Sansa vs. Tyrion

[Canon Claude]

One thing I love about the Tyrion-Sansa marriage is how we get both their sides and inner thoughts on what’s happening. 
 

I want to try and focus things a little bit, though. There’s one moment which really stuck with me, and that’s the wedding itself. At one point, Tyrion needs to put the Lannister cloak on his bride, and he silently asks Sansa to kneel. Sansa, meanwhile, has only just been told that she’s going to marry Tyrion rather than Willas. In the middle of an emotional gut punch, she refuses to help Tyrion avoid humiliation in front of his family, and rationalizes it by silently asking why she should spare his feelings when nobody cares about hers. Tyrion, meanwhile, is humiliated again, at his own wedding, to a child bride who despises him. He later resents Sansa for her stubborn and proud Stark knees remaining unbent. 
 

I’ve always wondered who I feel more sorry for in that scene, and the whole subplot overall. Both of them are victims in the situation, neither can get any comfort from the other, and both are wrapped up in bitter self-pity. But is there anyone here who can manage to feel more sorry for one rather than the other?

[Wouter]

I tend to feel more sorry for Sansa, because for het it was entirely unvoluntary and she was taken unaware, as well. Tyrion was pressured by Tywin, but a part of him was looking at the (potential) upsides for him, like getting lands. He could have chosen to say no (admittedly not easy, saying no to Tywin, but he did give him a potential out with Lancel as an alternative option) or he at least have warned Sansa beforehand. At the very moment of the wedding, Tyrion acted as a Lannister and thus as an enemy of Sansa.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

42 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I tend to feel more sorry for Sansa, because for het it was entirely unvoluntary and she was taken unaware, as well. Tyrion was pressured by Tywin, but a part of him was looking at the (potential) upsides for him, like getting lands. He could have chosen to say no (admittedly not easy, saying no to Tywin, but he did give him a potential out with Lancel as an alternative option) or he at least have warned Sansa beforehand. At the very moment of the wedding, Tyrion acted as a Lannister and thus as an enemy of Sansa.

This. 

Sansa is still basically a kid when she's married to a grown man. I feel more sorry for her.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

I tend to feel more sorry for Sansa, because for het it was entirely unvoluntary and she was taken unaware, as well. Tyrion was pressured by Tywin, but a part of him was looking at the (potential) upsides for him, like getting lands. He could have chosen to say no (admittedly not easy, saying no to Tywin, but he did give him a potential out with Lancel as an alternative option) or he at least have warned Sansa beforehand. At the very moment of the wedding, Tyrion acted as a Lannister and thus as an enemy of Sansa.

Why did Tyrion choose to accept the match?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

Sansa had no reason to kneel for Tyrion. Her kneeling would mean that she was going along with the charade the Lannisters organized to take the North from the Greyjoys, her refusal to kneel is a sign that she was forced to marry him. He was the adult one and he never backed up she was a 13 years old who had no saying for her own wedding. I feel sorry for her not for him.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

One thing I love about the Tyrion-Sansa marriage is how we get both their sides and inner thoughts on what’s happening. 
 

I want to try and focus things a little bit, though. There’s one moment which really stuck with me, and that’s the wedding itself. At one point, Tyrion needs to put the Lannister cloak on his bride, and he silently asks Sansa to kneel. Sansa, meanwhile, has only just been told that she’s going to marry Tyrion rather than Willas. In the middle of an emotional gut punch, she refuses to help Tyrion avoid humiliation in front of his family, and rationalizes it by silently asking why she should spare his feelings when nobody cares about hers. Tyrion, meanwhile, is humiliated again, at his own wedding, to a child bride who despises him. He later resents Sansa for her stubborn and proud Stark knees remaining unbent. 
 

I’ve always wondered who I feel more sorry for in that scene, and the whole subplot overall. Both of them are victims in the situation, neither can get any comfort from the other, and both are wrapped up in bitter self-pity. But is there anyone here who can manage to feel more sorry for one rather than the other?

Yes, but didn't it amp up your hatred for Joffrey even more? I think that was the intent, partially at least.

[Canon Claude]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, but didn't it amp up your hatred for Joffrey even more? I think that was the intent, partially at least.

Joffrey wasn’t what I wanted to talk about, so I didn’t bring him up. But yes, I hated him more for that scene, but also Cersei. 

[James Steller]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, but didn't it amp up your hatred for Joffrey even more? I think that was the intent, partially at least.

Personally, I hate Tywin the most out of that whole debacle. He's the one who set it up, he's the one casually playing around with people's lives to further his own personal agenda. Joffrey is a spoiled child, Tywin is a calculating adult with zero empathy for other people.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Littlefinger and Dontos sold her out. It was much more traumatic for Sansa. Tyrion is constantly insulted for his disability (which sucks) but I don't think Sansa ever knocks him for his stature. 

[Canon Claude]

15 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Littlefinger and Dontos sold her out. It was much more traumatic for Sansa. Tyrion is constantly insulted for his disability (which sucks) but I don't think Sansa ever knocks him for his stature. 

I mean, to be fair, she’s clearly disgusted with his appearance, so she doesn’t need to mock his height to make him feel rejected and reviled.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

I mean, to be fair, she’s clearly disgusted with his appearance, so she doesn’t need to mock his height to make him feel rejected and reviled.

She's not piling on the ableism though. He knows he's ugly. He's missing a nose. Few women would find that attractive so I can't blame her for that. 

[SeanF]

On 2/2/2021 at 8:57 PM, Canon Claude said:

One thing I love about the Tyrion-Sansa marriage is how we get both their sides and inner thoughts on what’s happening. 
 

I want to try and focus things a little bit, though. There’s one moment which really stuck with me, and that’s the wedding itself. At one point, Tyrion needs to put the Lannister cloak on his bride, and he silently asks Sansa to kneel. Sansa, meanwhile, has only just been told that she’s going to marry Tyrion rather than Willas. In the middle of an emotional gut punch, she refuses to help Tyrion avoid humiliation in front of his family, and rationalizes it by silently asking why she should spare his feelings when nobody cares about hers. Tyrion, meanwhile, is humiliated again, at his own wedding, to a child bride who despises him. He later resents Sansa for her stubborn and proud Stark knees remaining unbent. 
 

I’ve always wondered who I feel more sorry for in that scene, and the whole subplot overall. Both of them are victims in the situation, neither can get any comfort from the other, and both are wrapped up in bitter self-pity. But is there anyone here who can manage to feel more sorry for one rather than the other?

It’s a shout out to a similar scene in I Claudius, where Claudius’ charming family burst out laughing as his bride towers over him.

Tyrion’s family (other than Jaime) are pretty awful towards him, but Sansa has it much worse.  Tyrion is minister of finance, whereas she’s a prisoner whose life hangs by a thread.

[Mad King Bolton]

Is this for the most pitiful character awards?  Neither wanted it, we should feel bad for both of them.  Just another reason to gain sympathy for both and loathing for the ones in power and their manipulation of the little people.  I was just noticing Gendry's growing animosity towards Arya on their adventures together and how Arya truly has it rough, but she's a "lady" and every time Gendry sees someone related to Arya's high born family having done something horrible, you can feel the distance between them grow since she seems more likely to go back to a powerful family in the end and he'll still be with the poor serving them.  In the end though, it doesn't matter who has it more rough, they both have it rough relative to who they are.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

I get all the people feeling sorry for Sansa, and I feel too, but man this whole thing is so nasty to Tyrion.

Tyrion, above all else desires to be loved and accepted. And in Sansa he basically gets a massive divine fuck you saying "hey cunt, look at all the things you'll never have". He gets a kind, innocent woman, to whom he is perfectly courteous and he does and tries his best, and it's still not nearly enough. It's basically Tyrion being told that he will never be enough. And that's really a bummer.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, James Steller said:

Personally, I hate Tywin the most out of that whole debacle. He's the one who set it up, he's the one casually playing around with people's lives to further his own personal agenda. Joffrey is a spoiled child, Tywin is a calculating adult with zero empathy for other people.

Ah, but was it Tywin who ultimately orchestrated this wedding, or Littlefinger?

[James Steller]

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Ah, but was it Tywin who ultimately orchestrated this wedding, or Littlefinger?

I hate both those people, so it doesn't matter too much, frankly.

[Nathan Stark]

18 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I get all the people feeling sorry for Sansa, and I feel too, but man this whole thing is so nasty to Tyrion.

Tyrion, above all else desires to be loved and accepted. And in Sansa he basically gets a massive divine fuck you saying "hey cunt, look at all the things you'll never have". He gets a kind, innocent woman, to whom he is perfectly courteous and he does and tries his best, and it's still not nearly enough. It's basically Tyrion being told that he will never be enough. And that's really a bummer.

By this point in the books, Tyrion has already done some pretty bad things, most notably having Simon Silvertongue converted into a Flea Bottom delicacy. Tyrion being abused because of his physical deformity makes him sympathetic, but it doesn't absolve him of the blood on his hands. Sansa hasn't done murder yet, so in this scene, she is the one I feel the most sorry for.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

14 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Tyrion has already done some pretty bad things, most notably having Simon Silvertongue converted into a Flea Bottom delicacy.

Mate, the guy was blackmailing Tyrion and endangering Shae's life from what we know of Tywin. What did you want him to do?

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mate, the guy was blackmailing Tyrion and endangering Shae's life from what we know of Tywin. What did you want him to do?

“Imp Brand Stew.  It Will Make You Want to Sing.”  The same company will sell you Frey Bentos Pies.

[Wouter]

On 2/3/2021 at 12:58 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Why did Tyrion choose to accept the match?

Multiple reasons, probably. Going along with Tywin (road of least resistance, at least initially). Getting a shot at Winterfell and the lands that go with it. Getting a wife who is a match, as far as social standing goes (son of Tywin * daughter of Eddard).

I have no issue with Sansa not kneeling. It's the fault of Tywin and Cersei, who allowed Sansa a little rebellion that hurts their family by allowing a captive to humiliate their son/brother in an act of defiance. Tyrion going along with the stealth marriage (and thus not telling Sansa) was not a friendly act, either.