HBO's THE NEVERS to air in April 2021

[Annara Snow]

Interview with Laura Donnelly:

https://deadline.com/2021/05/the-nevers-laura-donnelly-interview-joss-whedon-finale-spoilers-1234757943/

They haven't even started shooting the second half of season 1, which makes me think it may not air in 2021.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Annara Snow

[Ran]

42 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Interview with Laura Donnelly:

https://deadline.com/2021/05/the-nevers-laura-donnelly-interview-joss-whedon-finale-spoilers-1234757943/

They haven't even started shooting the second half of season 1, which makes me think it may not air in 2021.

Yeah, it's 100% for 2022. 

Another interview with Donnelly about the final episode and related matters.

 

[Ran]

Linda has a theory:

Spoiler

Amalia's visions include an image, very brief, of a man drowning. She believes that this represents Hugo Swan, and that in fact he may have been involved in the same accident that led to his brother's death. In that case... she suspects that Byner, the guy who spends most of his time in "fucksims", was one of the passengers that the Galanthi picked up and deposited into a dead-or-dying body. 

Now, my only issue here is that Swan is incredibly posh and seems to remember details about his schoolboy friendship with Augie, but maybe it's a matter of how near death someone was -- he wasn't that near death, but it was enough to put Byner in there, and he's more of an influence in the background of Swan's head.

The silver lining to this theory is that it would explain why Hugo is such a prominent character, if he's connected to one of the time travelers from the future.

 

 

[Corvinus85]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Linda has a theory:

  Hide contents

Amalia's visions include an image, very brief, of a man drowning. She believes that this represents Hugo Swan, and that in fact he may have been involved in the same accident that led to his brother's death. In that case... she suspects that Byner, the guy who spends most of his time in "fucksims", was one of the passengers that the Galanthi picked up and deposited into a dead-or-dying body. 

Now, my only issue here is that Swan is incredibly posh and seems to remember details about his schoolboy friendship with Augie, but maybe it's a matter of how near death someone was -- he wasn't that near death, but it was enough to put Byner in there, and he's more of an influence in the background of Swan's head.

The silver lining to this theory is that it would explain why Hugo is such a prominent character, if he's connected to one of the time travelers from the future.

 

 

And possibly

Spoiler

the dead scientist. We don't if the Galanthi is able to store someone's consciousness for a longer period.

I also just had a realization

Spoiler

Amalia tells Penance the truth about she is some time ago, maybe in the early days of the Orphanage. This explains why Penance only sighed in exasperation and didn't question where Amalia came up with the names for her inventions.

And

Spoiler

Surely Mary was one of the empaths, but with her ability transcribing through song

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Corvinus85

[Werthead]

Watched the first two episodes.

Overall, strong stuff. Excellent costuming and soundtrack. Okay-ish effects, but they feel surprisingly off for what's no doubt a big-budget HBO show. The effects for Primrose being huge weren't really convincing and the establishing shots of London are too "digital clean". I remember Doctor Who did a big Victorian episode (the one with David Morrissey and the 300-foot-tall Cybertitan smashing up London) and they built a 3D model of the entirety of central London and tried to dirty the image down so it worked better, and it more or less did, and that must have been on a tiny fraction of the budget available here. The fireball effects are also a bit too weightless and Netflix for my taste; you can tell there's absolutely no real fire anywhere near the image.

The actors are all outstanding, the general flow of the plot is good, though diminishing returns if you've read a lot of X-Men comics. A big weakness is that the show is a bit too obviously Whedon falling back on stock plot coupons: Adair is Kaylee Mk. II, Maladie is Drusilla II, Augustus is Simon II and Amalia is Buffy by way of Faith with a hint of Zoe. And the bait-and-switch of what the show is about, no wait, here's what it's really about (I was spoiled on the ending, which to be fair makes watching the early episodes probably a very different experience) is pure Dollhouse.

For the average viewer not versed in Whedonisms, that's probably far less of an issue, of course. But it's one of the reasons I'm excited to see where a new showrunner will take the story. Hopefully it will make the show far less predictable than if Whedon had stayed on and continued to remix his greatest hits of the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Anyway, reasonably decent and I'll watch more. It does feel like the show got a lot of unwarranted negative press based on things other than its own, inherent quality.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Werthead

[Ran]

Rewatched the first part of the mid-season finale, and flipped around to some other scenes, which lead to another theory:

Spoiler

Linda now thinks that Massen's daughter has been turned into a Galanthi or something of the like. Perhaps as a result of things going wrong, and maybe that's why the crystal isn't able to communicate easily with Amalia. I did recall some speculation from fans after the 4th episode that the message of "going below" is about Massen's daughter, not about the crystal.

Moreover, now that we've heard a Galanthi... the sound we hear out of that locked room in episode 3 is very similar.

Did the Galanthi transport its body away from its crystal shell when it knew it was crashing, finding a host to transform into?

 

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

 

The actors are all outstanding, the general flow of the plot is good, though diminishing returns if you've read a lot of X-Men comics. A big weakness is that the show is a bit too obviously Whedon falling back on stock plot coupons: Adair is Kaylee Mk. II, Maladie is Drusilla II, Augustus is Simon II and Amalia is Buffy by way of Faith with a hint of Zoe.

So, she's... three very different characters at the same time? How does that work, exactly?

Or rather - she is a whole different character of her own you're just stretching to compare to various female characters from Whedon shows just because you know it's a Whedon show?

You could have at least compared Penance to Jemma Simmons. She was a biochemist, but at least she was a scientist. The only similarly between Kaylee and Penance is... they're kind of cutesy?  And the only similarity between Maladie and Drusilla is that they are mentally ill, and that they kill people. Why weren't people comparing Alice from Batwoman to Drusilla? She's also mentally ill and a serial killer. But it wasn't a Whedon show. That's the only reason why.

[john]

Spoiler

So Molly is short for Amalia. Well, that clears up one odd thing I never realised. I can’t decide if I’m dense or if they were obscuring that to keep Amalia a mystery.

They do seem to have played a bit fast and loose with the mystery, turns out that Zephyr is just Zephyr and there’s no confusion or colliding personalities/memories which I was sure they were hinting at.

I was also wondering if Stripe were supposed to be super soldiers, with all the fuss made about Amalia being little (although with first class tits apparently). Didn’t seem necessary to be mentioned. So it’s clear why she can fight and has a power, not really clear how she jumped into that stairwell in the first episode, apparently that’s just acrobatic skill rather than instant premonition.

The Sarah betrayal was a clear betrayal, she was thrown to the wolves. I’m not sure what Hume’s reaction was supposed to be. He thought they both saw it but then he bought that Molly had been lying? But if he believes Sarah saw something then surely it’s obvious Molly is lying about lying.

The last sequence - why was the lift glowing when she touched it? Who was the girl she saw as she was ascending? Was that the Italian girl that levitates things? And can’t they just find out who owns that house if they want to find their enemy?

 

[Werthead]

 

Quote

The only similarly between Kaylee and Penance is... they're kind of cutesy? 

They're also both genius engineers who can build amazing things with limited-to-nonexistent resources and constantly underrated because of their age/gender and have an instant mutual attracting to the shy/awkward man of a higher social class they meet in Episode 1/2 which looks like it can't go anywhere because one or both constantly put their foot in their mouth or because of social awkwardness but we kind of know they're going to hook up anyway even if it takes all season and a spinoff.

Quote

And the only similarity between Maladie and Drusilla is that they are mentally ill, and that they kill people. Why weren't people comparing Alice from Batwoman to Drusilla? 

They're both mentally ill, they kill people, they sometimes speak in sing-song rhymes using strange metaphors, and have moments where they "snap" into lucid normality, usually to deliver a sane line unexpectedly for comic purposes. Maybe you can stretch that to both having romantic partners who are ruthless and skilled killers who may or may not become allies of the main characters later on (still yet to watch Episodes 3-6).

[unJon]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Rewatched the first part of the mid-season finale, and flipped around to some other scenes, which lead to another theory:

  Hide contents

Linda now thinks that Massen's daughter has been turned into a Galanthi or something of the like. Perhaps as a result of things going wrong, and maybe that's why the crystal isn't able to communicate easily with Amalia. I did recall some speculation from fans after the 4th episode that the message of "going below" is about Massen's daughter, not about the crystal.

Moreover, now that we've heard a Galanthi... the sound we hear out of that locked room in episode 3 is very similar.

Did the Galanthi transport its body away from its crystal shell when it knew it was crashing, finding a host to transform into?

 

I like this theory very much. It explains Massen’s attitude and leaves room for: 

 

Spoiler

Livinia to be the Free Lifer.

 

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

 

They're also both genius engineers who can build amazing things with limited-to-nonexistent resources and constantly underrated because of their age/gender and have an instant mutual attracting to the shy/awkward man of a higher social class they meet in Episode 1/2 which looks like it can't go anywhere because one or both constantly put their foot in their mouth or because of social awkwardness but we kind of know they're going to hook up anyway even if it takes all season and a spinoff.

 

And this is such an incredibly unique situation, which never occurs it any other fictional story set in the past - or, indeed, the present. So much that it has to be specifically a Whedon thing and criticized for not being original enough... as opposed to a woman in Victorian England getting enough credit...

Quote

They're both mentally ill, they kill people, they sometimes speak in sing-song rhymes using strange metaphors, and have moments where they "snap" into lucid normality, usually to deliver a sane line unexpectedly for comic purposes. Maybe you can stretch that to both having romantic partners who are ruthless and skilled killers who may or may not become allies of the main characters later on (still yet to watch Episodes 3-6).

I'm pretty sure you could just as well draw a parallel with Alice from Batwoman - from what I saw of that show - or for that matter, the Mad Hatter. But OK.

As pointed out a few pages back, Drusilla is always in a dreamlike state; Drusilla is always glamorous, ven when she's weak and ill; Drusilla has a strong attachment to some man or another and follows their lead and/or makes them do things for her with her stereotypically feminine childlike persona, but is never a leader, and even when she's not with a man, she follows Darla's lead. Maladie, on the other hand, has a manic energy, typically looks like sh1t - yellow teeth and everything, and is definitely a leader of her gang. Drusilla also has powers of hypnotism and premonition - Maladie has neither. In fact, other people in the show have those two superpowers, instead. And finally, Maladie has shown that she's in fact capable of being a lot more rational and scheming that we could've predicted and that Drusilla has ever shown herself to be.

And I must have missed Maladie having any sort of romantic partner. Who is it? I haven't see one anywhere.

It's kind of bizarre that you're arguing unoriginality based on superficial similarities to other Whedon characters, while ignoring similar superficial similarities to a whole bunch of other fictional characters.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, john said:

  Hide contents

The last sequence - why was the lift glowing when she touched it? Who was the girl she saw as she was ascending? Was that the Italian girl that levitates things? And can’t they just find out who owns that house if they want to find their enemy?

 

Spoiler

Yes, the Italian girl levitated the lift. It was shown in a previous episode that she was regaining her powers, so maybe the lobotomy she got wasn't permanent, or maybe the doctor didn't consider a factor. (like the lobotomized Touched working in the presence of that chrysalis) 

 

[Zorral]

Did. Not. Like. This. Mess.  Will not be back after this, whenever it shows up, 2 years, whatever, from now, after only FIVE freakin' episodes.

Probably this very small number of eps is due to Covid-19.  Even so, this is a train wreck. The actors, everyone who works on this show, beyond the writers and and directors, were owed a whole lot more than this.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Zorral

[sifth]

Saw the first 2 episodes and I think I'm done. I know she's a minor character, but Primrose takes me right out of the episode, whenever she shows up; the effects for her just are not great.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Saw the first 2 episodes and I think I'm done. I know she's a minor character, but Primrose takes me right out of the episode, whenever she shows up; the effects for her just are not great.

For what it's worth, she is so far an extremely minor character.

[john]

11 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes, the Italian girl levitated the lift. It was shown in a previous episode that she was regaining her powers, so maybe the lobotomy she got wasn't permanent, or maybe the doctor didn't consider a factor. (like the lobotomized Touched working in the presence of that chrysalis) 

 

Yeah, that makes sense, I didn’t recognise her or the effect of her power. It seems a little odd of an application, unless she just levitated it slightly until the mechanism kicked in or something.

10 hours ago, Zorral said:

Did. Not. Like. This. Mess.  Will not be back after this, whenever it shows up, 2 years, whatever, from now, after only FIVE freakin' episodes.

Probably this very small number of eps is due to Covid-19.  Even so, this is a train wreck. The actors, everyone who works on this show, beyond the writers and and directors, were owed a whole lot more than this.

 

This seems quite an intense reaction. I’m not entirely happy with the direction of the story but that’s more personal preference than anything, it’s consistent and coherent even with the different elements mixed together.

The small number of episodes is a shame, especially when it doesn’t seem outrageously bigger in scope than your average tv show.

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Saw the first 2 episodes and I think I'm done. I know she's a minor character, but Primrose takes me right out of the episode, whenever she shows up; the effects for her just are not great.

She’s barely in it after the first two so if that’s your only objection I’d say stick with it.

[Annara Snow]

11 hours ago, Zorral said:

Did. Not. Like. This. Mess.  Will not be back after this, whenever it shows up, 2 years, whatever, from now, after only FIVE freakin' episodes.

Probably this very small number of eps is due to Covid-19.  Even so, this is a train wreck. The actors, everyone who works on this show, beyond the writers and and directors, were owed a whole lot more than this.

 

It's SIX episodes.

No comment about your rant, except that I don't get what you're ranting about.

[Werthead]

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

And I must have missed Maladie having any sort of romantic partner. Who is it? I haven't see one anywhere.

She's being very affectionate with Bonfire Annie in the second episode, though it turns out that's just Maladie's thing.

Episode 3: An apparently major and highly sympathetic female character is shockingly shot dead to engender an emotional response from the audience. Episode 4: Bonfire Annie joins the A-team and becomes a morally suspect but useful ally to the gang.

*jaw opens in dull surprise* Oh no who saw these things coming what a twist.

Quote

As pointed out a few pages back, Drusilla is always in a dreamlike state; Drusilla is always glamorous, ven when she's weak and ill; Drusilla has a strong attachment to some man or another and follows their lead and/or makes them do things for her with her stereotypically feminine childlike persona, but is never a leader, and even when she's not with a man, she follows Darla's lead. 

That's not how Drusilla is after she regains her strength in Season 2 of Buffy nor is it how she is after arriving in LA to tear up the place in Season 2 of Angel. In both cases she becomes much stronger, more lucid and more willing to take on a leadership role (it's Drusilla who returns Darla to being a vampire, for example).

Quote

It's kind of bizarre that you're arguing unoriginality based on superficial similarities to other Whedon characters, while ignoring similar superficial similarities to a whole bunch of other fictional characters.

That was the point I was making: Whedon is reusing a lot of characters and tropes he's used before, down to a very, very specific character level. If you're familiar with Whedon's work, this makes the whole exercise somewhat more predictable than if you are not. Viewers coming into this who are not massive Buffy or Firefly fans will find much less here that is extremely familiar.

[Mexal]

1 hour ago, john said:

Yeah, that makes sense, I didn’t recognise her or the effect of her power. It seems a little odd of an application, unless she just levitated it slightly until the mechanism kicked in or something.

She touched the elevator and applied her power. That's what she did in the opening of Episode 2? Just needs to touch it and then it goes up!

Edited May 18, 2021 by Mexal

[john]

23 minutes ago, Mexal said:

She touched the elevator and applied her power. That's what she did in the opening of Episode 2? Just needs to touch it and then it goes up!

I worded that wrong I think, I actually meant I didn’t remember things glow when she levitates them and I also thought she was lifting them like telekinesis. But you’re right, I guess she just makes things floaty and if a lift is lighter than air it would just rise in its shaft.