I know it's a tired topic, but tell me why A + N != J and R + L != A

[Egged]

So the whole Ashara plot sounds really complicated, almost non-sensical, if not even irrelevant, in the grand scheme of the story. But that's too weird. It has to make sense.

Then there is the oddity about Rhaegar having a child with Lyanna, considering the weird implications it would have regarding Elia, requiring some marriage annulment or her playing along, the kingdom somehow thinking "yep, totally normal and fine!", etc.

Then there is how Jon just happens to not look like a Targ at all (How lucky! Imagine if he had purple eyes or blond hair, that would have made the promise a bit harder to keep eh?)

And the list goes on really.

So tell me why the following makes no sense:

1- Ned gets Ashara pregnant, and Ned doesn't know it.

2- Rhaegar needs a third child, because "the dragon has three heads" really means "you can kill the dragon twice, a third head remains"; he knows two of his kids will be killed and he needs a third one.

3- He says literally "he is the prince that was promised", he doesn't say "they are", so this isn't some silly "I need three kids who will rule together" bit, that's just weird and contradictory to the prophecy and makes little sense overall. On top of that he says "his song is the song of ice and fire", which is again singular, and male. It also explains why it leads him to pick Lyanna, if in his mind Fire = Targ and Ice = Ice.

4- Ashara, being the sister of Arthur Dayne, is requested to give up her child to be used as a decoy. It's a duty of theirs to save the heir from potential assassination plots. Note that this is just like in Maurice Druon's The Accursed Kings which was the main inspiration for GRRM, where baby John king of France is swapped with a milk-maid's bastard baby to protect him from an assassination plot, but the plot succeeds in front of everyone so they can never swap him back. So what would have happened is that as soon as Lyanna gives birth to the child, the maid swaps the baby with Ashara's. Lyanna might not even see the child until days later due to her birth complications. She never realizes the child was swapped.

5- The reason Lyanna and the kingsguards are left hanging around at the Tower of Joy is a ruse, it's to attract Robert/Ned/Whoever would come for Lyanna, and hence the baby, in case the Targs lost the war. Which works exactly as expected now that they did lose the war.

6- Lyanna believes the child is hers and asks Ned to protect it. The name can be Aegon, with Rhaegar naming him as such, because the child is a replacement for the other dead Aegon, he's a backup; he's not a bastard, he doesn't need to annul his marriage to Elia, the child is automatically the true heir to the throne because for all anyone knows he IS Aegon and survived the sack of King's Landing, just as Young Griff's story claims. The dragon has three heads, this is the third head, the one that survived and is a replacement for the dead Aegon. It's basically the equivalent of a sci-fi cloning plot where a backup is made for the heir, not to succeed him but to replace him, without anyone knowing better.

7- Ned goes to Starfall to return Arthur's sword, and Ashara realizes that she can't get her child back now that the Targs did lose the war because it would expose the decoy plot, and she can't tell Ned the truth. She leaves with Rhaegar's child, under the cover story of a supposed suicide.

And that would put Bran in a very interesting position when he finds out the truth. He would chose to not reveal the truth to Jon, he would make Jon and Daenerys believe that Jon is Rhaegar's son, the heir to the throne, so as to use Jon against Daenerys and push Daenerys to her fall.

And you know what? Jon, is guilty of having done exactly that, with Gilly's baby.

To me, this makes a lot more sense as it removes all the weird complications with the current R + L = J story.

 

[lehutin]

1 hour ago, Egged said:

Then there is the oddity about Rhaegar having a child with Lyanna, considering the weird implications it would have regarding Elia, requiring some marriage annulment or her playing along, the kingdom somehow thinking "yep, totally normal and fine!", etc.

You seem to be claiming that this is a "weird complication" for R+L=J, yet you are arguing R+L=A, so...why is there no "weird complication" for R+L=A?

 

1 hour ago, Egged said:

Then there is how Jon just happens to not look like a Targ at all (How lucky! Imagine if he had purple eyes or blond hair, that would have made the promise a bit harder to keep eh?)

Not every Targ has the look. Princess Rhaenys looked like a Martell. As did Baelor Breakspear.

 

So for starters, your list of supposed problems with R+L=J aren't really problems at all. That said,

 

1 hour ago, Egged said:

4- Ashara, being the sister of Arthur Dayne, is requested to give up her child to be used as a decoy. It's a duty of theirs to save the heir from potential assassination plots. Note that this is just like in Maurice Druon's The Accursed Kings which was the main inspiration for GRRM, where baby John king of France is swapped with a milk-maid's bastard baby to protect him from an assassination plot, but the plot succeeds in front of everyone so they can never swap him back. So what would have happened is that as soon as Lyanna gives birth to the child, the maid swaps the baby with Ashara's. Lyanna might not even see the child until days later due to her birth complications. She never realizes the child was swapped.

 

Regardless of who you think Jon's parents are, Jon and Robb are of similar age. So for N+A=J to be the case, that would mean Ned had sex with Ashara shortly before he married Catelyn. Or shortly after, if you think Ned wasn't a faithful husband.

 

Either way, how does the timeline work, even roughly speaking? When/where did Ned have sex with Ashara?

[Egged]

38 minutes ago, lehutin said:

You seem to be claiming that this is a "weird complication" for R+L=J, yet you are arguing R+L=A, so...why is there no "weird complication" for R+L=A?

 

Not every Targ has the look. Princess Rhaenys looked like a Martell. As did Baelor Breakspear.

 

So for starters, your list of supposed problems with R+L=J aren't really problems at all. That said,

 

 

Regardless of who you think Jon's parents are, Jon and Robb are of similar age. So for N+A=J to be the case, that would mean Ned had sex with Ashara shortly before he married Catelyn. Or shortly after, if you think Ned wasn't a faithful husband.

 

Either way, how does the timeline work, even roughly speaking? When/where did Ned have sex with Ashara?

For your first question, if Rhaegar planned to have his son with Lyanna literally be a backup of Aegon, he would have never made the announcement public that Lyanna had anything to do with anything. Elia can't give birth, but the child would have been believed to be hers. Aegon would have died, and the (R+L)Aegon would have just replaced him. To the people, Aegon would have never been known to have died, he would be Rhaegar and Elia's son. Just like Young Griff is currently believed to be.

So for (R+L)Aegon to serve as a backup, it is implicit that Lyanna being his mother be kept secret, hence there is no need to annul the marriage to Elia, to have a new queen and somehow have people accept this.

People here are always questioning how Rhaegar would have explained that he had a child with Lyanna, why would Elia accept, Dorne wouldn't be happy, etc. Well there is no need for such explanations if Rhaegar never planned to reveal the child wasn't Elia, and that Elia was going to keep that secret as well. To her and those involved in the plot, Lyanna is just a surrogate mother for TPWWP, the third head of the dragon, the only one expected to survive. Everything goes back to normal after the war, and no one knows better that the Aegon who supposedly survive is actually replacement, the same way it worked out in the end now that Aegon is back and claims to have survived.

"Not every Targ has the look", sure, but what a luck that Jon didn't! Except it would have been a non-issue in any case if the child was just a temporary decoy to avoid an assassination plot, where Jon would have been believed to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's child no matter if he looked like a Stark or Targ, killed, while the real one survived in Starfall.

As for when Ashara/Ned's bastard would have been conceived, some time around when they met, or he was Brandon's child.

[Megorova]

Elia's Aegon was born in very early 282, while Jon was born in late 283 (same as Robb), there's nearly 2 years of age difference between them. fAegon/Young Griff is older than Jon.

9 minutes ago, Egged said:

Aegon would have died, and the (R+L)Aegon would have just replaced him.

Why would he have died? Nobody, not Rhaegar, Lyanna, Elia, no one expected that something will happen to Elia's Aegon. The boy's death, same as his sister's and his mother's death was unexpected. Rhaegar didn't planned for his child with Lyanna to be anyone's replacement.

Your theory doesn't make sense.

13 minutes ago, Egged said:

"Not every Targ has the look", sure, but what a luck that Jon didn't!

It's not luck, it's genetics. Lyanna had grey eyes and brown hair, while Rhaegar had "blond" hair and "blue" eyes. The child inherites half of his genes from the mother and half from the father. Brown hair alleles + blond hair alleles = the child has brown hair, because brown alleles are dominant and blond are recessive. The same thing with the eye color, blue is recessive and grey is dominant.

In case if Jon had Targaryen/Valyrian looks instead of Stark/First Men, then Eddard wouldn't have taken him to Winterfell, and wouldn't have presented him to everyone as his bastard. Instead he would have had to send him away, somewhere safe. But because Jon looked more like his mother than like his father (the same thing was with Rhaegar's and Elia's first child, Princess Rhaenys, who had her mother's brown hair and brown eyes), Eddard was able to keep the child, and didn't had to send Jon away.

21 minutes ago, Egged said:

To her and those involved in the plot, Lyanna is just a surrogate mother for TPWWP, the third head of the dragon, the only one expected to survive. Everything goes back to normal after the war, and no one knows better that the Aegon who supposedly survive is actually replacement

And again - a newborn child as a replacement for a child that is nearly 2 years old wouldn't have worked.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

R + L = J does not necessitate a secret marriage or annulment, Elia being in on it, or Dorne being ok with it. 

4 hours ago, Egged said:

2- Rhaegar needs a third child, because "the dragon has three heads" really means "you can kill the dragon twice, a third head remains"; he knows two of his kids will be killed and he needs a third one.

There's absolutely no evidence that he believed this.

4 hours ago, Egged said:

3- He says literally "he is the prince that was promised", he doesn't say "they are", so this isn't some silly "I need three kids who will rule together" bit, that's just weird and contradictory to the prophecy and makes little sense overall. On top of that he says "his song is the song of ice and fire", which is again singular, and male. It also explains why it leads him to pick Lyanna, if in his mind Fire = Targ and Ice = Ice.

He says this about Aegon, Elia Martell's son, which would seem to undercut your idea that Rhaegar expected him to die.

4 hours ago, Egged said:

So what would have happened is that as soon as Lyanna gives birth to the child, the maid swaps the baby with Ashara's. Lyanna might not even see the child until days later due to her birth complications. She never realizes the child was swapped.

You find it hard to believe that Jon has Stark features (as if that's not something the author has full control and discretion over to make his story work, even setting aside that it's totally normal based on genetics), but it's completely plausible to you that Lyanna (and Ned) believe a baby that would be well over a year old by that point is her newborn infant? You also undermine your own skepticism of Jon's features here. You can't believe he'd look like a Stark, but the people making this plan expect everyone to believe a Stark/Dayne baby is a Targaryen (and it works)? Do you not see the contradiction there? Also, what if the baby had been a girl? Or come out with Lyanna's features? The replacement theory is already very weak considering the age gap, no way of knowing that Aegon would be bashed beyond recognition with no witnesses besides the Mountain, etc. and these are just obvious additional problems with the idea.

4 hours ago, Egged said:

5- The reason Lyanna and the kingsguards are left hanging around at the Tower of Joy is a ruse, it's to attract Robert/Ned/Whoever would come for Lyanna, and hence the baby, in case the Targs lost the war. Which works exactly as expected now that they did lose the war.

In addition to the prior point, we're supposed to believe that Rhaegar expected his two children with Elia to die and did nothing to ensure their safety, but planned an elaborate baby swap ruse to trick the rebels in case he lost? Given how high infant mortality was in those days, wouldn't it be easier to just fake the baby's death? Or ensure Lyanna isn't found, if this was all preplanned? 

4 hours ago, Egged said:

6- Lyanna believes the child is hers and asks Ned to protect it.

You lament that RLJ is complicated, but your theory is that Ned does in fact raise Jon believing him to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, but he's actually secretly his own son because of a baby swap scheme that's hinted at nowhere in the text? How is that not more complicated? The fundamental problem with R + L = A is that it's a theory nobody ever comes to directly based on the text. It more or less exists solely to fill a hole in N or B + A = J. Your position is that George put a bunch of hints in AGOT subtly pointing to R + L = J, but that this is actually a fakeout because Ned was deceived and their child is actually a kid introduced four books later who has not been hinted at all to have any connection to Lyanna. Isn't it a lot simpler if those R + L = J hints are because Jon is in fact their kid?

 

4 hours ago, Egged said:

Ashara realizes that she can't get her child back now that the Targs did lose the war because it would expose the decoy plot, and she can't tell Ned the truth.

Why would she have only realized then that this would happen? And does she not tell Ned that he'll actually be raising their own child because she's afraid he'll expose Lyanna's son to Robert and everyone else? Because Jon actually having a publicly known mother would help make the lie more believable and give people less reason to wonder or speculate about his parentage.

 

54 minutes ago, Egged said:

To her and those involved in the plot, Lyanna is just a surrogate mother for TPWWP, the third head of the dragon, the only one expected to survive.

Was Lyanna just being used in this scenario? If she had survived childbirth and the Targs had won the war, what was the expectation? That she keep quiet as her son is passed off as Elia's (who was almost two years older)?

This theory is way more complicated and based on the text much less than R+L = J is. Your main objections to RLJ are less troubling than the problems with this theory even if you assume all of those objections must be true for R + L = J to be true, which isn't even necessarily the case.

[lehutin]

50 minutes ago, Egged said:

For your first question, if Rhaegar planned to have his son with Lyanna literally be a backup of Aegon, he would have never made the announcement public that Lyanna had anything to do with anything.

Well, Rhaegar did make a public announcement that Lyanna had something to do with something: he crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty. So right off the bat, your theory is not even consistent with the text.

 

56 minutes ago, Egged said:

"Not every Targ has the look", sure, but what a luck that Jon didn't! Except it would have been a non-issue in any case if the child was just a temporary decoy to avoid an assassination plot, where Jon would have been believed to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's child no matter if he looked like a Stark or Targ, killed, while the real one survived in Starfall.

So you admit that Jon's features are

1. not a problem for R+L=J, and
2. not even relevant for your alternative theory.

1 hour ago, Egged said:

As for when Ashara/Ned's bastard would have been conceived, some time around when they met, or he was Brandon's child.

OK, I guess you haven't really thought any of this through. 

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

Timeline Recap:

281: Ned meets Ashara at the Tourney at Harrenhal
282- Abduction of Lyanna and deaths of Rickard and Brandon
282-283- Roberts Rebellion
283- Robb Stark born at Riverrun
284- Tower of Joy
 

283: Jon Arryn calls the banners
- Ned goes through the mountains and fingers (roughly 26-31 days about 470-570 miles)
- Ned than takes a fishing boat to Sisterton (roughly 15 days about 590-650 miles)
- Ned takes a boat to White Harbor (roughly 4 days about 420 miles)
- Ned rides or takes boat upriver to Winterfell (roughly 10 days 630 miles) (He leaves Ashara in White Harbor. Most likely being hidden in the Wolfs Den)
- Ned waits for his banner men to arrive at least 41 days (It is at this time Ned probably made a trip back to White Harbor to spend time with Ashara while he waits for his banner men. They do the tango a few times and she becomes pregnant with Jon.)
- Ned and Co march south to the crossing to meet Jon Arryn (roughly 83 days about 16650 miles)
- Ned Marches to Riverrun (about 24 days 470 miles)
- Ned rides to Stoney Sept (Battle of the Bells) to save Robert (about 8 days roughly 280 miles)
- Ned marches back to Riverrun to Marry Cat (about 10-14 days roughly 280 miles)
- Battle of the Trident 130 days later
- Dany is conceived prior to the sack of Kings Landing
-Sack of KL about 15 days later
- Jon is born (within a month of Dany's conception)

 

[lehutin]

14 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Timeline Recap:

281: Ned meets Ashara at the Tourney at Harrenhal
282- Abduction of Lyanna and deaths of Rickard and Brandon
282-283- Roberts Rebellion
283- Robb Stark born at Riverrun
284- Tower of Joy
 

283: Jon Arryn calls the banners
- Ned goes through the mountains and fingers (roughly 26-31 days about 470-570 miles)
- Ned than takes a fishing boat to Sisterton (roughly 15 days about 590-650 miles)
- Ned takes a boat to White Harbor (roughly 4 days about 420 miles)
- Ned rides or takes boat upriver to Winterfell (roughly 10 days 630 miles) (He leaves Ashara in White Harbor. Most likely being hidden in the Wolfs Den)
- Ned waits for his banner men to arrive at least 41 days (It is at this time Ned probably made a trip back to White Harbor to spend time with Ashara while he waits for his banner men. They do the tango a few times and she becomes pregnant with Jon.)
- Ned and Co march south to the crossing to meet Jon Arryn (roughly 83 days about 16650 miles)
- Ned Marches to Riverrun (about 24 days 470 miles)
- Ned rides to Stoney Sept (Battle of the Bells) to save Robert (about 8 days roughly 280 miles)
- Ned marches back to Riverrun to Marry Cat (about 10-14 days roughly 280 miles)
- Battle of the Trident 130 days later
- Dany is conceived prior to the sack of Kings Landing
-Sack of KL about 15 days later
- Jon is born (within a month of Dany's conception)

 

This would make Jon at least 4.5 months (10 days from White Harbor back to Winterfell + 83 + 24 + 8 + 10, divided by 30) older than Robb. If N+A="J" were conceived earlier during the 41 day period, then Jon would be even older.

 

4.5 months is nothing when you're already grown, but for two babies, it's very noticeable.

 

Also, if (not putting words in your mouth, just saying) you want to play the "Robb Stark is his father's son" card, then it would seem really out of character for Ned to have sex with Ashara multiple times and act like it's just a hookup.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

33 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

284- Tower of Joy

Lyanna died in 283 not 284.

[Nathan Stark]

The trouble with all of these alternative theories to R+L=J is that they are all needlessly convoluted and complicated for no good reason. RLJ has not only the benefit of solid textual backing and a relatively straightforward sequence of events, it also adds emotional depth and complexity to all the characters involved. At this point, the alternatives all read more as a Shyamalan twist than good storytelling.

[Daeron the Daring]

9 hours ago, Egged said:

the third head of the dragon, the only one expected to survive

That's bullshit. This all happened becaude Rhaegar died at the Trident, where he tought he will win and survive. He never tought he will lose, tho (shown by what he daid to Jamie).

[lehutin]

11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

The trouble with all of these alternative theories to R+L=J is that they are all needlessly convoluted and complicated for no good reason.

For people like OP, that's a feature, not a bug. They believe that R+L=J is too simple, too obvious, doesn't explain what happened to Ashara, etc. So they come up with convoluted, complicated stories on purpose.

[Frey family reunion]

I’m as skeptical of the premise that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s secret love child as anyone.  But one of the reasons I’m skeptical of it, is that Jon’s story arc and his internal conflict wouldn’t be paid off with this reveal.  You can try and dissect timelines and jump to conclusions based on common fantasy tropes all you want, but when the author doesn’t structure his story to make this big reveal a pay off either for Jon’s story arc or something that furthers or helps absolve his internal conflict then we’re dealing with bad writing.

Jon’s internal conflict is and remains his duty towards the Night’s Watch vs. his desire for Winterfell.  George continued this conflict all the way up to Jon’s apparent demise.  Having a late reveal that Jon has a claim to the Iron Throne wouldn’t further the story line that GRRM has painstakingly cultivated over the course of the story.

Having said that, Jon being the son of Ashara Dayne doesn’t really add much more to this story arc either.  And as much as I think if the tease that Rhaegar is Jon’s dad is a bit too obvious and on the nose, the fact that Ashara was teased as Jon’s mother so early and so overtly makes me question this possibility as well.

If there is a secret child of Ashara Dayne out there, I think the likeliest possibility, is that it is Allyria Dayne, and her grandparents are raising her as if she is their child.  

[CamiloRP]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m as skeptical of the premise that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s secret love child as anyone.  But one of the reasons I’m skeptical of it, is that Jon’s story arc and his internal conflict wouldn’t be paid off with this reveal.  You can try and dissect timelines and jump to conclusions based on common fantasy tropes all you want, but when the author doesn’t structure his story to make this big reveal a pay off either for Jon’s story arc or something that furthers or helps absolve his internal conflict then we’re dealing with bad writing.

Jon’s internal conflict is and remains his duty towards the Night’s Watch vs. his desire for Winterfell.  George continued this conflict all the way up to Jon’s apparent demise.  Having a late reveal that Jon has a claim to the Iron Throne wouldn’t further the story line that GRRM has painstakingly cultivated over the course of the story.

Having said that, Jon being the son of Ashara Dayne doesn’t really add much more to this story arc either.  And as much as I think if the tease that Rhaegar is Jon’s dad is a bit too obvious and on the nose, the fact that Ashara was teased as Jon’s mother so early and so overtly makes me question this possibility as well.

If there is a secret child of Ashara Dayne out there, I think the likeliest possibility, is that it is Allyria Dayne, and her grandparents are raising her as if she is their child.  

Just out of curiosity, who do you think are Jon's parents? I thank that if they aren't R+L the obvious candidate would be Brandon and someone else, this would further his arc by giving him a rather strong claim to WF.

[lehutin]

25 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Just out of curiosity, who do you think are Jon's parents? I thank that if they aren't R+L the obvious candidate would be Brandon and someone else, this would further his arc by giving him a rather strong claim to WF.

GRRM is on record as saying that 

Quote

It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

Even if we exclude this word of God, suppose that B+?=trueborn J. An inevitable implication is that Ned Stark is actually a POS scumbag uncle who scammed his nephew out of his rightful inheritance of Winterfell. And for what? "Expectations subverted"?

 

B+?=bastard J has no claim to Winterfell, and there's also no reason for Ned to lie about Jon's parents in that scenario either.

[Frey family reunion]

44 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Just out of curiosity, who do you think are Jon's parents? I thank that if they aren't R+L the obvious candidate would be Brandon and someone else, this would further his arc by giving him a rather strong claim to WF.

While Rhaegar is the more obvious and perhaps safer bet, my suspicion is that Jon's father is Brandon.  

16 minutes ago, lehutin said:

GRRM is on record as saying that 

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

Even if we exclude this word of God, suppose that B+?=trueborn J. An inevitable implication is that Ned Stark is actually a POS scumbag uncle who scammed his nephew out of his rightful inheritance of Winterfell. And for what? "Expectations subverted"?

 

B+?=bastard J has no claim to Winterfell, and there's also no reason for Ned to lie about Jon's parents in that scenario either.

Don't confuse legal technicalities with matters of the heart.  Whether or not Jon is secretly legitimate, (and I tend to agree that he's not), finding out that you've been lied to about who your actual father is going to be an emotional impact.  The emotional impact is made even greater if Jon's father is someone who had the first claim to Winterfell then the person who lied and claimed you as his son.  Because then you have to question the motivations of the person who raised you as his son.  It also starts to beg the question why didn't Ned try to legitimize Jon.  Especially when Ned's best friend was one who could legally erase the taint of being a bastard on Jon.  Jon might start to wonder if Ned failed to do this because it might put Jon ahead of Ned's children in the line of succession. 

This scenario would then also reach back and highlight Jon's external conflict with Cat, and perhaps explain why Ned never confided in Cat as to who Jon's true father was.   Cat's enmity to Jon relates both to Jon's existence as proof of betrayal and as a threat to her children's inheritence.  Finding out that Jon is the child of her first love, Brandon would certainly not lessen the sting of betrayal and it would position Jon as an even greater threat to her children's inheritence.

But I agree, that Ned would be a scumbag if he lied to Jon solely to protect his family's inheritence and not to upset his wife.  If Ned knowingly lied to Jon, my guess is he did it because the truth would be more harmful to Jon then the lie.  And there is really only one parentage possibility which would fit the bill (no matter how distasteful) and perhaps explain why Jon's dreams keep pulling him to the Winterfell crypts.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, lehutin said:

GRRM is on record as saying that 

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

Even if we exclude this word of God, suppose that B+?=trueborn J. An inevitable implication is that Ned Stark is actually a POS scumbag uncle who scammed his nephew out of his rightful inheritance of Winterfell. And for what? "Expectations subverted"?

 

B+?=bastard J has no claim to Winterfell, and there's also no reason for Ned to lie about Jon's parents in that scenario either.

I never said that Jon was legitimate, but still. inheritance is complicated, and some people could definitely believe he comes before any of Ned's children.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

I never said that Jon was legitimate, but still. inheritance is complicated, and some people could definitely believe he comes before any of Ned's children.

With how common it is for highborn men to have bastards, it has to be a fairly regular occurrence for eldest sons to die with only illegitimate issue, and I don't find it plausible that this would be such a threat to Ned's kids that he would lie and claim that Jon was his own bastard son (also, how and why would he would pass Jon off as being younger than Robb?). And from a meta POV, it's not a compelling twist in the story at all for either Jon or Ned.

[lehutin]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you decide you want to have a discussion that's fine.  If you want to be a fucking asshole, then keep at it.

If you're seriously arguing that, quote, "there is really only one parentage possibility which would fit the bill (no matter how distasteful)" (i.e., B+L=J), then not sorry, you deserve the laughter you get.

[lehutin]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That’s ok, intelligent discourse isn’t your thing, but you got a great future in being an asshole.  Congrats.

I don't know why you're so mad. You've previously promoted B+L=J, and I've previously said that it's porn-level writing.