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UK politics: Veni Vidi Vaccinati

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10 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Why does mask wearing end on 21st june when not all adults will have been offered the vaccine? I get a lot of it, but if some dirty fucker is coughing all over my train without a mask people are going to be kicking off. 

Well the point is to whether all the vulnerable people who make up the overwhelming majority of deaths and hospitalisations have been vaccinated, and they should have been by then.

Boris has come out and said that Zero Covid is not an achievable aim and isn’t something we are going for, and I’m glad about that. It’s unrealistic. 

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4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well the point is to whether all the vulnerable people who make up the overwhelming majority of deaths and hospitalisations have been vaccinated, and they should have been by then.

Boris has come out and said that Zero Covid is not an achievable aim and isn’t something we are going for, and I’m glad about that. It’s unrealistic. 

But if they are going to offer every adult a vaccine by end of july, why not leave rules that dont really impact anyone in place until then.  Wear a mask in shops and public transport, wfh if you can. All anyone cares about is seeing family and going to the pub anyway. I'm sure if everything else was open they would stick with a few basic rules for another 6 weeks. 

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7 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

But if they are going to offer every adult a vaccine by end of july, why not leave rules that dont really impact anyone in place until then.  Wear a mask in shops and public transport, wfh if you can. All anyone cares about is seeing family and going to the pub anyway. I'm sure if everything else was open they would stick with a few basic rules for another 6 weeks. 

I think people will still wear masks on public transport, we just don’t need to mandate it. It should be encouraged especially if you have symptoms.

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14 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think people will still wear masks on public transport, we just don’t need to mandate it. It should be encouraged especially if you have symptoms.

That’s optimistic of you! Why remove the existing rule before everyone is vaccinated? We know these restrictions can’t last forever, but it sounds like it would be significantly safer if they just waited 6 more weeks. Data not dates, my arse.

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4 minutes ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

That’s optimistic of you! Why remove the existing rule before everyone is vaccinated? We know these restrictions can’t last forever, but it sounds like it would be significantly safer if they just waited 6 more weeks. Data not dates, my arse.

The dates are flexible in that they can be extended if the data doesn’t support opening up. If the criteria for removing masks isn’t achieved then they will probably still be mandatory.

I suspect that people who are worried about catching something will continue to wear masks. I also suspect that mask wearing will make little difference to case numbers overall.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

The dates are flexible in that they can be extended if the data doesn’t support opening up. If the criteria for removing masks isn’t achieved then they will probably still be mandatory.

I suspect that people who are worried about catching something will continue to wear masks. I also suspect that mask wearing will make little difference to case numbers overall.

thing is with most masks,  wearing one mainly protects others from germs you have.  Most are not that good at protecting you from other peoples germs.  thus if you are one of the people worries about catching something you need everyone else to be wearing a mask, especially on confined crowded spaces like buses and trains.

 

mandatory wearing of masks on public transport and in shops really doesn't seem like an over reaction until everyone has been offered a vaccination.  and its not really a hard to wear one for an hour.   I'm not saying you have to wear one in bars restaurants or social gatherings, just the places where the more cautious are forced to interact with less cautious to get food and travel to work (for those that can't work from home).  A lot of people will still ignore the rules or not wear them correctly, but more people will be encouraged to wear them if that's the rules even with no enforcement.  Waiting an extra 6 weeks for this seems like a good compromise at least from my perspective.   Unless you can tell me there is a clear benefit to not wearing masks in these situations?

 

Yes there are some more specialised masks available that give the wearer better protection, but lets not talk about that here again.

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5 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

thing is with most masks,  wearing one mainly protects others from germs you have.  Most are not that good at protecting you from other peoples germs.  thus if you are one of the people worries about catching something you need everyone else to be wearing a mask, especially on confined crowded spaces like buses and trains.

 

mandatory wearing of masks on public transport and in shops really doesn't seem like an over reaction until everyone has been offered a vaccination.  and its not really a hard to wear one for an hour.   I'm not saying you have to wear one in bars restaurants or social gatherings, just the places where the more cautious are forced to interact with less cautious to get food and travel to work (for those that can't work from home).  A lot of people will still ignore the rules or not wear them correctly, but more people will be encouraged to wear them if that's the rules even with no enforcement.  Waiting an extra 6 weeks for this seems like a good compromise at least from my perspective.   Unless you can tell me there is a clear benefit to not wearing masks in these situations?

 

Yes there are some more specialised masks available that give the wearer better protection, but lets not talk about that here again.

My guess is that masks themselves have little effect on the R number when compared to other measures like social distancing , and that the goal at this point isn’t to prevent anyone ever getting the virus again, but to keep numbers relatively low so that there is no pressure on the NHS.

I do agree that it isn’t too much of a hardship to wear a mask, but it might be that it’s just symbolic, a visual reminder that measures are still in place:

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3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

My guess is that masks themselves have little effect on the R number when compared to other measures like social distancing , and that the goal at this point isn’t to prevent anyone ever getting the virus again, but to keep numbers relatively low so that there is no pressure on the NHS.

I do agree that it isn’t too much of a hardship to wear a mask, but it might be that it’s just symbolic, a visual reminder that measures are still in place:

but at least by waiting, you will be helping those who are imunocompamised and can't take the vaccine.  these people still need to get food.   other people live with these people and also may be young enough not to be vaccinated by then, so need to be extra careful they don't bring the virus back home.

if we wait till everyone is vaccinated then they get protection form the herd immunity from the rest of us.  

 

I can get the symbolic reminder thing, but 6 weeks is not long,  if it was to be another 6 months then I'd give that argument more weight.   Waiting is also a symbolic thing celebrating everyone (who can) getting the vaccine.  the last bit of   "Its as Over as it ever will be"

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5 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

but at least by waiting, you will be helping those who are imunocompamised and can't take the vaccine.  these people still need to get food.   other people live with these people and also may be young enough not to be vaccinated by then, so need to be extra careful they don't bring the virus back home.

if we wait till everyone is vaccinated then they get protection form the herd immunity from the rest of us.  

 

I can get the symbolic reminder thing, but 6 weeks is not long,  if it was to be another 6 months then I'd give that argument more weight.   Waiting is also a symbolic thing celebrating everyone (who can) getting the vaccine.  the last bit of   "Its as Over as it ever will be"

We should be making sure that those who still need protection are getting that protection. If they can’t get food we should be delivering it. They could also wear masks if it’s a real issue. What are the numbers of people who cannot take the vaccine? 
 

I do agree that 6 weeks is not long, and we could potentially wait longer. It is all about balance though, and there are a number of factors at play. Public transport probably won’t be as busy as normal as many people will be working from home, and also I do believe that there will be some people who will continue to wear masks. Add in that other more important factors than masks will probably still be in play and I don’t see it as a real issue.

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4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

We should be making sure that those who still need protection are getting that protection. If they can’t get food we should be delivering it. They could also wear masks if it’s a real issue. What are the numbers of people who cannot take the vaccine? 
 

I do agree that 6 weeks is not long, and we could potentially wait longer. It is all about balance though, and there are a number of factors at play. Public transport probably won’t be as busy as normal as many people will be working from home, and also I do believe that there will be some people who will continue to wear masks. Add in that other more important factors than masks will probably still be in play and I don’t see it as a real issue.

I don't know the actual numbers.  but one example of those needing protecting, are those undergoing cancer treatment.  My cousin is one of those.  Although she is shielding and not going out, her partner does all the shopping runs and is not able to shield as he has to physically attend work or quit his job.  Luckily he has recently turned 60 so should be getting the vaccine relatively soon.  He could easily pick up the virus and then infect my cousin, who would probably die from it.   They have reduced their risk as much as they can.  but unless all food will be delivered and bills paid there are limits on how isolated they can be.

Once we have relaxed everything else mandatory masks for all (in these specific places that can't be avoided) are the only thing that protects these people until herd vaccine protection is available.  and that normally needs 80-95% (I think) of the population to be vaccinated.  and it seems such a little thing to ask of the masses.

I do agree its about balance.   I'm just not sure we agree on where the balance point is.

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2 minutes ago, mormont said:

Recycling the discredited arguments of February 2020 is one way to celebrate the anniversary of the pandemic, I suppose.

I don't think we argued about masks until March.   We may have been speculating on if we needed to stock up on toilet roll though due to what was happening in some countries.  (it was march and april when we had our shortage on the shelves)

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21 minutes ago, mormont said:

Recycling the discredited arguments of February 2020 is one way to celebrate the anniversary of the pandemic, I suppose.

Matt Hancock would surely agree, having claimed this morning, in the very same interview, that the UK never had a national shortage of PPE last year, before going on to admit that “obviously there was a massive shortage of a huge amount of items”.

These people are gaslighting the nation and nobody is holding them to account.

 

Edited by Spockydog

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On 2/22/2021 at 8:36 AM, Which Tyler said:

There's an excellent weekly radio program in Canada called White Coat, Black Art, done by an emergency room doctor from Toronto. He's covered a lot of great topics over the years, including the impact of the SARs outbreak in Toronto, which was one of the worst in the world, brought here by people who attended a wedding in a Hong Kong hotel where another guest had SARs.

His latest program is on the rise of eating disorders in teenagers. Teens, as a group, have been very hard hit by the lockdowns, becoming psychologically dislocated by the loss of their social contacts.

Here's a link to Dr. Brian Goldman's twitter feed, where he posts tweets about his shows with links to the podcast. 

https://twitter.com/cbcwhitecoat?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

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https://mobile.twitter.com/i/web/status/1364704482710421506

Oh good.

Definitive proof (were it needed) that we steadfastly refuse to learn from previous mistakes.

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/30-10-20-eat_out_to_help_out_scheme_drove_new_covid_19_infections_up_by_between_8_and_17_new_research_finds

Any thoughts that the dates given for easing are "best case scenarios and to be decided by the data closer to the time" look delusional already

 

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On 2/23/2021 at 1:40 AM, Werthead said:

 

Obviously this plan is moronically stupid, utterly unfeasible, certainly unaffordable and politically unsellable.

So that's it. It's definitely happening. This will Be Johnson's Great Wall of China, his Maginot line, his Hadrian's wall, his Stone Henge. 

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Funny this talk about masks not being mandated while COVID is still about and non-immune people milling around. Meanwhile here we now have a national public transport mask mandate with no COVID circulating anywhere outside of Auckland and even in Auckland it's only a handful of people who are now in quarantine.

I don't really think our national public transport mask mandate is necessary, but it seems sensible to maintain a mask mandate in the UK until you have achieved your total vaccination goal. Just because people aren't in a vulnerable demographic doesn't mean a few won't gt sick and a handful won't die, and if infection rate spikes modestly in that period, then is 6 weeks of mask freedom really worth the cost of a life or two?

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8 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

So that's it. It's definitely happening. This will Be Johnson's Great Wall of China, his Maginot line, his Hadrian's wall, his Stone Henge. 

I mean, those things were relatively successful (the Maginot Line intimidated the Germans into avoiding it, which still ended disastrously for the French, but at least the original line was left intact). Stonehenge worked well at its original site in Wales for 400 years and did so great that it got packed up and moved over a hundred miles to a new location, where it's continued to give good solar-tracking mystic gubbins service for over 4,000 years. It's ROI must be amazing. That's certainly nothing you can ever accuse a Johnson project of being.

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