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HBO's THE NEVERS to air in April 2021


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This show is a nice surprise for me. I didn't expect much of it, and had even found the first episode frankly disappointing (clunky dialogue, too much exposure, lots of clichés). But it seems to me that each episode is better than the next.

It's kind of funny how much of a Whedon show this is. I'd swear there are even scenes that I've seen in Buffy - about twenty years ago? But that also makes it predictable at times.

 

I knew neither Odium nor Maladie could die for instance, because I remember Whedon doesn't like throwing away good characters.

OTOH, I got tricked by the misdirections (should I say red herrings?) more than once. The show is clever, because there tends to be more than once interpretation or theory you can work with after each episode.
For instance, I initially thought Annie's body had been taken over by Amalia after she shot herself...
I'd also completely missed Maladie disguised as Effie (?) Boyle though, and loved the reveal. Now, that episode 5 was great. I wonder if they can top it off with the finale (I doubt it, but, I'm hopeful now).

I wouldn't want the 6th episode to reveal everything though. We know Amalia/Molly is from the future, but I don't think we need to know everything about her past just yet. Lavinia may or may not be touched, or may or may not have been "contaminated" by the Galanthi.
There may be something about Hague, as Ran said. I suppose it was him who created the weird cyborgs - though it's not clear why imho.
The one thing I really  don't get is what Hugo Swann and his little club's point is. I somehow doubt it's just about gratuitous nudity, so either it's setting something up for the episodes 7-12, or there's more to him than meets the eye. He may have killed his brother for starters, or maybe his brother isn't actually dead... So far he's been rather useless to the plot.

There are quite a few intriguing details though. Weren't Massen's bombs a bit too modern looking for the period? What "war" was he talking about?
In fact, do we know for sure this is even our Earth or our timeline? From the start, people seem too unsurprised by Penance's creations, and I wonder if that's due to poor writing, or if this isn't in fact a clue that the world itself is something special... 

 

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2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

This show is a nice surprise for me. I didn't expect much of it, and had even found the first episode frankly disappointing (clunky dialogue, too much exposure, lots of clichés). But it seems to me that each episode is better than the next.

It's kind of funny how much of a Whedon show this is. I'd swear there are even scenes that I've seen in Buffy - about twenty years ago? But that also makes it predictable at times.

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I knew neither Odium nor Maladie could die for instance, because I remember Whedon doesn't like throwing away good characters.

OTOH, I got tricked by the misdirections (should I say red herrings?) more than once. The show is clever, because there tends to be more than once interpretation or theory you can work with after each episode.
For instance, I initially thought Annie's body had been taken over by Amalia after she shot herself...
I'd also completely missed Maladie disguised as Effie (?) Boyle though, and loved the reveal. Now, that episode 5 was great. I wonder if they can top it off with the finale (I doubt it, but, I'm hopeful now).

I wouldn't want the 6th episode to reveal everything though. We know Amalia/Molly is from the future, but I don't think we need to know everything about her past just yet. Lavinia may or may not be touched, or may or may not have been "contaminated" by the Galanthi.
There may be something about Hague, as Ran said. I suppose it was him who created the weird cyborgs - though it's not clear why imho.
The one thing I really  don't get is what Hugo Swann and his little club's point is. I somehow doubt it's just about gratuitous nudity, so either it's setting something up for the episodes 7-12, or there's more to him than meets the eye. He may have killed his brother for starters, or maybe his brother isn't actually dead... So far he's been rather useless to the plot.

There are quite a few intriguing details though. Weren't Massen's bombs a bit too modern looking for the period? What "war" was he talking about?
In fact, do we know for sure this is even our Earth or our timeline? From the start, people seem too unsurprised by Penance's creations, and I wonder if that's due to poor writing, or if this isn't in fact a clue that the world itself is something special... 

 

Spoiler

Well, it obviously isn't quite the same UK from the real word 1899, for multiple reasons... including the fact that they've mentioned "His Majesty, the King"! King? In 1899?!

When I still thought it was the same Victorian England with the only change being the Touched,  I thought the war was the war against Boers, which was around that time. But seeing it's a different UK, which apparently has a King... who knows.

 

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@Annara Snow

 

So... wouldn't that be the biggest clue of all? That the "timeline" is wrong precisely because Victoria is not queen (prematurely dead, I guess)?
And couldn't Amalia's "mission" then be to either restore Victoria to the throne, or make sure a woman takes it?

The funny thing here would be that there was in fact an attack on the British empire, but that took place some time before the Galanthi's arrival (and "the Event"). Which would mean that, eventually, Massen would become Amalia's ally to save the Empire and the world from whoever took over, and possibly even make the Empire less conservative in the process (by truly starting the industrial and scientific revolutions, not to mention bring in lots of social justice).
Seems to me that would be rather Whedon-esque as a central plot.

Also, there could be an "evil" equivalent to the Touched...

This might explain passing references to the PM and "princess Bettina" who was "sent to Zurich," probably because she was touched. I guess that would be princess Beatrice?
There is after all Annie's question to Amalia:
- Is that the mission you were going on about? Mary Brighton brings in all the Touched with her little lullaby, then we overthrow the monarchy?
- Nothing that grand. Or that small.
It would be funny if the mission had, in fact, something to do with the monarchy.

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1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

@Annara Snow

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So... wouldn't that be the biggest clue of all? That the "timeline" is wrong precisely because Victoria is not queen (prematurely dead, I guess)?
And couldn't Amalia's "mission" then be to either restore Victoria to the throne, or make sure a woman takes it?

.

Spoiler

Oh god, I hope not. :ack: That would be the dumbest plot ever and would really ruin the show for me.

For starters, everyone knows that the monarchs were not real decision-makers at that point, it was the Parliament, Government and Prime Minister.

And secondly, who the heck cares is the monarch is a woman or a man? It doesn't change anything. Victoria was just as conservative as any other English monarch. And it's not like having a woman as a figurehead or even as the person in power automatically makes any difference to the other women in the society. Having Mary Tudor or Elizabeth I or Anne or Victoria as Queen, or Margaret Thatcher as PM, didn't do squat for women, not to mention working classes or POC or LGBT people. Did worse, in Thatcher's case.I would hope in the year 2021 people would not be going with these ideas. "having a black president solves everything for the black people" (yeah, I see how that worked out for USA). In my country, we have an openly lesbian Prime Minster, and she's done squat for LGBT people - and everyone knows she's just a puppet of the President and always sucks up to him and does whatever he wants, but she was made PM for the optics in the Western countries' eyes.

I wouldn't be too surprised if Whedon came up with it, stuck in the 1990s idea of what feminism is, but I would hope the others were smarter than that.

 

Edited by Annara Snow
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Well, The Nevers is clever, but I wouldn't call it brilliant. Many of its elements are in fact very cliché, very much in line of a 1990s idea of what feminism is.
'tis why I wasn't hooked by watching the first episode.

If we have a bunch of important old white men taking decisions in a secret club, then I wouldn't be too surprised if we get a female monarch (a Touched) as a counter.

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1 hour ago, Rippounet said:
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Well, The Nevers is clever, but I wouldn't call it brilliant. Many of its elements are in fact very cliché, very much in line of a 1990s idea of what feminism is.
'tis why I wasn't hooked by watching the first episode.

If we have a bunch of important old white men taking decisions in a secret club, then I wouldn't be too surprised if we get a female monarch (a Touched) as a counter.

Spoiler

BtVS wasn't that dumb either, it's not like there weren't evil women in power - from Maggie Walsh to Glory - and Olivia Williams' character on Dollhouse was very morally grey.. and her character here is doing some very creepy things.

Dollhouse S1 finale (not counting Epilogue 1) did have the cringey "we have a black president" line, but it was 2009, people were excited by the idea, so I can understand it...

Everyone in the writing room being so dumb to actually suggest a plot where Queen Victoria is the savior of women and marginalized communities? Even though her being the monarch is exactly what happened in real life and she sure didn't do any such thing? That seems like a huge stretch. (Though I hear they did some crap like that with George III on Brigerton, so anything is possible.) 

I hope this was just a hint that it's a full AU version of the real world, where anything can happen.

 

 

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Oh, if the plot goes down that road, I don't think we'll see Victoria (she's probably dead already). I'm betting on one of her daughters instead.

It's just a theory though. They could also shoot for something more subtle... For instance, involving the PM (and possibly a female PM?).

But I'd be surprised if the show didn't start involving politics... It already has after all, and there are many hints that its about to do more. You don't start talking about te PM, the king, the princess, the war, the Empire... etc, if these don't actually become plot points in the future. And quite obviously, the show isn't going for realism: the "timeline" has already seen major changes, and it'll probably get worse.

Though of course, in Buffy, we never got beyond a mayor... Or wasn't there a senator at some point?
Anyway, I understand Whedon won't be the showrunner anymore, so who the hell knows, uh?

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The Guardian has a good interview with Olivia Williams. Not too The Nevers specific. I remembered that she had had a cancer diagnosis some years back, but did not realize it was pancreatic cancer. We are lucky to have her still. She mentions Whedon in passing, and then makes it plain she has a lot she could say but fears whatever she says will get twisted up by Twitter and the like (she really dislikes social media).

Also, I see in interviews that Amy Manson has noted that the man we see when she's being taken out to the asylum during the Event is in fact Sarah's husband. Wonder if we'll learn more about her backstory, and if we'll see him again... Did she have children, I wonder?

Spoiler

As to the matter of the king, I am not quite sure what to make of it. Taking it at face value, Victoria has died a little early. I'm wondering if there's any hints to be found in the occasional newspaper clippings we've seen. I recall one in particular concerned a person who had a claim to the throne, but can't remember what episode or what scene it was in. 

ETA: Found it, second episode, Lord Massen at the club reading the paper with the photo of Amalia and Lavinia. I'll transcribe what I can make of the snippet, which doesn't mention either a king or queen  but does discuss some royal kin:

"... husband, Prince Louis, is the heir to the throne of Bavaria. She has ten children, the eldest, the Pretender Prince of Wales, being in his twenty-fourth year, a heavy fellow mentally, and as unlike "Bonnie Prince Charlie" as it is possible for man to be unlike another. The Archduchess is the nearest direct descendant of James II."

I can't quite match up the details to any historical figure. The closest I've found is Princess Alice, one of Victoria's daughters, who was  wife to Louis IV, the Grand Duke of Hesse, and mother to an Ernest Louis who succeeded his father as Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine. But she was not an Archduchess, and did not have ten children, and died in 1878 while the article seems to suggest its subject is still alive. Also, Ernest Louis was born in 1868, making him between 28 and 31 when the article was written, whereas it claims the Pretender Prince is 24. Finally, I don't think Alice would be the closest descendant of James II.

Sometimes these props are just full of made up stuff, but sometimes they  provide clues. If it's the latter, right now this suggests to me that the history of the Nevers universe has been different to our own since at least some years, if not decades, before 1896. OTOH, the first episode tells us the Boer War is happening, so history isn't that changed.

 

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That was so good. Honestly, it was a terrific episode. I'm dreading what the back half will look like under the new showrunner, given that she's basically an unknown with no particularly good work to her credit so far, and I'm feeling resigned to the idea that we won't get a second season.

Spoiler

This episode gave massive deja vu with the Dollhouse episodes Epitaph One and Epitaph Two. With a dash of Terminator. This is a good thing, because those were bloody awesome.

We recognized Claudia Black, sort of, but hadn't seen her in many years -- never watched SG-1 -- so admittedly we had to look at the credits. And then, hell yeah. Aeryn Sun!!! Laura Donnelly’s mimicry was terrific

So, Amalia -- Zephyr -- was indeed a soldier of the future. Not an intergalactic future, it seems, other than the Galanthi showing up to try and help fix a fucked up world until the Free Lifers formed as doomsday xenophobes and wiped most of them out.  As a 'stripe', did that mean she was basically a sergeant... or are stripes genetically engineered super-soldiers? Hard to say. 

The Knitter was starting to say her name, that began with an H. Bit on the nose, but could her name be Harriet? A family name? In other words, a descendent of Harriet from the main action of the story.

So, Hague was the one that Amalia threw Maladie to. What to make of him? That vision had someone telling Amalia that she wasn't the only one who hitched a ride. My one thought.... is he that Free Lifer Major Greenbone? Admittedly. Greenbone had a southern accent, but like Zephyr/Amalia he might have felt it was useful to change it. If he was leading the patrol hunting the research station signal, could be that he was himself a scientist of some sort...

Why are names sacred and hidden by the PDC? Just a cultural development, or something to do with the conflict on Earth and the Galanthi?

That was definitely Myrtle speaking -- presumably as the voice of the Galanthi -- at the end of the vision, telling Amalia that she'd seen too far ahead and needed to forget? Hmm!

The Chapter Two section with Molly was so very good as well.

Oh, right, why in the world did people get powers instead of becoming more empathic or brilliant? Something to do with time travel? Something to do with the fact that Zephyr had tried to poison herself? Something to do with the additional passenger?

Man, just... so good. 

 

Edited by Ran
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2 hours ago, Ran said:

 

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Oh, right, why in the world did people get powers instead of becoming more empathic or brilliant? Something to do with time travel? Something to do with the fact that Zephyr had tried to poison herself? Something to do with the additional passenger?

 

Spoiler

Something to do with the Galanthi having been infected with human blood which changed the spores.

 

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17 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:
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Something to do with the Galanthi having been infected with human blood which changed the spores.

 

Oooh, good call. I bet that’s right.

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A further thought about the mid-season finale:

Spoiler

So, the normal idea behind what the Galanthi did is use spores to help make people either more empathic or more brilliant, to make it easier for them to understand their technology and language. For whatever reason, possibly due to the blood contamination or something else, this didn't quite happen: a multitude of powers developed in the Touched. But there's still the idea that there ought to be someone who is empathic, who can lead people to what the Galanthi intends.

I've seen fan speculation that we're supposed to believe it's Penance, and others that are sure it's Maladie. But I think the answer was staring us in the face in this episode: Myrtle, see in the vision as the voice of the Galanthi at some point. But... I think it may be that Maladie and perhaps even Penance each have a part of the "empath/brilliance" thing that will be needed to let Myrtle move from understanding all languages to being able to communicate. Basically making them a sort of trinity, which is the kind of thing Whedon might go in for. (It also almost certainly means that the ultimate end game is either death or separation from their ability to be able to make Myrtle what she has to be.)

 

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Spoiler

Gotta appreciate that this show knows that it's audience is gonna scrutinise and discuss events in the story and figure out some things beforehand, if this had come out a few years ago, it would've treated Amalia being from the future as some big plot twist.

Those Victorian era items that Zephyr and Knitter found, where those stored and preserved by Amalia and the gang for in relation to their mission? Is the show going to use a causal loop?

How powerful are the Galanthi? Did they specifically plan it so that Sarah would be the only one to remember? And if so, why? Was Effie doing an investigation into what Hague and Lavinia were doing and that's how Maladie first got into contact with her (I don't remember which mine she was first discovered in)?

I assume that the real Amalia was actually successful at committing suicide and that Zephyr has completed control over the body and partial access to Amalia's memories. If I'm correct, how did the Galanthi know to send Zephyr's soul to Amalia? All of this is just making me think that the show is going to do something similar to what happened in Arrival, which is very easy to get wrong if you're not thorough in your logic.

5 hours ago, Ran said:

The Knitter was starting to say her name, that began with an H. Bit on the nose, but could her name be Harriet? A family name? In other words, a descendent of Harriet from the main action of the story.

So, Hague was the one that Amalia threw Maladie to. What to make of him? That vision had someone telling Amalia that she wasn't the only one who hitched a ride. My one thought.... is he that Free Lifer Major Greenbone? Admittedly. Greenbone had a southern accent, but like Zephyr/Amalia he might have felt it was useful to change it. If he was leading the patrol hunting the research station signal, could be that he was himself a scientist of some sort...

That was definitely Myrtle speaking -- presumably as the voice of the Galanthi -- at the end of the vision, telling Amalia that she'd seen too far ahead and needed to forget? Hmm

It's Hague who starts of by asking "Did you think..." and then we here a woman's voice finishing off the sentence. Personally, I think that this is a red herring and these are two different conversations that have been cut together to give off that very impression. But if someone did hitch a ride, I would assume it the sound would end up in Lavinia rather than Hague. Hague's motivation appears to be scientific (he's trying to find the where the touched's power resides in their bodies) while Lavinia wants to cure the touched and destroy the Galanthi which also happens to be exactly what the FreeLifers want.

Agreed on both Knitter and Myrtle. Also on Myrtle, from what time period is the dress she's wearing from? Because that certainly didn't look Victorian to me.

So many questions this episode left us on, I hope that the fan theories don't turn out to be significantly better than the answers the show will give us.

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I am wondering why

Spoiler

the time travel? Based on the knowledge humans had of the Galanthi, it appears they came to Earth via wormholes that were stable only for a short amount of time. (which is cool, since science so far doesn't think wormholes can truly exist) Then that one Galanthi leaves through a stable wormhole. 

Was the time travel aspect an accident? My guess is no, based on the fact that the Galanthi purposefully takes Zephyr's consciousness with it.

So then I think the Galanthi decided that the only way to save Earth is to do it at an earlier stage, not too far back where the Touched would be burned at the stake for their abilities, not too far forward where Earth's collapse has already begun.

 

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9 hours ago, Ran said:

That was so good. Honestly, it was a terrific episode. I'm dreading what the back half will look like under the new showrunner, given that she's basically an unknown with no particularly good work to her credit so far, and I'm feeling resigned to the idea that we won't get a second season.

  Hide contents

This episode gave massive deja vu with the Dollhouse episodes Epitaph One and Epitaph Two. With a dash of Terminator. This is a good thing, because those were bloody awesome.

We recognized Claudia Black, sort of, but hadn't seen her in many years -- never watched SG-1 -- so admittedly we had to look at the credits. And then, hell yeah. Aeryn Sun!!! Laura Donnelly’s mimicry was terrific

So, Amalia -- Zephyr -- was indeed a soldier of the future. Not an intergalactic future, it seems, other than the Galanthi showing up to try and help fix a fucked up world until the Free Lifers formed as doomsday xenophobes and wiped most of them out.  As a 'stripe', did that mean she was basically a sergeant... or are stripes genetically engineered super-soldiers? Hard to say. 

The Knitter was starting to say her name, that began with an H. Bit on the nose, but could her name be Harriet? A family name? In other words, a descendent of Harriet from the main action of the story.

So, Hague was the one that Amalia threw Maladie to. What to make of him? That vision had someone telling Amalia that she wasn't the only one who hitched a ride. My one thought.... is he that Free Lifer Major Greenbone? Admittedly. Greenbone had a southern accent, but like Zephyr/Amalia he might have felt it was useful to change it. If he was leading the patrol hunting the research station signal, could be that he was himself a scientist of some sort...

Why are names sacred and hidden by the PDC? Just a cultural development, or something to do with the conflict on Earth and the Galanthi?

That was definitely Myrtle speaking -- presumably as the voice of the Galanthi -- at the end of the vision, telling Amalia that she'd seen too far ahead and needed to forget? Hmm!

The Chapter Two section with Molly was so very good as well.

Oh, right, why in the world did people get powers instead of becoming more empathic or brilliant? Something to do with time travel? Something to do with the fact that Zephyr had tried to poison herself? Something to do with the additional passenger?

Man, just... so good. 

 

Why do you think the show won't be renewed? Are the ratings bad? I thought they were OK? But I haven't actually looked them up too much.

Spoiler

I was distracted by Knitter's resemblance to Harriet, so it would make perfect sense that she was related to her.

 

 

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@Cashless Society

Spoiler
Quote

Those Victorian era items that Zephyr and Knitter found, where those stored and preserved by Amalia and the gang for in relation to their mission? Is the show going to use a causal loop?

I've seen this theory, but I don't believe so. I believe that the Galanthi and the research team were working on a project of creating a temporal portal into the past, and that they were training themselves -- by collecting period items to get used to, and perhaps sims -- to be able to go into the past with the Galanthi to try and change their present. It seems like the Galanthi felt that their species had arrived too late in time, too far into Earth's spiral, and that this was why they were failing. 

I feel like if it were in fact a temporal loop, we'd have seen some evidence of it in the form of Stripe recognizing what was going on... or, you know, not drinking two bottles marked as poison to kill herself out of despair. 

Quote

Did they specifically plan it so that Sarah would be the only one to remember? And if so, why?

I'm guessing no, that it was the happenstance of Sarah being already mad.

Quote

All of this is just making me think that the show is going to do something similar to what happened in Arrival, which is very easy to get wrong if you're not thorough in your logic.

Admittedly, Arrival has run through my mind. I kind of hope not, because this would make it a temporal loop kind of situation and I'm generally not a fan of them. But admittedly, it can't be entirely dismissed.

Quote

It's Hague who starts of by asking "Did you think..." and then we here a woman's voice finishing off the sentence. 

Good catch. Frankly, the woman sounds like she's speaking without a British accent, so.. Zephyr? Or another American/Canadian from the future?

 

Quote

Hague's motivation appears to be scientific (he's trying to find the where the touched's power resides in their bodies) while Lavinia wants to cure the touched and destroy the Galanthi which also happens to be exactly what the FreeLifers want.

I'm not quite sure it's this simple. Hague wants to understand the power, yes, but the thing that gets me is the fact that he's creating cyborgs and seems to have some distinctly not-of-the-era technology on hand (see my earlier posts on his "Ain't We Got Fun" quip and the 50s-era surgical lamp and dental drill). It's true, I suppose, that he could be some other time traveler or something, and not a True Lifer... 

As  to Lavinia, surely she'd want to destroy the Galanthi immediately. Why let Hague talk her out of it? 

 

Quote

. Also on Myrtle, from what time period is the dress she's wearing from? Because that certainly didn't look Victorian to me.

Linda thinks it could possibly be something out the opera costuming or some sort of "fancy dress" for the period. It doesn't read futuristic, anyways, not with those sleeves and skirt.

@Corvinus85

Yeah, agreed with your speculation.

 

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