Jump to content

Heresy 234 and the coming of Winter


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Sansa by snowflake communion?

I'm thinking that Dany is joined with the soul of fire, which is both the dragon in the wake the dragon dream and the man wreathed in flame.  One of the old powers Mirri wakes the soul of fire and the soul of ice; the great wolf that Dany cannot see.   She represents the love side of the equation.

On the other side is someone who will join with the soul of ice.  The hate side of the equation.  I think that will be 'stick them with the pointy end" Jon.  Not sure what the soul of ice will be but it emanates the killing cold in the same way that fire made flesh affects ambient fire magic.

The White Walkers seem to be the equivalent of dragons but they are ice made flesh.  So I'd say they also bring the cold with them.  And ice magic is stronger wherever they show up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

"Cold as ice."

Can we map White Walker occurrences to wargs in fury nearby?

Unfortunately wargs and WWs are like Superman and Clark Kent: no one has seen them in the same place at the same time yet.

We are told that Will and Gared all day "felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not". Who was watching them? a warg, a greenseer, the trees?

With Sam, he was the desperate one that was getting in an out of consciousness before the WW showed up.

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

A bit unrelated and in my opinion contradicting: with the White Walkers in the GoT prologue looking like brothers, silblings, I wonder whether each weirwood produces a White Walker by default and they look similar as the weirwoods look similar?

Will describes the WW as "twins" and "faceless". Not clear yet if this was due to Will watching from afar or if they are really identical copies. One day we might be able to do more comparisons :-(

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm thinking that Dany is joined with the soul of fire, which is both the dragon in the wake the dragon dream and the man wreathed in flame.  One of the old powers Mirri wakes the soul of fire and the soul of ice; the great wolf that Dany cannot see.   She represents the love side of the equation.

On the other side is someone who will join with the soul of ice.  The hate side of the equation.  I think that will be 'stick them with the pointy end" Jon.  Not sure what the soul of ice will be but it emanates the killing cold in the same way that fire made flesh affects ambient fire magic.

The White Walkers seem to be the equivalent of dragons but they are ice made flesh.  So I'd say they also bring the cold with them.  And ice magic is stronger wherever they show up.

The soul of ice might a distributed collective more than a central entity. In Bran's dream we have the thousand dreamers impaled in the ice spears. Then we have the cold dreams and events around Jon, Theon, Varamyr and Jamie, Sansa's snowflake communion, Bran's tree-voice that is as "cold as hate" and Lady Stoneheart words that are "a stream as cold as ice".

Then we have Dany and Arya that are offered cups of ice/cold and cup of fire. For Dany:

Quote

… the shape of shadows … morrows not yet made … drink from the cup of icedrink from the cup of fire

And for Arya:

Quote

"Before you drink from the cold cup, you must offer up all you are to Him of Many Faces. Your body. Your soul. Yourself. If you cannot bring yourself to do that, you must leave this place."

Quote

That evening Umma served salt-crusted crabs for supper. When her cup was presented to her, the blind girl wrinkled her nose and drank it down in three long gulps. Then she gasped and dropped the cup. Her tongue was on fire, and when she gulped a cup of wine the flames spread down her throat and up her nose.

"Wine will not help, and water will just fan the flames," the waif told her. "Eat this." A heel of bread was pressed into her hand. The girl stuffed it in her mouth, chewed, swallowed. It helped. A second chunk helped more.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The soul of ice might a distributed collective more than a central entity. In Bran's dream we have the thousand dreamers impaled in the ice spears. Then we have the cold dreams and events around Jon, Theon, Varamyr and Jamie, Sansa's snowflake communion, Bran's tree-voice that is as cold as hate, Lady Stoneheart words that are "a stream as cold as ice".

I'm thinking the soul of ice is contained in the original sword ice.  These magical swords absorb the soul.  Something that is in the crypts of Winterfell.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IV

"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked.

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. "Do you dream of Horn Hill?" Jon asked.

It's not the Kings of Winter he's afraid of.  But something else. Perhaps something containing the soul of ice.  Potentially the White Walkers contain the souls of the KoW or Starks who are wargs.. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn III

"Sometimes," Catelyn said slowly, "the best thing you can do is nothing. When I first came to Winterfell, I was hurt whenever Ned went to the godswood to sit beneath his heart tree. Part of his soul was in that tree, I knew, a part I would never share. Yet without that part, I soon realized, he would not have been Ned. Jeyne, child, you have wed the north, as I did . . . and in the north, the winters will come." She tried to smile. "Be patient. Be understanding. He loves you and he needs you, and he will come back to you soon enough. This very night, perhaps. Be there when he does. That is all I can tell you."

If weirwoods contain a part of the souls of Starks, and they are freed to become WW's,  perhaps this is the frozen hell Ned dreams of.

Ice might be an obsidian sword that draws out the cold or the soul.  Possibly even a sword made of magical ice.. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Circling back for a moment to the discussion about White Walkers coming out of the Weirwoods and that they are possible "essences" of former greenseers.  I hit the pause button on the whole cold aspect, so lets chalk that up to me being Hans Brinker with thumb firmly inserted.

I saw on Facebook today (yes...I do visit other sites besides this one) where people were placing their faces inside snow drifts, leaving very descript images of themselves in the impacted snows.  If you don't live in the central part of the states we are having heavy snowfalls and very, very low temperatures.  Actually saw one person do this several times and the image, while the same, came out different each time, which got me thinking about the images in the Weirwood trees (laughing, smiling, crying, etc.).  I'd post a link but have found that I've quite deficient in this category on this website and I don't see @JNR present to bail me out, so you'll have to google.

I'm struck by the recent commentary that greenseers, or warg's, or whatever essence it is can be imprinted into the Weirwood's only to be pulled back out with "unforeseen consequences of magic".  Yes, possibly the cold.  To go a step further, I like the notion of greenseers, or warg's rather than Starks being the soul absorbed into the Weirwoods and thus popping back out as icicles.  The Stark's importance is strictly from a martial point of view as it relates to first men blood.

My two cents.  I don't post a lot and was struck by what I saw today with the snow imprints.  This Heresy and the last one have been very thought provoking.

NOTE:  by use of the word 'imprinted' I am by no means calling out or encouraging the Twilight contingency (or the Jacob faction as in wolf).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, alienarea said:

Sansa by snowflake communion?

In the immediate term this is a reference to the Stark link to Winter/Ice/Cold, but it also links to the White Walkers seen by Will in the prologue looking like brothers, and remember also that although not explicitly identified as such their features are very Stark-like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Circling back for a moment to the discussion about White Walkers coming out of the Weirwoods and that they are possible "essences" of former greenseers.  I hit the pause button on the whole cold aspect, so lets chalk that up to me being Hans Brinker with thumb firmly inserted.

I saw on Facebook today (yes...I do visit other sites besides this one) where people were placing their faces inside snow drifts, leaving very descript images of themselves in the impacted snows.  If you don't live in the central part of the states we are having heavy snowfalls and very, very low temperatures.  Actually saw one person do this several times and the image, while the same, came out different each time, which got me thinking about the images in the Weirwood trees (laughing, smiling, crying, etc.).  I'd post a link but have found that I've quite deficient in this category on this website and I don't see @JNR present to bail me out, so you'll have to google.

I'm struck by the recent commentary that greenseers, or warg's, or whatever essence it is can be imprinted into the Weirwood's only to be pulled back out with "unforeseen consequences of magic".  Yes, possibly the cold.  To go a step further, I like the notion of greenseers, or warg's rather than Starks being the soul absorbed into the Weirwoods and thus popping back out as icicles.  The Stark's importance is strictly from a martial point of view as it relates to first men blood.

My two cents.  I don't post a lot and was struck by what I saw today with the snow imprints.  This Heresy and the last one have been very thought provoking.

NOTE:  by use of the word 'imprinted' I am by no means calling out or encouraging the Twilight contingency (or the Jacob faction as in wolf).

 

Snow imprints and maybe the weirwood faces are a form of hollow face illusions. To the human brain they look like convex shapes that track or follow the movement of the viewer. You can find some great examples in youtube. For example this one with cardboard dragons:

Or this one with Einstein:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/16/2021 at 7:39 PM, LynnS said:

I'm thinking the soul of ice is contained in the original sword ice.  These magical swords absorb the soul.  Something that is in the crypts of Winterfell.

It's not the Kings of Winter he's afraid of.  But something else. Perhaps something containing the soul of ice.  Potentially the White Walkers contain the souls of the KoW or Starks who are wargs.. 

If weirwoods contain a part of the souls of Starks, and they are freed to become WW's,  perhaps this is the frozen hell Ned dreams of.

Ice might be an obsidian sword that draws out the cold or the soul.  Possibly even a sword made of magical ice.. 

Out of curiosity, why are you looking for a soul drinking sword on the ice side? As a parallel to Lightbringer that consumed Nissa Nissa?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Tucu said:

Out of curiosity, why are you looking for a soul drinking sword on the ice side? As a parallel to Lightbringer that consumed Nissa Nissa?

Yes, I think there's a symmetry to ice and fire where comparisons show specific holes by design.  Also because Melisandre is searching specifically for the soul of ice.  I think that particular soul is entrapped in ice of another kind, a sword of magical ice which may be hidden in the crypts.  I still think Martin has produced his own Musgrave mystery when it comes to the crown of the Kings of Winter and the sword Ice  Potentially the danger of claiming a sword with a soul of ice is that you become the soul of ice. 

As you point out, there are varying strengths or degrees of magic depending on the one who wields it.  I've given two examples on the fire side.   Strangely, Melisandre says her power is increasing simply by approximation to the Wall.

We have seen Dany become the bride of fire, a transformation and a joining of her soul with the soul of fire, which gave her temporary immunity to fire, the hatching of dragon eggs and the resulting increase in ambient fire magic.

So I look for something that is similar or equivalent or opposite on the ice side.  Life and death, love and hate, light and dark.  If Dany is representing life, love and light ; the opposite soul will be death, dark, hate.   I'm guessing it will be Jon who becomes the personification of the soul of ice.  Something that will be orders of magnitude greater on the magic scale than wights or white walkers.  Especially if he taps into the magic of the Wall as Melisandre suggests.

It may be that all disparate manifestation of ice magic: the cold, the wights, the WW are missing one thing; the King of Winter. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll go a little further today and say that I can see a way for love and hate can mate to quote Jojen,  What he is talking about is fire and ice.

Going back to one of Syrio's early lessons; the sword and the one who holds it are not separate.  If a magical sword can contain a soul as in Lightbringer and this is the soul of love; then it could follow that the soul of ice could be cleansed or transformed by plunging a sword into the heart of one who is like Nissa Nissa.   In this case Dany or Dany transformed into a dragon.

The cleansing fire would be drawn into the sword, say Longclaw and the sword itself would cleanse the soul of ice once and for all. 

This:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice

"R'hllor," Ser Godry sang, "we give you now four evil men. With glad hearts and true, we give them to your cleansing fires, that the darkness in their souls might be burned away. Let their vile flesh be seared and blackened, that their spirits might rise free and pure to ascend into the light. Accept their blood, Oh lord, and melt the icy chains that bind your servants. Hear their pain, and grant strength to our swords that we might shed the blood of your enemies. Accept this sacrifice, and show us the way to Winterfell, that we might vanquish the unbelievers."

 

The bolded part describes what happens to Dany in the wake the dragon dream.  The same thing has to happen to the soul of ice.  This is a spiritual cleansing.  In the very end, I think Dany has to sacrifice herself and her last dragon for love.

Then Jon must plunge that fiery sword into the Wall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I reread that passage about Azor Ahai plunging his sword into Nissa Nissa's heart - the one thing that he loved the most - it was to infuse his blade with the fiery passion of his love in order to do battle with icy hate.

@LynnS you are looking for someone that drank from the cup of ice. The Blind Girl (Arya) drank from the cold cup (of revenge?) and it burned her tongue and throat with "flames". Ice burns just as fire does so I think this was the cold cup that she drank from.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

When I reread that passage about Azor Ahai plunging his sword into Nissa Nissa's heart - the one thing that he loved the most - it was to infuse his blade with the fiery passion of his love in order to do battle with icy hate.

@LynnS you are looking for someone that drank from the cup of ice. The Blind Girl (Arya) drank from the cold cup (of revenge?) and it burned her tongue and throat with "flames". Ice burns just as fire does so I think this was the cold cup that she drank from.

Well does the ice dragon have three heads also?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The issue could be brutally direct in the end. Ice and Fire left unchecked are both a baaad thing, but perhaps they need to confront each other directly. Ultimately that might mean Jon Snow and Danaerys the Dragonlord getting it together, but I'd be more inclined to look for mutually assured destruction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

The issue could be brutally direct in the end. Ice and Fire left unchecked are both a baaad thing, but perhaps they need to confront each other directly. Ultimately that might mean Jon Snow and Danaerys the Dragonlord getting it together, but I'd be more inclined to look for mutually assured destruction.

I don't think they will be getting together in regular sense of, well... getting together..  I do see a confrontation where mutual destruction is the outcome.  Something that also takes down the Wall.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think they will be getting together in regular sense of, well... getting together..  I do see a confrontation where mutual destruction is the outcome.  Something that also takes down the Wall.  

Oh absolutely, that would be way too cheesy, I was thinking more of hands around the throat. but the Wall dividing Ice and Fire has to come down - and its going to take more than a cunning plan by Mance Rayder to dothat

Blood built it,

Blood stopped the Building of it,

Blood will bring it down,

Black will be its fall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Oh absolutely, that would be way too cheesy, I was thinking more of hands around the throat. but the Wall dividing Ice and Fire has to come down - and its going to take more than a cunning plan by Mance Rayder to dothat

Blood built it,

Blood stopped the Building of it,

Blood will bring it down,

Black will be its fall.

When we talk about blood; is that blood magic or blood ties?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess the bottom line is that GRRM build up expectations much too high for the conclusion he intends to give and decided not to end the series.

It is almost ten years since he released ADwD. Apparently, even a pandemic didn't give him enough time to complete the next book. 

Jon killing Daenerys and Bran becoming king of Westeros is the only end we are going to get.

This is far worse than the final season of Lost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

 

Jon killing Daenerys and Bran becoming king of Westeros is the only end we are going to get.

 

I think that both may come true, but while GRRM may have been compelled to tell the mummers how it ultimately ends, he obviously hasn't told them how it comes about and why.

As I've pointed out before Bran becoming king is very consistent with the Mabinogion, but the head of Bran Bendigeidfran watching over the kingdom from a cave under a white hill is altogether different from what was served up by the mummers and likewise Jon, as king of Winter, slaying Danaerys the Dragonlord is a whole new ball-game from the mummers'version.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that both may come true, but while GRRM may have been compelled to tell the mummers how it ultimately ends, he obviously hasn't told them how it comes about and why.

As I've pointed out before Bran becoming king is very consistent with the Mabinogion, but the head of Bran Bendigeidfran watching over the kingdom from a cave under a white hill is altogether different from what was served up by the mummers and likewise Jon, as king of Winter, slaying Danaerys the Dragonlord is a whole new ball-game from the mummers'version.

Do you really believe the show ending will be the book ending? George has always said he looked to JRRT's "bittersweet" ending as his model. The show's ending is just simple crap. Nothing to do with the characters Martin has given us. I don't think we have anything like a happily ever after tale in the offing, but the ending will be tied to the story we have read already. Not some tragedy for the sake of unexplainable twists at the end.

Now, it is always possible Martin won't finish his books - but like most fans I'm hoping he lives a very long life and does finish - and if he does finish, I expect almost anything but the show's ending to his story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...