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HBO's THE NEVERS to air in April 2021


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@Ran

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This is just early speculation on my part, but does Mrs. True have two abilities, or was she a good fighter to begin with? I would have much preferred it if her precognition ability allowed her to basically be like a Jedi, which would explain her Batman-like skills. I'm not sure where a low-class woman in that time period would have been able to learn martial arts. 

 

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Just now, Corvinus85 said:

@Ran

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This is just early speculation on my part, but does Mrs. True have two abilities, or was she a good fighter to begin with? I would have much preferred it if her precognition ability allowed her to basically be like a Jedi, which would explain her Batman-like skills. I'm not sure where a low-class woman in that time period would have been able to learn martial arts. 

 

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Yes, I'm wondering the same as to whether her fighting is in her background or if it's actually related to her gaining the abilities of other seemingly-dead (or perhaps comatose -- it's not established that Massen's daughter is dead, I guess) Touched because of her unique state as someone who was on the verge of death (or dead) when she was Touched.

If it's in her background, I'm going to assume she was married to a sea captain or something and had sailed with him to Asia. Or something. But I think I prefer the idea that she has gotten that ability from others.

 

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She jumped into a stairwell, somehow knowing or working out that her dress catching was going to allow her to survive. That suggests to me ... something to do with her power. I guess we’ll see, or not. Also, I thought Massen’s daughter was the giant girl, is that not right?

I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would, judging by pretty much all the reviews I read, which said Whedon had lost his touch. I do think it had a number of flaws, the main one being jamming a lot of stuff in at once. Maybe just first ep syndrome but the reviews (critics have seen four episodes) suggest it continues, apparently to the detriment of character work. But it was fun and I personally thought it was not as overwritten as Whedon shows from 20 years ago but the dialogue was still snappy enough to be entertaining.

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Yes, I think part of Mrs. True's ability might have been explained by her having a sense of what would happen just a second or two ahead of her, to see that that would work. Hard to say if that's the situation here or if she just took her chance.

Massen's daughter is not the same actress as Primrose. Three years have passed, of course, but they're not particularly similar. I think they are unrelated.

 

Most of the reviews definitely felt like critics were being extra-critical, so to speak, because of Whedon and their apparent need to reassess everything he had done in light of recent stuff. 

 

 

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It occurs to me now that Amelia was suicidal and is certainly reckless so yes, it’s also possible that she just flung herself over the rail and trusted to luck.

 

40 minutes ago, Ran said:

Most of the reviews definitely felt like critics were being extra-critical, so to speak, because of Whedon and their apparent need to reassess everything he had done in light of recent stuff. 

That’s definitely true of the freelance web writers who saw Buffy and Angel as kids. But I also read reviews in the Guardian and the NYT which I think were more objectively considering it as a piece of filmmaking. Those two were more positive than the pop culture sites I saw but still generally unfavourable.

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Just now, john said:
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That’s definitely true of the freelance web writers who saw Buffy and Angel as kids. But I also read reviews in the Guardian and the NYT which I think were more objectively considering it as a piece of filmmaking. Those two were more positive than the pop culture sites I saw but still generally unfavourable.

Hard to say with them. NYT is generally pretty negative on SF/F (they panned GoT in its first season, quite infamously). I think the ones that give me some hope are this one from the Playlist that specifically addresses how it goes in the later of the four episodes, where they seemed to find the development of characters promising, and this one in Variety.

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Having watched episode 2, I can see why critics may complain about too many stoylines, but at the same time how could it have been different given the premise? If show concentrated on a couple of characters, the complained would have been that everyone else is one-dimensional. That being said, while I'm not bothered by multiple storylines, I am wondering where this is supposed to be going.

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I groaned when I saw Mrs. Bidlow was Darth Sidious. But her conversation with her brother was definitely put in a clearer light because of that revelation.

 

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Honestly, I was surprised that they didn't really introduce any new storylines, per se, just began expanding on what they had revealed to date. Well, except for one thing:

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The fact that Maladie and Amalia know one another as Molly and Sarah is certainly a new plot turn, although I think it may not be as straightforward as it seems. How can Amalia have looked at all her records without recognizing her? Unless it's not that she didn't recognize her, it's that she did but didn't think Maladie recognied her... which makes me wonder, again, if there's not something about Amalia that entails having multiple people or their memories sloshing around in her head.

The Lavinia twist was quite a surprise, and really makes one wonder about what she means with "war". Is she, too, of the view that Massen has that this was an attack? Or is it that she's trying to discover how it all works to be able to build an army to wage war against... what? Other nations? Against the forces keeping women down in the UK? I recall her line about how the fête they were attending would have a number of men of "influence".... and a number of women of real influence. Could Lavinia be a representative of a secret cabal of women, perhaps working for Victoria (who has still not been mentioned except in passing, and indirectly, in the newspaper article Massen was flipping through), who are also guiding and protecting the British Empire? Very curious. Presumably she wants to keep the Touched as seeming harmless and docile to not interfere with her intentions to weaponize them down the road.

Finally, perhaps the biggest detail was when Désirée (the living Lasso of Truth lady) got Amalia to talking, and Amalia gets to the point of saying that Maladie doesn't understand what Mary's turn is, that "Mary is the voice of the gala--" when she realizes what is happening. Argh! The voice of ... the galactic consciousness? The galactic federation? Just the galaxy? Some alien species whose name start with 'gala'? And on top of that, before that bit, Amalia complained that she had a bunch of street maps for a place she's not even from....

The idea that among the persons or people in her head/body is an alien (or a far future person) seems stronger. Maybe. 

Honestly, this is shaping up really well, IMO. It was a bit of a slower episode, and there were a couple of scenes that felt a little long, but on the whole it's done a very good job. One thing Linda realized is that with the pace in which these big reveals and twists are happening, by the end of the first season the show may take a radically different direction as the story you thought you were watching is just swept away by something new.

 

ETA: Apparently, those who have English CC -- HBO Nordic doesn't include it -- screencapped it and it actually says 'voice of the Galan--', including the capital G. From past experience, close captioners receive actual scripts, so it seems likely that's straight from the script. Sounds like an alien species name, or perhaps the name of the ship?

 

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

Honestly, I was surprised that they didn't really introduce any new storylines, per se, just began expanding on what they had revealed to date. Well, except for one thing:

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The fact that Maladie and Amalia know one another as Molly and Sarah is certainly a new plot turn, although I think it may not be as straightforward as it seems. How can Amalia have looked at all her records without recognizing her? Unless it's not that she didn't recognize her, it's that she did but didn't think Maladie recognied her... which makes me wonder, again, if there's not something about Amalia that entails having multiple people or their memories sloshing around in her head.

The Lavinia twist was quite a surprise, and really makes one wonder about what she means with "war". Is she, too, of the view that Massen has that this was an attack? Or is it that she's trying to discover how it all works to be able to build an army to wage war against... what? Other nations? Against the forces keeping women down in the UK? I recall her line about how the fête they were attending would have a number of men of "influence".... and a number of women of real influence. Could Lavinia be a representative of a secret cabal of women, perhaps working for Victoria (who has still not been mentioned except in passing, and indirectly, in the newspaper article Massen was flipping through), who are also guiding and protecting the British Empire? Very curious. Presumably she wants to keep the Touched as seeming harmless and docile to not interfere with her intentions to weaponize them down the road.

Finally, perhaps the biggest detail was when Désirée (the living Lasso of Truth lady) got Amalia to talking, and Amalia gets to the point of saying that Maladie doesn't understand what Mary's turn is, that "Mary is the voice of the gala--" when she realizes what is happening. Argh! The voice of ... the galactic consciousness? The galactic federation? Just the galaxy? Some alien species whose name start with 'gala'? And on top of that, before that bit, Amalia complained that she had a bunch of street maps for a place she's not even from....

The idea that among the persons or people in her head/body is an alien (or a far future person) seems stronger. Maybe. 

Honestly, this is shaping up really well, IMO. It was a bit of a slower episode, and there were a couple of scenes that felt a little long, but on the whole it's done a very good job. One thing Linda realized is that with the pace in which these big reveals and twists are happening, by the end of the first season the show may take a radically different direction as the story you thought you were watching is just swept away by something new.

 

ETA: Apparently, those who have English CC -- HBO Nordic doesn't include it -- screencapped it and it actually says 'voice of the Galan--', including the capital G. From past experience, close captioners receive actual scripts, so it seems likely that's straight from the script. Sounds like an alien species name, or perhaps the name of the ship?

 

hmm, that is very interesting.

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I had not considered the alien angle, despite the ship. Based on how the ship largely disintegrated, I think it was a seeding process. All those flakes could have been alien lifeforms, which now live as symbionts in the humans they affected. 

So Messen's attack theory could be somewhat correct, but it may not be an attack, more of the last gamble of a dying race trying to continue its existence.

 

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Are the spoiler marked comments about episode 2 or all six episodes released to reviewers?

Also, I just read that they're splitting season one into two six-episode parts, with the second half being released later in the year. Considering the reviews about too many characters/storylines, this doesn't sound  like a good move. Imagine if they put GOT season one on hold after Ned is wounded and arrested.

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20 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

Are the spoiler marked comments about episode 2 or all six episodes released to reviewers?

Also, I just read that they're splitting season one into two six-episode parts, with the second half being released later in the year. Considering the reviews about too many characters/storylines, this doesn't sound  like a good move. Imagine if they put GOT season one on hold after Ned is wounded and arrested.

The episodes are released on a weekly basis, so my spoilers are only about the first two episodes. 

I agree that it's a risky move, but I wonder if it had to do with the production schedule. Another show I've watched, Superman & Louis on CWis currently halted, because they had to pause production during the pandemic, so we only got 5 episodes so far.

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Yeah, no one outside of reviewers (who saw the first 4 episodes) has seen more than 2, and certainly no one here has seen more than the 2 episodes released to date.

The splitting does seem to be due to the production schedule being thrown out of whack.

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So Amalia's premonitions are not something she can control but activate at random intervals. Is it always the same amount of time forward from the present time I wonder? The glimpses, from our perspective, also appear to be unreliable as one vision during the opera showed Maladie climbing up the balcony towards her when that never materialised. So it's only possible future events she sees of herself at a given location. I wonder too if she has more than one power given her fighting skills and pummelling Maladie but that could be the result of growing up in the streets. It's possible that Amalia was originally called Molly and faked her name (or killed someone influential and acquired their identity) to improve her lot in life. Although in the paper Massen was holding it said Amalia was a "Butcher's widow," so it does make you wonder how she came into contact with the likes of Lavinia.

 

Interesting factoid: Laura Donnelly (who plays Amalia True) performed in a play called the Ferryman, the name of the seedy club Hugo Swann owns.

 

Desirée Blodgett's ability was fun though Amalia seemed to snap out of the spell quite quickly compared to how it worked with the detective. The charm is probably not as effective when it works on Touched. Having her around Lavinia is certainly going to make things awkward…

 

How did Maladie even know Amalia was going to go to that place to rescue Mary and have the ropes set up to hang two people? The only people who knew where Amalia was going was Desirée and Detective Mundi and that was only inferred by the photo. Was capturing Penance deliberate or just lucky coincidence on Maladie's part and she realised she'd captured Amalia's friend? Or perhaps Lavinia had her captured? I assumed at first it was the people who captured the Italian lady who captured Penance and through an intermediary, say the Beggar King, she was handed over to Maladie's group. The whole situation seemed a bit contrived with the only possible explanation being that there is another Touched with similar abilities being used against her.

 

Is it the case Amalia is on all or part of Lavinia's plans? I suspect not because she seems to know something about Mary's power but she doesn't know who is behind the kidnappings of Touched around the city. If Amalia is not aware it's a bit hard for Lavinia keep her intentions of the Orphanage and the secret mining operation with mindless Touched zombies and a crazy American surgeon secret from someone who can predict future glimpses. Then again, that might be why Maladie is allowed free reign to keep Amalia constantly active in catching her since Amalia's glimpses occur only where she is at that time.

 

I wonder how much Maladie is in league with Lavinia, if at all? The former seems too much of a loose cannon to have as a decoy if your intent is to make it easier to acquire more Touched to turn into mindless drones. Why even have the Orphanage when you can capture them at night with mysterious band of thugs and lobotomise them? Or just get the government to round them up and control them via prisons as is probably going to happen if Massen et al gain more power.

 

It's possible Mrs. Bidlow's comment to Augie about Penance was motivated by racist views against people of Irish descent or simply a [misguided] assumption that her brother being affiliated with both a Touched and Irish would damage the reputation of their family in higher British society. Not enough context shown to know whether she was being sincere or not.

 

I do wonder why the alien seed things were predisposed more towards women than men. Is there some attempt to repopulate an alien lifeform through surrogacy and/or whether it was simply happenstance that the alien ship happened to be on Earth at that time and expose humans to some kind of accidental substance and alter humans for some reason (so far there's been no mention in the show of whether children of Touched gain the same abilities or it only affects that one generation). If this only occurred in London I'm surprised there isn't international interest in the phenomenon.

 

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@Sharpes

Good post, and questions.

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.Is it always the same amount of time forward from the present time I wonder? The glimpses, from our perspective, also appear to be unreliable as one vision during the opera showed Maladie climbing up the balcony towards her when that never materialised. So it's only possible future events she sees of herself at a given location.

I definitely think that the length of time is definitely different. When we first see her "ripple", it's literally just a minute or two in the future when she's attacked by the people trying to kidnap Myrtle. When she gets her "ripple" about the opera, that's hours in the future. And yeah, it seems like it's not necessarily the case that she sees exact futures. It may be that Mary's song somehow altered the timeline? It may connect to it being the voice of the Galan-whatever.

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The charm is probably not as effective when it works on Touched.

I think it also has to do with the fact that Amalia knew Désirée was Touched, or at least that she was explicitly telling her this and she didn't initially believe it but the idea was there. Mundi realized why he was babbling when she left and recognized she was Touched as well, which suggests that in the future he'll be more aware of himself and guard his tongue. So it's a power that works well, so long as people don't realize that they're babbling because of an outside agent (a Touched's power).

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How did Maladie even know Amalia was going to go to that place to rescue Mary and have the ropes set up to hang two people? 

Interesting question. My guess is that she knew Amalia would come for her, realized she'd probably figure out where she was at some point, and snatched Penance to create that tableau. The thing is, Maladie seems to have a certain belief that Amalia is the "angel witch" that she's supposed to kill or whatever... and that, combined with her having recognized her as "Molly" back in episode 1 when they fought, seems to make her certain that Amalia and she are one another's nemesis.

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Is it the case Amalia is on all or part of Lavinia's plans?

Interesting! I think .... she may be on to a part of what Lavinia thinks (this "war" stuff) but doesn't realize the depths she's gone to. And, also, I guess this may mean that Lavinia knows something about what's going on with Amalia, but not necessarily the whole story, whatever that may be. 

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I wonder how much Maladie is in league with Lavinia, if at all? 

Zero, is my guess. No connection. Honestly, given that she currently seems to want the Touched to be seen as harmless, I'm guessing she'd rather she'd be out of the picture, even if her distracting Amalia and Penance may be a good thing in her mind. From the episode 3 teaser, it looks like True and Adair will be learning about the fake pamphlets luring Touched persons.

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Or just get the government to round them up and control them via prisons as is probably going to happen if Massen et al gain more power.

I'm definitely of the mind that Lavinia has a very different vision of the Touched and their future than what Massen does.

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I do wonder why the alien seed things were predisposed more towards women than men

Honestly, I think it's genuinely the hats. A lot more men wore head-covering hats on the streets and the spores failed to find exposed skin. It's almost too simple, but it just seems to be what was intended.

The London-only thing is of course interesting because I did see someone argue that, rather than being terrified by them the British government would attempt to leverage them to strengthen the British Empire.

 

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Well, I didn't expect that turn of events.

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I suspect it was Mrs. Bidlow who arranged for that gunner guy to be released. The inspector had way too much plot armor in the scene.

This episode really was the first that felt like there were too many plotlines. I don't care one bit about the Ferryman's storyline, I'm not sure what its purpose is, other than to give us the regular tropes of English decadent high society and Whedon the opportunity to show more nudity.

There are times when this show has a very Harry Potter tone.

 

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We both thought this was a really excellent episode overall, although the multiple threads did lead to a little chopiness here and there. Especially the fight sequence near the end, which was so clever and cool, and of course the unexpected bit that surprised us as well.

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"I wanted purple light, and you gave me a pocket watch!" :rofl: 

Never change, Hugo, you rake. Liked Mundi calling him out for his "panto Moriarty crap".  And speaking of Mundi, that was an unexpected reveal. Probably should have realized something was up, re: Mary's fate, when he and Mary had that heart-to-heart that touched on it...

My assumption is that the brothel is partially there to satisfy the old, "It's not porn, it's HBO" thing that does seem to be a factor in what HBO wants. That said, the hints of Swan's backstory -- dead brother, domineering father -- make me think there's more than meets the eye than his just being a sybarite. 

Amalia's casual dubbing of the device as an amplifier seems like another piece of (circumstancial) evidence that there's an alien or a future human in her head. We're also told about the fact that her own memories are fuzzy about the past, kind of similar to how Maladie's apparently are as well. And now we see that Amalia and Dr. Cousens had an affair that he regrets, an affair she'd be happy to resume.

I agree that it was probably Lavinia who got the guy out, because who else knew about the setup in the park besides the Touched, Lavinia (who gave a meaningful look after being informed by Amalia about the plan), and Mundi (who clearly wasn't in on anything)? Now, why did Lavinia go for that guy? Why not set one of the masked guys on killing her? (And speaking of them, I did not expect the full cyborg look. 

And speaking of Massen, what was that talk about an investment? My one thought is that it's maybe Bonfire Annie becoming a spy for them, although alternatively... is it Odium being sent after Amalia hired work from the government rather than something the Beggar King himself decided on to punish her for her role in losing the opium?

Annnnd, also speaking of Massen, what's in the basement? That was not a rabid dog. Did his daughter end up transforming into something monstrous? This does complicate the idea that there's anything to do with Amalia with what happened to her, I suppose.

Oh, the interrogation scene was good and chilling... and revealed such a sad backstory to Lucy. The anguish at seeing this mad woman murder her own daughter and grandchild willingly, when she killed her own baby by mistake as the first use of her power... man.

I though visually the episode as quite well-directed by David Semel.

I wonder if Myrtle's turn means she understood the (seemingly alien) language that Mary sang in. They did linger on her reaction at one point. 

And now we know why you can't get Odium into a bath. What a cool fight scene that was.

 

Edited by Ran
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1 hour ago, Ran said:
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The title of this video is, IMO, likely wrong, but regardless, for anyone who wants to know what fight we're talking about, here it is. Such a cool concept.

That's a very weird title for

killing someone in self-defense.

Who else in this cast of characters may be Touched? They said in the commentary for episode 1 that they deliberately kept some of the characters off-screen so we wouldn't know if they are Touched or not.

We now know for sure Mundi is not. Massen didn't seem to react to the song in episode 1, for the short time we saw him. Hugo Swann? We didn't see him. Who else was there? Lavinia? Now that would be too weird.

I didn't see think there were 'too many plots'. Sounds like they are just looking for a reason to complain. You could say the same about a number of SciFi and fantasy shows. Shadow and Bone is getting praised, and I'm u[ to episode 3 and the main two plots haven't even connected yet, and there's a third subplot being introduced.

The cast is great and the characters are already all interesting after 3 episodes. I especially love Laura Donnelly as Amalia - I already liked her on Outlander, and it's great to see her as a lead. (Unlike Shadow and Bone, where my main problem is the  really bland and uninteresting lead. Both in terms of the chaacter and actress.)  I just hope Hugo Swann becomes more than a stereotype. But he did show some hints of layers in episode 2 with his hinted backstory.

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