HBO's THE NEVERS to air in April 2021

[Ran]

Did like the Panto Moriarty line. 

It does have a lot of recognizable UK actors. Ben Chaplin's been particularly good as Mundi.

[Annara Snow]

19 hours ago, Ran said:

Did like the Panto Moriarty line. 

It does have a lot of recognizable UK actors. Ben Chaplin's been particularly good as Mundi.

A lot of recognizable UK actors, plus a recognizable US actor (Denis O'Hare).

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

A lot of recognizable UK actors, plus a recognizable US actor (Denis O'Hare).

Yep. Still waiting to learn more about him. I was rewatching his introduction and

Spoiler

And his equipment really looks awfully modern. Just look at the surgical lamp -- no way they had those in the turn of the century. A quick Google at antique surgical lamps suggests it's a design from maybe the late 40s to 50s. The dental drill setup also looked more 50s than turn of the century.

And there's one more thing. In episode 2, when referring to the alien rock thing lighting up, he says, "Ain't we got fun". Which is a very specific phrase and title from a 1920s song that was one of the hallmarks of the Roaring Twenties, which went on to be re-recordered by the likes of Doris Day, Bob Hope, and Bing Crosby through the 60s.

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Ran

[Zorral]

Steampunk = ahistorical references = cute?

[Werthead]

It was filmed in Britain, much of it in London using the "usual suspect" streets; streets which have mostly been left unchanged since the late 19th Century; all they need to do is take down a few incongruous signs and away you go. It's amusing because you can see many of the exact same streets were used in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Werthead said:

It was filmed in Britain, much of it in London using the "usual suspect" streets; streets which have mostly been left unchanged since the late 19th Century; all they need to do is take down a few incongruous signs and away you go. It's amusing because you can see many of the exact same streets were used in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.

There must be tours of those old areas, right? The times we went to London, we never got around to those areas, but it'd be nice to do so some day.

[Cashless Society]

I'm a little confused on the whole Molly and Sarah aspect of this show:

Spoiler

I was under the impression that Amalia was the one who tipped off the authorities as to the whereabouts of Maladie which resulted in Maladie being committed and that's why Amalia tried to commit suicide. But now with this episode where these two might be from the future and some vague mission for Amalia has really thrown me off. Does anyone have a theory that can reconcile these opposing points?

 

[Ran]

@Cashless Society

Spoiler

I can see how you got that impression looking the relevant dialog:

Quote

Amalia: Oh, God, I didn't know what happened to you. I thought...

Maladie: What happened? You fed me to them. I woke up every morning in their teeth that chewed me. Cut me. Raped me into tiny bits and then put me back and then ground me up and then put me back. And then two whole years of screaming while you dined on beef and ground it up and never cared and never looked. You said you were my friend!

Amalia: I'm sorry. I didn't have a choice.

Maladie: ( sobs ) Because you had a mission.

 

I think the last bit is the important one, though, in establishing the timing. As Amalia has revealed, initially she was so confused that they thought her crazy and she ended up being put in the madhouse... and Maladie was already there. They became friends, and Dr. Cousens seems to have been working there and knows them both from that time. But then what seems to have happened was that Amalia made an escape, and either had promised to take Maladie with her or possibly ended up trying to do so and then having to abandon her (maybe even in such a way as to distract them so she could get out).

Either way, I think that's what we're supposed to take to mean about Amlia having "fed" Maladie to them. 

So, Sarah (Maladie) was a mentally ill young woman of the era, Molly was a widow of the era. The Event happens, Sarah's madness leads her to remember it when everyone else forgets, either way she's thrown in the madhouse. Molly comes back to life as Amalia, a warrior from what appears to be the future, but is confused and is also thrown into the madhouse. She understands she has some sort of mission, at least once she gets her bearings, and is driven to do it at any cost... even if it means leaving behind the woman she befriended.

 

[Annara Snow]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

@Cashless Society

  Hide contents

I can see how you got that impression looking the relevant dialog:

I think the last bit is the important one, though, in establishing the timing. As Amalia has revealed, initially she was so confused that they thought her crazy and she ended up being put in the madhouse... and Maladie was already there. They became friends, and Dr. Cousens seems to have been working there and knows them both from that time. But then what seems to have happened was that Amalia made an escape, and either had promised to take Maladie with her or possibly ended up trying to do so and then having to abandon her (maybe even in such a way as to distract them so she could get out).

Either way, I think that's what we're supposed to take to mean about Amlia having "fed" Maladie to them. 

So, Sarah (Maladie) was a mentally ill young woman of the era, Molly was a widow of the era. The Event happens, Sarah's madness leads her to remember it when everyone else forgets, either way she's thrown in the madhouse. Molly comes back to life as Amalia, a warrior from what appears to be the future, but is confused and is also thrown into the madhouse. She understands she has some sort of mission, at least once she gets her bearings, and is driven to do it at any cost... even if it means leaving behind the woman she befriended.

 

Spoilers for Dollhouse (season 2) -

The history they have reminds me a little bit (just a little bit) of 

Spoiler

Bennett's resentment against Caroline and the way she obsesses over it.

 

[Ran]

Episode 5 was not as revelatory as I had hoped it might be, but obviously episode 6 -- mid-season finale -- is going to be a doozy. Spoilers follow:

Spoiler

Pat on the back to me for recognizing that Maladie was fake and that in fact it was the mad woman Clara. Did not see her hanging herself, but this makes sense -- she would do anything to get powers, and if Maladie said that was the way, there it goes. Also sharp-eyed redditors who picked up on Effie being Maladie, good on them. Liked that ending.

I really liked the conflict between Amalia and Penance in this episode, and the fault lines that it showed. It also hinted at the idea that Amalia and the Touched may be where they are because of trying to do something with the present timeline so as to save the future. This is just Penance's idea, apparently -- Amalia says she doesn't really know at all what the mission might be -- but it's an interesting one.

And now we get that that the Galan- thing is the Galanthi. Which apparently people would have known long ago if they looked at IMDB, because there has been a woman listed as 'Galanthi digger'. Interestingly, Galanthi is Latin for 'Snowdrop', though in this case I suspect it is the name of the creature/ship-that-was-a-creature or rather of its species. Or something.

We get confirmation that Massen tricked Odium into going after Amalia, as well, though that started to seem more obvious. And Lavinia... Lavinia is complicated. She wants a cure for the Touched, and is willing to have Touched people lobotomized and men turned into nasty cyborgs, but she seems to see it as necessary evil rather than doing it out of real maliciousness. I do wonder about her headache, presumably from having seen the pulses of light; a sign that she actually is Touched herself but doesn't want anyone to know? And what to make of Dr. Hague looking at it straight on without protection at the end?

Speaking of him, I am now less certain about his being from the future, despite the oddly out-of-period touches. He spoke about the contemporary US and he spoke about contemporary victims of Maladie as if they were people he knew. Hmm... But still, the equipment did not look right for 1900s. I don't know what to make of it. It'd be weird if they got those details wrong when they get so many other period details right.

Episode 6 teaser is cut very quickly to leave a lot up in the air, but it seems Amalia will be coming out of the failed mission trying to figure out who the "true" enemy is.  There'll also be a flashback to when Lavinia meets Amalia in the madhouse and seemingly recruits her.

Finally, LOLed at the Penance-Augie scene when he discovered there was absolutely no right answer. Tom Ridley's expression just before Amalia comes in and saves him was perfect. 

Ooooh, but that reminds me, Cousens and True being back to their affair despite his guilt and shame over betraying his wife. Are we to take it that Cousens believes that they are driven to extreme distraction by one another is not entirely of their own volition, but possibly a sign that whatever makes them Touched gives them some deep connection? Like if Cousens's Touched powers comes from the soul-or-whatever of Amalia's lover, so he basically can't help himself? Or is he just hoping that's why he can't keep it in his pants? Will be interesting to see what comes of that part of it.

Finally, a long video from Bernadette Banner, a popular Youtuber that I've never heard of before but who appears to be an expert on historical clothing, with a particular focus on the clothing of the era The Nevers is set in. It's actually sponsored by HBO Max, with the provisio that she'd be speaking honestly about historical details on the show and how they sometimes differ from reality. Long but cool-seeming:

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Ran

[Cashless Society]

Thanks for clearing things up @Ran. As for this episode

Spoiler

I'm now convinced that Lavinia is also one of the touched (have we ever seen her in a scene that's just her on her own?)

Amalia and Cousens resuming their affair just feel satisfying, all we got was one scene in a previous episode where they discuss it and then bam next episode their together again.

3 hours ago, Ran said:

Dr. Hague spoke about the contemporary US and he spoke about contemporary victims of Maladie as if they were people he knew.

I assumed that people working in the same profession would be in correspondence with each other; sharing ideas, findings etc. What would be the equivalent of a research conference during this era?

Also, the execution of Maladie/Clara felt really small scale for what it was. I was glad to see that they had much grander plans in the inside the episode segment but had to scale it way down during production due to Covid-19 restrictions.

 

[Ran]

@Cashless Society

Spoiler

Quote

I assumed that people working in the same profession would be in correspondence with each other; sharing ideas, findings etc. What would be the equivalent of a research conference during this era?

I'm referring to my theory that Hague is actually from the future, just like Amalia. But I suppose one answer is that he has not actually told Lavinia, who also seems to not realize that Amalia is from the future. 

I did not know that about the Inside the Episode. Looks like it's on Youtube, going to check it out.

 

Here's a second sponsored video from a historical dress expert, BTW, for those interested:

 

[Corvinus85]

It's nice to see a few things confirmed, but at this point I feel they're dragging the reveal of other secrets, mainly Amalia's.

Spoiler

Just about everyone figured out she is not from that timeline.

I spent half the time trying to figure out what the Galanthi was, then after the episode, just like Ran, I googled it. My confusion was exacerbated by the fact that this episode did a time skip, and I thought I had missed something. This show has odd pacing. I hope the next episode shows the 'meanwhile' part of Amalia's group when they go digging. Because that looked like a good fight, too. I would be pissed if they don't. I liked that Mundi figured out quickly the whole thing about Maladie. 

Ultimately, while I enjoy the show, I am upset that I didn't realize we're only getting half the season now, and they're changing show runners, which is probably good because of Whedon, but maybe bad because the new show runner doesn't seem to have much experience. My point is I wouldn't have stuck with HBO Max up until now, and would have waited for at least the second half of the season to commence.

 

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Galanthi was, then after the episode, just like Ran, I googled it.

Spoiler

To be clear, I knew they meant the ship, because of the Galan- thing back from episode 2 where True stopped herself when she encountered Desiree. But what Galanthi means, yes, that took googling, and I stumbled across the actress with the title that way.

They will definitely be giving us the Amalia side of the events in the next episode, 100% guaranteed given that the teaser shows snippets of it.

As far as the pacing goes, I have a concern that when this episode was going to film, Whedon was embroiled in the matters that we know of, and had a feeling that the show might not survive. So they have, perhaps, greatly accelerated things from this point on to try and give some sort of complete-ish story in the first season. We won't know until the final episodes, I guess.  Shades of Dollhouse, though that show at least had two seasons...

 

 

[Sharpes]

Whoa, that was a leap in time from last episode but fun nonetheless.
 

Spoiler

We didn't get to see Augie use his birds :( (and what use would he be underground with Amalia? He can only control corvids not bats as well)

 

Yeah, the months between episode 4 and 5 leaves a lot of development missing or alluded to in conversation at the Orphanage and with [fake]Maladie's trial. As I understand it, there were issues pertaining to the production that had to be cut or moved due to covid. In spite of the odd jump in time I did enjoy this episode. Just to list some that come to mind:

 

• Augie becoming more involved with the orphanage and is involved in the plans to retrieve the Galanthi
• The introduction and reaction of the restrictions on the Touched
• Horatio and his resolution to not sleep with Amalia dissolving
• Harriet and her fiancé arguing and a better development of their relationship
• A second meeting and formal introduction of Nimble Jack by Annie to the crew.
• Everyone at the Orphanage was told about the Galanthi but Amalia left out important details; this is inferred when  Desiree says ''I guess maybe the Galanthi will [bring peace to London]. Whatever they are.' when reading the paper.

 

The show seems to imply that everyone but Maladie remembers the ship…and yet Penance and Amalia seem to know a lot about its existence, the history between 'Molly' and 'Sarah', Amalia's frustration of not having a mission, being abandoned by 'them'. There is so much material left out and yet Amalia and Maladie seem to know they are different from other Touched, possibly possessing bodies and exist from another era.

 

I still think it's plausible whoever sent Amalia (and presumably Maladie) back in time used alien technology and it has many unknown qualities that weren't accounted for.

 

I think we know Lavinia's true power. She can't help herself from getting into other people's gossip. :P She is a tricky one. Despite her claims, she has very similar views as Massen's on the Touched, with the difference being that she knows what likely caused the Turns whereas he's still searching for the hand that holds the hilt. They both speak about war, they both consider it the enemy. But until the fifth episode, she was hoping Dr. Hague would find a cure to what she sees as an affliction. This is the reason why she had rehabilitated the orphanage, because she wanted to help the Touched, to cure them with her so called charitable views. It is interesting we haven't seen her reaction to Mary's death given Amalia would have told her the significance of her ability. Instead, we are only shown an appearance at the funeral with no further interactions or speculations on Amalia/Penance's part about Lavinia. We now know Mary's death was instigated by Massen and his council, and perhaps conducted outside their knowledge, Massen got Odium to kill Amalia and failed. I wouldn't at all be surprised Amalia told Lavinia of her plan to go underground to reach the Galanthi and was foiled when her side is portrayed in episode 6.

 

Okay, so Massen managed to convince our Jesus Mountain-cousin Odium, one of the Beggar King's most important henchman, to attack Amalia and nearly got him killed. I got the sense that the Beggar King wasn't in on this until after the attack.
 

At the mining site there looks like a speargun aimed at the glowy thing, which wasn't invented until the 1930s.

 

Why was Hugo on the ground during the execution? Something to do with what Maladie (Effie Boyle) whispered to him?

 

Mundi twigged onto Maladie's ruse pretty quick. It still doesn't explain how Maladie attacked the superintendent to draw out Mundi and was wearing different clothes (a red coat and her normal, dirty gown). We didn't see her bring a bag with her to the police station so I guess we have to assume she came in pretending to be Effie Boyle, inquired about Mary's death and walked out, passed by an alley and clark-kented herself into Maladie and climbed up the building? She also seemed to pass herself of as a normal person pretty well.

 

[Annara Snow]

Spoiler

Maladie being able to pass as a normal person implies that she's far more rational than she appeared - and that her exaggerated "crazy" look and persona is to a degree a deliberately constructed image and performance.

Clara, on the other hand, probably didn't need to do much pretending. 

 

 

[Ran]

@Sharpes

Spoiler

Quote

Mundi twigged onto Maladie's ruse pretty quick. It still doesn't explain how Maladie attacked the superintendent to draw out Mundi and was wearing different clothes (a red coat and her normal, dirty gown).

I think people pointed out that there were probably hours between "Effie Boyle's" conversation with Mundi and then Maladie's attack on the superintendant, so not such a big issue.

The harpoon cannon was invented in the late 1800s, so that's not an issue. Here's an https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/539683/viewengraving dating to 1897, for example.

 

@Annara Snow

Indeed.

[john]

Spoiler

Right, I’ll need to stop reading Ran’s speculation, it’s so accurate that it’s indistinguishable from a spoiler.  Although I think I would probably have guessed this ep with Effie being a bit off.

The episode was ok, I thought some things didn’t flow so well. Why is the big deal specifically over it being a public execution? It seemed a bit of a tortured way to bend the plot. Like if it was in private as the law allows would Penance have cared? And the plan doesn’t work without these specific combinations of powers that were assembled just before (including the new fighty woman Amalia told to go). And how did Maladie know about it in advance anyway?

I enjoyed the conversation with the beggar king and Massen, that was the kind of GoT style stand off they often seem to try for. The sex scenes leave me cold, it’s just an abrupt moment where you realise oh yeah it’s supposed to be an adult show.

I don’t know if Maladie is acting crazy, it could be she just has access to mad Sarah as Amalia has access to Molly. Or it could be she has no interest in the mysterious purpose.

The timeline of Molly and Sarah is confusing. They surely had to be friends before they were touched. But  it seems they were put in the asylum after being touched. Ran’s theory that there was two different asylum stays works but it seems kind of a messy explanation for a tv show.

 

[Corvinus85]

27 minutes ago, john said:

  Hide contents

Why is the big deal specifically over it being a public execution? It seemed a bit of a tortured way to bend the plot. Like if it was in private as the law allows would Penance have cared? And the plan doesn’t work without these specific combinations of powers that were assembled just before (including the new fighty woman Amalia told to go). And how did Maladie know about it in advance anyway?

 

Spoiler

In a country that had outlawed public executions, they decided it's ok to give the masses a show by executing someone who is basically a member of a minority group.

 

[john]

Spoiler

Who is a mass murderer, yes. But why does the addition of the public element suddenly make it unconscionable? The Empire lot wanted to stoke tensions between touched and untouched, Maladie wanted the same. Penance wanted to save Maladie which would also have stoked those tensions. There’s no resolving it. I mean, yes it’s wrong that the touched are treated differently from other citizens but it doesn’t follow that it demands action that way.

Why doesn’t Penance want to break out the touched who are imprisoned for not wearing their blue ribbon? That would be more laudable, if she feels like she needs to take action.