessment. He is described by many characters to have attractive attributes: Jon, Alliser, Aemon, Samwell:

He also seems genuinely aggravated by the unfairness of the reason he was sent to the wall - sticking to his story.

Personally to me is quite irrelevant what is author opinion about characters or events if it isn't supported by thing he wrote. For example Martin's favorite character in F&B is Daemon Targaryen "a rogue" , "made of light and darkness in equal parts." yet all his actions in the novels are quite dark, even Tolkien and his letters, praising of righteousness and goodness of Valar are hollow in the evidence of their inaction. 

Even Faceless men berate Arya for murder of Daeron- maybe that is what is Martin's philosophical stance on the act?

Funny thing but Dareon and Marillion both singers are reminiscent of Daeron character from The Silmarillion - who was greatest musician in the Middle Earth and also kind of a douche.

The Facelss Men themselves are acting like God, when they bestow the "gift" of death.  They're killers for hire who dress up their actions in fancy philosophy.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The Facelss Men themselves are acting like God, when they bestow the "gift" of death.  They're killers for hire who dress up their actions in fancy philosophy.

I think it is difference by their understanding that they don't choose their targets from people that annoyed them or have list of those who slighted them.

"All men must die. We are but death's instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god's powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?"

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3 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

I think it is difference by their understanding that they don't choose their targets from people that annoyed them or have list of those who slighted them.

"All men must die. We are but death's instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god's powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?"

I think that killing for money is worse.

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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think that killing for money is worse.

I am not sure they are specifically killing to get rich, but to further their philosophy/religion maybe.

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On 1/31/2021 at 5:51 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

:agree:

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To be honest, I can't find myself caring whether or not Dareon is actually guilty.  He had no business being in the girl's room in the first place.  What did he expect her to say?  "Sure, I invited him into my room so I could fuck him."  Yeah, right.  I think not.  As I pointed out above, under the circumstances, he is lucky to be alive and in one piece.  We aren't in the modern world anymore, and shouldn't pretend that we are.  Especially on issues of social structure like role of children or women, and sexual relationships, because their standards are going to be very different from our own;.  I just roll with it.  It's easier, and I don't get frustrated.

Dareon is essentially a foil for Sam and Arya.  I am far more interested in the effect of his murder on Arya than anything else.  Its ease bothers me, and I think it is too easy for her to kill.  I also think she had no right to kill him, but I can't get too upset about it on that score.   He did desert, and was singularly dislikable about it into the bargain. 

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4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

I believe it is very prudent for Yoren to know for what crime or crimes his recruits are sentenced, their occupation and other information - since it influences his safety  - Rorge, Biter and Jaqen for example were held under lock - as they are considered very dangerous. Other sent to the wall he deemed less dangerous like poachers and they waren't  restrained and were given tasks like scouting.

On a side note, what was Yoren's plan with those three? Would he have them caged during training? Would he keep them caged after they swore they vows? Realistically, he had no way of making them stay.

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58 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

On a side note, what was Yoren's plan with those three? Would he have them caged during training? Would he keep them caged after they swore they vows? Realistically, he had no way of making them stay.

Maybe it shows how lack of recruits in Night Watch was dire, so they couldn't be picky at choosing recruits. They would likely be split between the Castles in the Wall, kept under guard for some time while training  and  executed if they don't accept rules.

They might adapt and fulfill their violent urges against the Wildlings, or they would try and escape, like H'ghar certainly would.

 

Edited by Eltharion21

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On 2/1/2021 at 6:40 AM, broken one said:

1. Even if it was consensual (and I am not convinced) it was not wise and probably illegal too to try with lord's daughter (it is Westeros, not Brussels 2021)

2. Arya did what her father or brothers would have done, executed a deserter from the NW, not just a deserter, but real piece of scum.  I honor her for that :ninja:

The lord of Winterfell could make that call in the north.  The murder took place in Braavos where the Starks have never had any authority. 

Ned killed Gared on behalf of King Robert.  He was carrying out his duties as the lord of the northern territory while in the north.  The execution was formal.  Gared was formally charged and given his moment to speak. Dareon was taken by surprise.  Arya just wanted to kill a boy who annoyed her.  It wasn't an execution for a crime.   He got on her nerves and she killed him for it.  Arya's morals are warped.  The Starks no longer have the duty to execute deserters.  They no longer have this authority.  They never had it in Braavos.  Braavos is a sanctuary where the rules of Westeros do not carry authority.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Accusing commoners bedding highborn girls of rape seems to be rather common modus operandi in this world. Another such case would be the fate of the stableboy who 'dishonors' Coryanne Wylde in FaB. That guy is even gelded before they send him to the Wall.

That doesn't mean Dareon cannot be a rapist, but the idea that this guy actually invaded the bedchamber of a highborn maid in her father's castle is ... more than just a stretch. He was a young guy, and he knew that he would be completely at the mercy of Rowan and his people if he were discovered. If he wanted to have sex with the girl against her will he would have to be prepared to kill her afterwards to prevent her from ratting him out.

That just isn't Dareon.

It is possible though, because Marillion has done it (or would have done if not dragged off by Brune).

The parallels are freakishly strong, when you start looking at them - singers, young and handsome, with an amazing voice; sexually assertive/aggressive; also vain, greedy and lacking empathy. (A lot of grrm's singers are something like this...)

The parallel on the girls' side is the lordly father. Alayne's bastard status is less relevant than the fact her 'father' has boosted her to the top of society (many or most acknowledged bastards are more or less treated equally to the trueborn; but the point here is that her lord father loves her).

Marillion's case is interesting, because, had he managed to force himself on Alayne, would he have seen it as rape? I don't think so. His spoken thoughts are all like, are you wet for me already? you want me as much as I want you. you've got a lustful nature because you're a bastard... He's thinking with his dick, basically, not even registering her rejection. It is at least possible Dareon did the same.

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18 hours ago, Darksnider05 said:

Arya rapes people with dogs and flays people genital's for fun and amusement?  I saw none of that in the books?

There are still 2 books left to we see Arya's sadistic side more explicitly. Even more now that she has the skills that can help her to supply her vicious needs for violence

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3 minutes ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

There are still 2 books left to we see Arya's sadistic side more explicitly

I love English too

3 minutes ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

her vicious needs for violence

This is getting repetitive, but can you prove it? She has a need for vengeance/justice that much is clear, but where did you get "her vicious need for violence"? Or her "sadism" for that matter.

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