HBO's THE NEVERS to air in April 2021

[IFR]

I watched the first episode and was rather disappointed. The setting is very exciting to me. Only 7 years from 1898, Einstein will publish his works on Brownian motion, the photoelectric effect, and special relativity. Rutherford just transferred to Canada to begin his amazing work. The Curies are in the midst of discovering new elements. In just a few years, power grids will start to be established all over Britain.

Add fanciful steampunk tech and it could be a wonderful series.

I felt a bit of dread seeing Whedon's name attached to this show though. I'd love an intelligent approach to this rarely explored setting, and Whedon's entire resume is that of fairly shallow stylism (Avengers, Buffy, Angel, Firefly, etc.). 

But I gave this show a chance. All I can say is Whedon met the expectations one would have for his kind of work.

Oh well. Plenty of interesting speculative fiction in development. Hopefully The Three Body Problem series turns out well.

I'm glad some people are enjoying this though!

[Ran]

@Annara Snow

Spoiler

Quote

That's a very weird title for killing someone in self-defense.

Agreed! Though actually I think it's not even the case that she killed Odium. Think she just choked him out. Will be interesting to see if he was sent by the Beggar King for payback or because this was the "investment" that the council of patriarchs had made.

Quote

We now know for sure Mundi is not. Massen didn't seem to react to the song in episode 1, for the short time we saw him. Hugo Swann? We didn't see him. Who else was there? Lavinia? Now that would be too weird.

Lavinia was hustled away, so it's not impossible. Some wonder if she wasn't actually healed and can walk, but has continued to keep it hidden because it would reveal she's Touched. I mean, that would give her another motive to have Mary killed, since the reaction everyone has to the song suggests that it'd be obvious she could hear it.

Quote

 I just hope Hugo Swann becomes more than a stereotype. But he did show some hints of layers in episode 2 with his hinted backstory.

I agree on the cast being all-around great. Swann, besides the hints in the second episode, one might read his retort to the departing Frank Mundi that it was only the first time that he was drunk when they had their fling. The way he delivers it and the way he looks right after suggests he has some sort of mixed feelings about Mundi's behavior towards him.

@IFR

Yes, I don't think that was ever going to be a steampunk show that seriously dealt with the science of the era. It's more pulp Victoriana than that. 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Ran

[Corvinus85]

18 hours ago, IFR said:

Oh well. Plenty of interesting speculative fiction in development. Hopefully The Three Body Problem series turns out well.

Not with D+D at the helm.

[Ran]

10 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Not with D+D at the helm.

I don't think there's been any news at all on it since it was announced. Well, other than one of the Chinese producers being poisoned by a co-worker. 

I imagine it's still very early in development.

[john]

Steampunk seems like the epitome of “shallow stylism” to me. I don’t know how you could have a show marrying steampunk to actual Victorian era science.

Yes, excellent episode. For the first time it felt to me like an HBO show (too much like an HBO show in the Ferryman scene) and not like a better than average network tv procedural.

Spoiler

Some great stuff about Mundi, his hatred for himself and his hope he might be touched to explain his wrongness.

The mystery of Amalia and her memories continues to intrigue. I wondered if every time she gets a rippling one of her actual memories disappears, leading to her forgetting Maladie and apparently her time in the sanatorium. She also mentions how she woke up knowing things she wasn’t supposed to, which does suggest her fighting abilities, as well as her general attitude, might come from her touch.

I was somewhat confused, both by the fact that the Beggar King decided to just attack Amalia, he must have been oddly confident in his man. And also (presumably) Miss Bidelow arranging the attack in the park. Only Mundi and Bidelow knew about it outside the orphanage so surely True and Penance are going to know who was behind it. And it seemed to work anyway with all the new arrivals at the end, how did they know where to go anyway? I guess whoever was watching the address on the flyer could have sent them to the orphanage.

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by john

[IFR]

@john

I think there's a lot of potential to go beyond, yes, shallow stylism. I wasn't expecting a rigorous exploration of the dissonance of the known science at the time and the fantastical elements, but I was hoping for...something. 

Characters openly violate principles of thermodynamics with their powers - powers which were imbued to them by potentially extraterrestrial sources that clearly have extraordinary capabilities. And there's a character who is the preeminent inventor of that era, capable of technology many decades ahead of its time.

I was hoping for a story in which society would naturally react or evolve based on this. Instead you get the pointlessly skeptical administrators who preposterously declare these extraordinary abilities that clearly outstrip the government's own technology as originating from some enemy state? And as for the conventional citizens, they seem wary and slightly bemused by all this, but otherwise elicit no real reaction?

That to me is a failing. Furthermore, the show indulges too much in the popular crowd pleasing trope of endowing the protagonists with the cutting edge 21st century morality and the antagonists with the antiquated morality of that time, which I also consider a very simplistic approach in storytelling.

But you have me ranting! The show was clearly not intended for me. It's all subjective, so I am glad some people find it to their liking. I'll simply search elsewhere for entertainment.

[Cashless Society]

9 hours ago, IFR said:

I was hoping for a story in which society would naturally react or evolve based on this. Instead you get the pointlessly skeptical administrators who preposterously declare these extraordinary abilities that clearly outstrip the government's own technology as originating from some enemy state? And as for the conventional citizens, they seem wary and slightly bemused by all this, but otherwise elicit no real reaction?

 

That to me is a failing. Furthermore, the show indulges too much in the popular crowd pleasing trope of endowing the protagonists with the cutting edge 21st century morality and the antagonists with the antiquated morality of that time, which I also consider a very simplistic approach in storytelling.

To the bolded, I'm pretty sure most modern established storytelling conventions for visual media would prevent this from happening, wouldn't you usually find those aspects explored more in novels? Besides, how many successful movies and tv shows can you name that actually follow through with the setting that they've chosen? (Also, it doesn't necessarily have limited to the SF/F genre).

[IFR]

@Cashless Society

You make a perfectly valid point. It is rare for shows to follow through with their chosen setting. Not to turn the conversation too far away from the main topic, but I'll list a few that I think satisfy this standard.

Before proceeding, I do want to note that this is of course my preference (and I'm not always consistent with this preference: I like James Bond, and that's not exactly renowned as a realistic exploration of MI6). I really do think it's wonderful that others are enjoying this show. I never understood the attitude that just because I don't like a show, everyone else must dislike it too or they are wrong and their taste is awful.

But to the list. Since you allowed for non scifi: The Wire, Deadwood, Band of Brothers, The Sopranos, Chernobyl, and Mad Men, off the top of my head. All of these shows did a great job of exploring their setting in a very believable fashion.

To include scifi: Game of Thrones (for a time) and Dark. I mentioned The Three Body Problem series earlier - the entire identity of that story is the constant reaction and evolution of human society to its environment. While I don't share Corvinus85's cynicism at the capabilities of Benioff and Weiss in adapting the work (although I can understand why someone would lose trust after the manner in which Game of Thrones ended), Ran makes a good point in that we don't know how the production of the show will turn out.

Most of these shows, you'll note, are from HBO. HBO had a track record of taking a genre and reinventing it by creating the best version of that genre on television. This gave me some hope for The Nevers, despite Whedon's involvement. Unfortunately, I think the direction of HBO is changing. The Nevers, from what I saw, would fit comfortably in the CW roster. It has pretty good special effects, but it is, as Ran calls it, pulp Victoriana.

I do think you are right though that what I'm looking for is more suited to books. I think I'll make a lit thread on this. Good idea!

Edited April 28, 2021 by IFR

[Corvinus85]

On 4/27/2021 at 7:18 PM, IFR said:

@john

I think there's a lot of potential to go beyond, yes, shallow stylism. I wasn't expecting a rigorous exploration of the dissonance of the known science at the time and the fantastical elements, but I was hoping for...something. 

Characters openly violate principles of thermodynamics with their powers - powers which were imbued to them by potentially extraterrestrial sources that clearly have extraordinary capabilities. And there's a character who is the preeminent inventor of that era, capable of technology many decades ahead of its time.

I was hoping for a story in which society would naturally react or evolve based on this. Instead you get the pointlessly skeptical administrators who preposterously declare these extraordinary abilities that clearly outstrip the government's own technology as originating from some enemy state? And as for the conventional citizens, they seem wary and slightly bemused by all this, but otherwise elicit no real reaction?

That to me is a failing. Furthermore, the show indulges too much in the popular crowd pleasing trope of endowing the protagonists with the cutting edge 21st century morality and the antagonists with the antiquated morality of that time, which I also consider a very simplistic approach in storytelling.

But you have me ranting! The show was clearly not intended for me. It's all subjective, so I am glad some people find it to their liking. I'll simply search elsewhere for entertainment.

Natural evolution of a society due to a explosion of something new still takes a long time to change, and it will have its many detractors over the course of its evolution. The story is only 3 years after the event. And that event was actually forgotten by practically everyone with the exception of one, maybe a few individuals. 

This does follow a common trope of the British Empire at the height of its power becoming complacent, with the conservatives wanting to keep things as they are.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Corvinus85

[IFR]

@Corvinus85

I would say that when Joss Whedon conceived of this series, he had an idea of a kickass group of Xmen, comprised of mostly women, who went around beating up comic book baddies in Victorian age England. Cool mysteries, a sweet steampunk atmosphere, and witty dialogue are the forefront considerations, and if practicalities consequent of this scenario can be easily dealt with, they will be, but if they interfere too much with the fun of the series then they will be waved aside. I think the show is pretty clearly presenting itself thus, and it's not much of a controversy to call a spade a spade in this instance. So I don't know if there is much dialog on this matter to be had regarding this particular aspect of the show.

However, I really do like the point you made about the complacent British Empire, even in the face of the most important anthropological event in human history. This is indeed a common tv trope, and while I do not want to divert discussion from the show itself, I think it would be fun to briefly entertain the idea.

Civilizations generally are slow to transition. However, I think it's worth pointing out that this particular time was the beginning of the age of information. Two years from the show's setting, Max Planck will be experimenting on the nature of blackbody radiation and trying to resolve the ultraviolet catastrophe, a failing of classical mechanics. A curve fitting later (to put it simplistically) and you have the beginning of quantum mechanics. Within two decades quantum mechanics has encountered considerable development (without scientists even being cognizant of the neutron!), and, independently, the science of general relativity had been developed. By the 1930s the neutron was discovered and more progress had been made in the understanding of the atom in that short span than the entire preceding history of science. Much of the scientific progress was made in the UK. And a lot of this was based entirely on theoretical grounds, since the tools to experimentally verify the mathematics simply didn't exist.

And speaking of the neutron -  in 1938 Otto Hahn and Lisa Meitner powerfully demonstrated the phenomenon of nuclear fission. In just 7 years the staggering undertaking of the Manhattan Project was realized (and all which that entailed - huge complexes to engage in isotopic enrichment of uranium, whether through gaseous diffusion, electromagnetic separation or the burgeoning centrifuge technology; in addition to the reactors developed by Fermi for plutonium production), and then bomb was successfully developed - both the gun assembly and the much more challenging implosion device - to be dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In 7 years! (Btw, The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Rhodes is an excellent book on this.) The UK of course also played an essential part of this process.

Even before WW2, consider WW1. The major source of energy was the burning of biomass and coal. In the span of WW1 crude oil went from a moderately popular source of fuel to the single most important source of energy on the planet. That was just a few years in time. (The Prize by Daniel Yergen is an awesome book on this subject.)

There are many other examples of seismic changes based on simple technology of non-fantastical origins introduced into society (another example: Shockley and company design the bipolar transistor; two decades later humankind reaches the freaking moon). (The Idea Factory by John Gertner is a good book on this.)

Clearly society at this time is highly primed for change.

I have a hard time believing that a widely known phenomenon of people gaining extraordinary powers will have as deflated a reaction as depicted in this show. I mean, really -one person can spontaneously combust the atmosphere! The show doesn't note a huge additional caloric intake to supply this energy, so I'm thinking it's now possible to utilize this power for a perpetual motion machine (many others would arrive to such a conclusion too). And of course the genius inventor, who is content to simply barter her genius to street thugs. No one is coercing her to create this technology in a tech-hungry society, to advance government and business interest? Instead people just want to quell her? I'm skeptical. And this is just listing two of the fantastical abilities. Some would be skeptical, sure - but some would seek to verify, and find that it was very real - and the most significant event in recorded history.

Anyway, that was a bit long of a response for a casual discussion, but what can I say - this a fun subject!

Edited April 29, 2021 by IFR

[Ran]

Juicy episode!

Spoiler

"We don't do that when I'm from." Increasingly clear that Amalia (or rather the person inhabiting Amalia's body) is from the future, a soldier and veteran of some kind of future interstellar war.  I guess there's still a chance the future person is also an alien, but I suspect not. I do think they're part of some sort interstellar, multi-species community, though -- I suspect the ship was an alien, or made and captained by aliens.

People on Reddit  twigged onto this faster than I did, but when looking at the credits for the actress playing the new character, the reporter Effie Boyle -- something about her seemed familiar but I couldn't place her -- I saw her name was Margaret Tuttle. And she has no other credits, and no on-line presence at all. And... that's because she's in fact Amy Manson, aka Maladie. Gosh! It does lead me to think that Maladie wanted Frank to catch her, somehow... Very confusing, anyways, and curious to see where it goes. Is she a twin sister to Maladie? Or was Maladie's Turn actually something that split her into two people, Jekyll and Hyde-like, all along? If you've seen the episode 5 teaser, it definitely seems like Effie is talking to Mundi when Maladie is chained up in prison, so it's not a simple "Maladie in disguise" situation.

Hmm.... unless the Maladie we saw attacking the police chief was in fact not Maladie? It would explain why Frank's bashing her head against a wall a couple of times didn't wake up her powers... Could this somehow be the mad woman that was tagging along with Maladie in previous episodes, the one who believed Maladie could give her a Turn? Maybe some weird use of the Colonel's power to make people believe they're seeing whatever he tells them? Though we didn't see him around, so... don't know. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Massen indirectly admitted to arranging Mary's death. The Lucy turn was more of a surprise, but I twigged to something being up when she mentioned the trophies in his manor. I think that twist was very well handled. I also don't think this is the last we'll see of her, despite Amalia telling her to leave London for good. Suspect she'll show up again in some capacity.

That leaves the mystery of Odium, which they seem to rule out as the Beggar King, but right now I'm guessing this was Lavinia's doing. But why? Has Amalia become too good at her job and she thought to get her out of the way?

Jack Nimble's power was interesting, creating floating crystal(?) plates that defy gravity and can bear his weight. 

The Penance and Augie conversation was the best. Penance channeling some real Data vibes (The Goonies, not Star Trek: The Next Generation) with her recording device frying. 

Oh, a thought that hit me: did Frank Mundi and Hugo Swann first get to know each other from Frank's boxing? We're told Hugo's now-dead brother was quite the fighter... was a gentleman boxer and ran in the same circles, and Hugo tagged along?

The translation of Mary's message was done in pretty much exactly the way that I expected it to be done -- gather a bunch of people with different language knowledge and then just have her repeat sentences over and over until they could patch the meaning together.

Honestly, the critics were largely off the mark. Yes, there's a lot of through-lines in terms of the number of plots that are being juggled, but they are largely being juggled adroitly and it's giving the show a deal of depth.

ETA:

HBO posted the featurette on the previous episode's big fight sequence. Really amazing. Also, funnily, I watched a video featuring Martyn Ford (Odium) talking about his workout routine the other day and did not realize it was him. He is very tattooed (including his head and face), which I guess is part of why Odium's makeup is so "dirty" to help make it easier to cover it up.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Ran

[john]

Spoiler

I didn’t see how it was apparent that Massen was admitting to arranging the murder. Maybe I zoned out in that scene but it seemed like he was just playing the game Amalia told him to play. Then it was immediately confirmed in the next scene and of course with Lucy later. The beacon thing makes a lot of sense though, all the other parties want the touched for various reasons so it would’ve made more sense to kidnap Mary than kill her.

Maladie - yeah, didn’t clock the Effie thing myself but I see it now, that’s a great catch. I did wonder how Mundi was cracking her head off the wall, previously that seemed to make her stronger.

Amalia - if she’s a time traveller/alien soldier that tends to diminish her for me. She’s unusual for a Victorian woman and with a lot in common with the other touched but she would be fairly standard for a future soldier. Plus alien ship underground communicating with the hero seems a bit cliche.

 

[Zorral]

59 minutes ago, john said:

  Hide contents

IAmalia - if she’s a time traveller/alien soldier that tends to diminish her for me. She’s unusual for a Victorian woman and with a lot in common with the other touched but she would be fairly standard for a future soldier. Plus alien ship underground communicating with the hero seems a bit cliche.

 

Ogads if that's how this is gonna roll, I ain't.  Ugh. I've loved Amalia and was so looking forward to more of her.

So I suppose this was a hint (I've only watched 2 episodes so far)

Spoiler

"This isn't my face."

 

[Ran]

Spoiler

Quote

I didn’t see how it was apparent that Massen was admitting to arranging the murder. 

Rewatching, the first thing that we realized is that he didn't actually deny that he was behind it -- he said that he'd have to disappoint Mrs. True, but after she said it'd save her a lot of trouble if he just admitted it. So he seemed unwilling to directly lie. The roleplaying exercise is what gave him away, when he shifted to framing the mastermind as representing Great Britain, which basically means him and the government. No one else could have made that particular leap, I think, and once he presented it that way it was too clear that it was the only answer. I don't know if Massen was outwitted on this point, giving too much away in the exercise, or if he was feeling bold.

Re: Maladie, the thing I noticed about her in the cell and also all the clips they chose to show of her in the episode 5 promo trailer is that you never see her face properly. It's always in shadows or obscured by her hair. Makes me think I'm on to something. I also noticed that IMDB indicates that the actress playing Clara -- the mad follower who was cutting off her toes to try and become Turned -- is appearing in the next episode.

... Wait. Yeah, I think at some point "Maladie" is actually switched for Clara. Because the actress Sylvie Briggs for sure shows up in episode 2 and 3, and is credited in the end credits. For sure she doesn't show up in episode 1, and she's not credited. But... we don't clearly see her anywhere in episode 4, I'm pretty certain, and yet she's credited for the episode. This also fits my realization that when Mundi gives chase, other than the brief moment that she turns and yells at him, her face is always hidden by her hair or turned away from the camera. Was the Colonel somehow able to use his power to suggest Clara was Maladie? Can't see how.... Or is it simpler, and is it that Maladie rolled away left and hid in the doorway we see in one o the shots while Clara was the one who was waiting to sprint away when Mundi landed? I mean, "Maladie" even goes back to make sure he's focused on her before running...

This would explain why this madwoman minion is around, because she seems to serve no purpose other than to show Maladie is crazy as well. But if Maladie had her all along as a possible double, now it makes sense.

As to True's true identity, the "fish out of water" aspect is obviously not a new thing, and having a far future woman(? for all we know, could be a man originally) trapped in a Victorian woman's body is just the sort of thing time travel stories like to play with. OTOH, True does seem to indicate she has some of the original's memories and experiences, as well, so it's not that straightforward. And also... this raises a lot of new questions regarding Dr. Hague, IMO. He's creating cyborgs, some of the equipment he's using does not look turn-of-the-century... could he be a time-traveller as well? Perhaps part of whatever opposing side caused the Gala-whatever to crash into London, and now trying to unlock the secret of how powers were bestowed? Or is this actually all part of a "time war", both side trying to change or maintain a timeline?

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Ran

[Ran]

Oh-ho. Someone made a very smart connection on the subreddit.

Spoiler

First episode, we're introduced to Mundi going down to investigate a woman's body found at the diggings of one of the subways. The foreman tried to pin it on Maladie, so it'd be resolved quickly and not interrupt his work. When Mundi examined the woman... he noticed her fingers were stained with ink.

Speculation runs that this is the real Effie Boyle, and either Maladie really did kill her and the foreman lucked out blaming it on her, or alternatively that Boyle was investigating disappearing women, made her way into the tunnels and came across the remains of the ship, leading her to be killed by Hauge's cyborgs and dumped elsewhere. Either way, Maladie ends up taking her identity, 

 

[Sharpes]

Spoiler

Yeah the Odium fight from last episode was neat and I'm convinced he was the 'investment' Massen and his friends were talking about earlier to carry out their plans. I didn't fully appreciate the complexity of the fight until the behind-the-scenes montage after the credits revealed Odium isn't just walking on the water like a solid platform but bending it around his feet like an insect.

 

Ooh so the Colonel's ability is to bend other people's perception of reality  …hmm, that explains why Dr. Horatio Cousens was confused about the vehicle he stepped into when he encountered an injured Maladie. Ugh it's frustrating me now that I didn't pick up on that. Does that mean the Colonel can affect people as well, like a projected glimmer? It would certainly explain the mystery of Effie Boyle circulating on the subreddit but her clothes, mannerisms and voice were different to how Maladie acts so it's probably just a red herring. Or it was Clara pretending to be Boyle and Maladie broke in (from a window on the second floor?) and attacked the superintendent.

 

I'm not entirely sold on Clara being the body double since she wouldn't be able to run well with her disfigured feet unless the Colonel's ability to bend reality is really that good.

However, given Mundi smashed her head against a wall, which we've seen only empowers Maladie (conveniently not showing her face and the glowing eyes) does make her the likely suspect. Or it really was Maladie the whole time and wanted to be caught. This is all assuming, of course, that the Colonel was even present but I can't see why Maladie wouldn't use his ability to create confusion for the police and mask her getaway. Definitely going to keep an eye out for him in future scenes. If Maladie was literally caught I have a feeling that the Colonel will convince an entire town square that her hanging occurred and whisk her away to safety.

 

Oh Ran, I did see that reddit post about Effie Boyle but it does raise more questions about how the heck Maladie fits into the woman's death (if indeed the identity of Boyle was used to get into the station). It's certainly likely the woman in the subway was onto a lead that would have exposed Lavinia's plans and was disposed of. But did Lavinia put the blame of the murder onto Maladie to deflect attention and how would Maladie know about the woman's identity (maybe she has a mole in the police but Mundi would have recognised the name Effie Boyle when the reporter provided her name when she spoke to him before interrogating the purists).

 

Amalia telling Penance "None. We don't do that when I'm from. We don't have enough time and we don't have enough ground," makes it clear in this scene that she's, whether alien or time traveller, not the consciousness of the original Mrs. True and probably comes from a future on dire straits with overpopulation. By that logic it explains her fighting skills. The past of Mrs. Amalia as the butcher's wife may have just been a convenient backstory so no one could discover and exploit her. The next part Amalia says is a mystery: "I was left here, completely alone, with nothing but a mission I was never actually given. No orders, no objectives. They left me here and they f**ed right off. Maybe they died. Who cares?" Is this referring to her bosses in the future and there was a moment where she could have been recalled but the connection was broken off? Does she even remember the ship crashing or is Maladie the only person who remembers it?

 

The relationship between Amalia and Penance is intriguing from these conversations. The dialogue is very ambiguous in the way Penance addresses her like she knows who she really is and what she's been through. Does she know Amalia as an alien or a time traveller? Or both?

 

And that brings up another thing about Maladie (or is it Sarah?). Is she another time traveller too but due to the mental condition of the woman being taken to the asylum there was a blending of consciousnesses and her vocal outbursts is their way of fighting for control of the same body. One might be motivated by inflicting vengeance on the doctors who experimented on her, the other trying to find the ship (i.e. God as her mind perceives it as). I dunno, I'm probably reaching here. I do think Amalia and Maladie are connected by their otherness to the 19th century and they may have had different missions to go back in time.

 

There was a theory going around that Lord Massen's daughter's Turn is to inhabit other people and the drowned Mrs Amalia became an available host to inhabit but her mannerisms would have ended up being more childlike giving away the ruse too easily, especially when she had to interact with Massen.

 

[Werthead]

Quote

 

JOSS WHEDON: "So an alien spaceship flies over and drops spores over the city and it turns people into superbeings!"

HBO: "That sounds cool, how about we..."

<knock at the door, GEORGE RR MARTIN enters, wielding a lead-filled baseball bat>

GEORGE RR MARTIN: "Pardon?"

 

 

[Ran]

Apparently JMS's Rising Stars also has some similarity with a particular aspect of the show. I don't think there's any real influence there, as it's pretty clear other than the "lets come up with a way to have a lot of superpowered people" thing it seems to be going in a very different direction from either of those projects.

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Ran

[Lord Varys]

Aren't the GRRM ripoffs not striking in that show - the Beggar King, the Wild Cards allusions,

Spoiler

an awkward guy being able to control birds whose sister happens to sit in a wheelchair.

It could have been less subtle but it is there.

Aside from that, Whedon's even recycling his own ideas, namely, giantess Dawn.

[Zorral]

Eps 3 & 4, what this “Panto Moriarty”?  Mary’s Song brings All the Slayers; Victims are not who the Touched are, declares Amalia; No one is quite as barbaric as the well-to-do; Myrtle’s pan glossalia becomes Charades + Panto – can't get more English than that!  (As well as all the actors who are in this show -- so many of them I've seen so many times in so many English television productions -- though Donnelly I knew from Outlander, which isn't a British production, but it is shot in the UK, as well as quite a few other places like Paris, South Africa, Prague.) 

Still wondering why this thing is called "The Nevers."  What are the nevers? never-ending? never tRump? never-dying? never fairly treated? never in power?

Edited May 6, 2021 by Zorral