Sansa vs. Tyrion

[Nathan Stark]

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mate, the guy was blackmailing Tyrion and endangering Shae's life from what we know of Tywin. What did you want him to do?

I don't really blame Tyrion for wanting to keep himself and Shae safe, just pointing out that he has blood on his hands. And it is on him for putting Shae in a position where her life is in danger in the first place.

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

Multiple reasons, probably. Going along with Tywin (road of least resistance, at least initially). Getting a shot at Winterfell and the lands that go with it. Getting a wife who is a match, as far as social standing goes (son of Tywin * daughter of Eddard).

I have no issue with Sansa not kneeling. It's the fault of Tywin and Cersei, who allowed Sansa a little rebellion that hurts their family by allowing a captive to humiliate their son/brother in an act of defiance. Tyrion going along with the stealth marriage (and thus not telling Sansa) was not a friendly act, either.

 

I dunno, having a lord who’s crippled and might pass it on would likely rub them the wrong way. Remember Torrhen and Eddard Karstark saying Bran should commit suicide because he’s paralyzed? Paralysis isn’t genetic but dwarfism might be.

[Elegant Woes]

I think when we talk about the not kneeling part we do not take the situation in consideration. This is what happened before the changing of the cloaks began:

Quote

The ceremony passed as in a dream. Sansa did all that was required of her. There were prayers and vows and singing, and tall candles burning, a hundred dancing lights that the tears in her eyes transformed into a thousand. Thankfully no one seemed to notice that she was crying as she stood there, wrapped in her father’s colors; or if they did, they pretended not to. In what seemed no time at all, they came to the changing of the cloaks. 

Everyone at the wedding chose to ignore the fact that Sansa was pitifully crying - including Tyrion. He alongside everyone else never took her feelings into consideration. This is why she thinks this a couple lines later:

Quote

She felt another tug at her skirt, more insistent. I won’t. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine? (A Storm of Swords - Sansa III).

Sansa makes a valid point here. Why on earth should she care about Tyrion's feelings when he cannot extent the same courtesy to her. He didn't care about how she stood there crying therefore she's not obligated to care about his humiliation. It's all about reciprocity. Giving back what was given to you. Tyrion chose to be insensitive to her so Sansa was insensitive back. If anyone thinks that Sansa didn't have to fight fire with fire then I have to ask you. Why are we expecting a twelve year old child to be the bigger person to twenty-six year old man who is forcibly marrying her? Is her anger not valid? Doesn't she also have her dignity? 

[Curled Finger]

On 2/3/2021 at 8:19 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Littlefinger and Dontos sold her out. It was much more traumatic for Sansa. Tyrion is constantly insulted for his disability (which sucks) but I don't think Sansa ever knocks him for his stature. 

This is true, but I wanted to point out that refusing to lower herself to assist in a ceremony with her betrothed was a big knock on Tyrion's stature.  I didn't hate Sansa for refusing to participate in the ceremony.   Tyrion has been nothing but good to Sansa, though I understand she has no reason to love any of those Lannister bastards.  She couldn't know this guy was the 1 really good guy of the bunch.   She was still mean girl level 10 during the wedding.  

[Elegant Woes]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This is true, but I wanted to point out that refusing to lower herself to assist in a ceremony with her betrothed was a big knock on Tyrion's stature.  I didn't hate Sansa for refusing to participate in the ceremony.   Tyrion has been nothing but good to Sansa, though I understand she has no reason to love any of those Lannister bastards.  She couldn't know this guy was the 1 really good guy of the bunch.   She was still mean girl level 10 during the wedding.  

So what if Sansa was a mean girl to Tyrion? Don't you think her response was valid? If not then, pray tell, what is the appropriate way to respond to a man twice your age who is forcibly marrying you? To be clear I am not attacking you. I am just curious about what you think is the right course of action that Sansa should take. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This is true, but I wanted to point out that refusing to lower herself to assist in a ceremony with her betrothed was a big knock on Tyrion's stature.  I didn't hate Sansa for refusing to participate in the ceremony.   Tyrion has been nothing but good to Sansa, though I understand she has no reason to love any of those Lannister bastards.  She couldn't know this guy was the 1 really good guy of the bunch.   She was still mean girl level 10 during the wedding.  

He should have planned better since he at least had a warning of it. Tyrion could have considered using a mobility aid, like a stool, like many people with restricted growth. He didn't consider her feelings, that Sansa kneeling to her forced husband is just too much courtesy where it isn't deserved.

[Nathan Stark]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This is true, but I wanted to point out that refusing to lower herself to assist in a ceremony with her betrothed was a big knock on Tyrion's stature.  I didn't hate Sansa for refusing to participate in the ceremony.   Tyrion has been nothing but good to Sansa, though I understand she has no reason to love any of those Lannister bastards.  She couldn't know this guy was the 1 really good guy of the bunch.   She was still mean girl level 10 during the wedding.  

I would push back on Tyrion being "nothing but good" to Sansa. He saved her from being sexually assulted for Joffrey's amusement one time. And he was courteous and personally nice to her, unlike Cersei. He still ensured that she remained a hostage of the Lannisters, made no effort to un-betroth her to Joffrey when he was Hand of the King, and of course, agreed to marry her even though she was unwilling. Being the least bad of the Lannisters is still not the same as being good.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This is true, but I wanted to point out that refusing to lower herself to assist in a ceremony with her betrothed was a big knock on Tyrion's stature.  I didn't hate Sansa for refusing to participate in the ceremony.   Tyrion has been nothing but good to Sansa, though I understand she has no reason to love any of those Lannister bastards.  She couldn't know this guy was the 1 really good guy of the bunch.   She was still mean girl level 10 during the wedding.  

She’s a prisoner of the Lannisters.  Why should she extend courtesy to any one of them?  Tyrion might be the nicest of them to her, but he’s still serving a murderous regime at the highest level, as she would see it.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

She’s a prisoner of the Lannisters.  Why should she extend courtesy to any one of them?  Tyrion might be the nicest of them to her, but he’s still serving a murderous regime at the highest level, as she would see it.

While I agree with you, it was mostly petty and didn't give her anything. Basically she either thought that:

- A. Tyrion was in fact a bad guy, in which case antagonizing and humiliating him was not a good idea, especially with him being her husband now

- B. Tyrion was in fact a decent person, in which case antagonizing him is just mean.

In either case, it wasn't a good idea.

[Angel Eyes]

Question: how well did Tywin think that a dwarf, albeit his son, would come over as a suitable husband to the Starks as far as the Northern lords were concerned? They’re rather ableist, since two of Rickard Karstark’s sons say Bran should commit suicide because he’s paralyzed. Paralysis isn’t typically passed down, but dwarfism typically is.

[Darksnider05]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

While I agree with you, it was mostly petty and didn't give her anything. Basically she either thought that:

- A. Tyrion was in fact a bad guy, in which case antagonizing and humiliating him was not a good idea, especially with him being her husband now

- B. Tyrion was in fact a decent person, in which case antagonizing him is just mean.

In either case, it wasn't a good idea.

What does Tyrion being a good guy to her have to do with anything.  They are enemies there is no real friendship possible between them there can't ever be official public respect that Sansa can show without being labeled a traitor.  She's already disinherited for the simple possibility not that she knows this. 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

24 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

They are enemies there is no real friendship possible between them there can't ever be official public respect that Sansa can show without being labeled a traitor.

If she thinks they are enemies, then she should have been weary enough not to insult him. Yes, yes, I know feelings and such, but isn't Sansa's whole strategy looking meek and submissive?

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

So what if Sansa was a mean girl to Tyrion? Don't you think her response was valid? If not then, pray tell, what is the appropriate way to respond to a man twice your age who is forcibly marrying you? To be clear I am not attacking you. I am just curious about what you think is the right course of action that Sansa should take. 

I didn't mean to implicate that Sansa did anything wrong only to draw attention to the fact that even at this vulnerable state she is capable of some very independent action.   While I did not applaud her action during my reading of her wedding to Tyrion, I do think her behavior clearly stresses that there is a fiercely angry woman in this child. 

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I would push back on Tyrion being "nothing but good" to Sansa. He saved her from being sexually assulted for Joffrey's amusement one time. And he was courteous and personally nice to her, unlike Cersei. He still ensured that she remained a hostage of the Lannisters, made no effort to un-betroth her to Joffrey when he was Hand of the King, and of course, agreed to marry her even though she was unwilling. Being the least bad of the Lannisters is still not the same as being good.

Taken in the context in which Tyrion's efforts on Sansa's behalf are offered--she is a hostage, brutalized yet prized--I will argue he was among the very few who cared for her situation.   He could have taken liberties with her or been as mean to her as everyone else in Kings Landing had been.   Recall Cat and Jamie's belief that Tyrion was the key to Sansa's freedom.   Even his worst enemy and greatest fan had faith that Tyrion would do the right thing by Sansa.  

For curiosities sake, how could Tyrion have broken the betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey or set her free?  For all it's worth, I never interpreted Tyrion's own betrothal to Sansa as a thing he was particularly happy about.  He had every right to demand sex from the child he owned (goes to societal norms at the time) post wedding yet allowed her to make the choice.   I get being the least bad of the Lannisters is not the same as being good.  Still I would think this act alone speaks well of his character considering Tywin demanded he get Sansa pregnant post haste.  

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

She’s a prisoner of the Lannisters.  Why should she extend courtesy to any one of them?  Tyrion might be the nicest of them to her, but he’s still serving a murderous regime at the highest level, as she would see it.

Courtesy is an interesting choice of word here.  I waited for Sansa to be hit with arrows at the altar for her disobedience in not kneeling.  I will think about her defiance as extending courtesy.  As we are told repeatedly, courtesy is a lady's armor.   Sansa clearly had no thought of protecting herself here.  Perhaps this is the place we see Sansa begin to understand she has some power.  

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He should have planned better since he at least had a warning of it. Tyrion could have considered using a mobility aid, like a stool, like many people with restricted growth. He didn't consider her feelings, that Sansa kneeling to her forced husband is just too much courtesy where it isn't deserved.

Yah I've thought Tyrion should have foreseen the whole cloak pinning bit prior to the ceremony, too.  Rose, I don't think any lord was supposed to consider his bride's feelings about anything in these situations of old.   I get where you're coming from in contemporary terms.   Just not sure it's relative to the time and place Tyrion exists.   

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Question: how well did Tywin think that a dwarf, albeit his son, would come over as a suitable husband to the Starks as far as the Northern lords were concerned? They’re rather ableist, since two of Rickard Karstark’s sons say Bran should commit suicide because he’s paralyzed. Paralysis isn’t typically passed down, but dwarfism typically is.

I don't think Tywin thought anything at all about how Tyrion would be received in the North.   He said it would be done and those northern fools better damned well accept it or suffer the consequences.   The marriage was a power play, that's all.   Tywin didn't second guess his own ideas.   

[Rose of Red Lake]

43 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Yah I've thought Tyrion should have foreseen the whole cloak pinning bit prior to the ceremony, too.  Rose, I don't think any lord was supposed to consider his bride's feelings about anything in these situations of old.   I get where you're coming from in contemporary terms.   Just not sure it's relative to the time and place Tyrion exists.   

If Tyrion is praised for being kind, considerate, "nothing but good to Sansa" as you said, thats the standards I would expect. I don't give him credit for anything less than that.

[Mystical]

Tyrion was responsible himself for being in a situation where he could be humiliated. He knew damn well who chucked Bran out a window and started this whole nonsense. He, like every other Lannister, did everything in his power to keep an illegitimate regime in power. He bared responsibility for their atrocities, up to and including what happened to Sansa. He said before court that Sansa would be set free only to jail her to him for life, despite knowing that this illegitimate regime has no authority to marry Sansa off to anyone. He was happy at the prospect of getting some huge lands and a well mannered, beautiful child bride even though he could have refused. No one forced him to say yes (otherwise he wouldn't have offered another option to Sansa in the form of Lancel). He went along with his family for keeping the upcoming wedding a secret from Sansa. He could have planned something for the ceremony to mitigate their height difference. And he lied to Sansa, making himself out to be as much of a victim as she is. Heck he could have asked her politely to bend down instead of tugging at her dress like a petulant child.

There is no 'versus' here at all. There is a victim (Sansa) and a perpetrator (Tyrion).

[Nathan Stark]

10 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

While I agree with you, it was mostly petty and didn't give her anything. Basically she either thought that:

- A. Tyrion was in fact a bad guy, in which case antagonizing and humiliating him was not a good idea, especially with him being her husband now

- B. Tyrion was in fact a decent person, in which case antagonizing him is just mean.

In either case, it wasn't a good idea.

You can't really try to use logic and forethought in a situation like this. Sansa is a 12 year old child bride, not an automaton. She's not standing there thinking, "you know what? I'm gonna humiliate my dwarf husband by not kneeling, because the Lannisters are mean and I hate them." She's a terrified, humiliated adolescent who is openly crying at her forciably arranged marriage into a family that has held her against her will, abused her, threatened to kill her, murdered her father and forced her to watch. At the beginning of this chapter, Tyrion told Sansa that he would step aside and let her marry Lancel instead if she wanted to, since he might be more pleasing to look upon. You know what Sansa's reaction was? ""I don't want any Lannisters," she thought." Sansa isn't trying to "get" anything out of this situation. She's trying to survive yet another indignity forced on her by the Lannisters. No wonder she doesn't really want to consider the hurt feelings of the man she's being forced to marry. Because while Tyrion is also an abuse victim himself, he is in no way in as bad a situation as Sansa.