Jump to content

Heresy 234 and the coming of Winter


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

19 minutes ago, corbon said:

 

This monster may have been a dragon. Probably not, but I don't think its n entirely fair statement to say that that he is never recorded as a dragonslayer. He is recorded as a beast slayer, a beast that burst into flame.
I wonder what would happen if the internal combustion mechanism in a dragon's belly had a (special) sword thrust through it?  

 

I like how GRRM is trolling us about heroes. When Harghaz stabs Drogon with his spear, Drogon bursts into flames (on the spearman face). Moments later Dany removes the spear from Drogon's back and the spear is shining hot (like Lighbringer). Harghaz really needs to be reborn after his heroic actions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, corbon said:

 

This monster may have been a dragon. Probably not, but I don't think its n entirely fair statement to say that that he is never recorded as a dragonslayer. He is recorded as a beast slayer, a beast that burst into flame.
I wonder what would happen if the internal combustion mechanism in a dragon's belly had a (special) sword thrust through it?  

 

You mean like something very cold being thrust into something very hot :devil:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Yes. That is a good point. Daenerys successfully hatched dragons so that must be a prerequisite for fulfilling the prince that was promised prophecy. The thing about this prophecy is that I'm not sure its all that old. It seems like the woods witch that was with Jenny of Oldstones is the one that came up with it. Azor Ahai, on the other hand, might be older, but its hard to tell. Only two people talk about him: Melisandre and Salladhor Saan.

Ah but remember that there are two prophecies. There's the original ancient one told by Mel and Salladhor San which speaks of Azor Ahai.

Then there is the Dreamer predicting that the hero prophesied in the first one  will be a Targaryen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Ah but remember that there are two prophecies. There's the original ancient one told by Mel and Salladhor San which speaks of Azor Ahai.

Then there is the Dreamer predicting that the hero prophesied in the first one  will be a Targaryen

It also speaks of Nissa Nissa who is equally important in the prophesy.  They both have a role to play in forging the sword.  I'm starting to think that the dreamer's prophesy refers to Nissa Nissa and she is the mother of dragons.  The AA prophesy to the male counterpart and this is the reason the prophecies seem to conflate.  

When Martin says we have to look carefully at the weasel words, I think we can include the House of Undying prophesies.  They only address her as bride if fire and mother of dragons.

If the comet appeared for AA; then it also appeared for Nissa Nissa at the same time.  It is just that she takes a back seat to the dominant hero story. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, corbon said:

I think we can be fairly confident that Aemon knows the exact wording and/or context of the PtwP prophecy, be it weasely words or no.

So here are a few things that seem to be relevant.
 

It seems that Aemon believes the PtwP is supposed to be directly connected to the war for the Dawn. He seems to expect that when the WftD happens, the PtwP should be involved.

The PtwP will be involved in the WftD. His (or her) birth (literal or metaphorical I guess) will involve smoke and salt. Plus a bleeding star.
And hatching dragons is proof somehow.

It is claar that Mel's AA and Aemon's PtwP is the same prophecy - aside from Mel using both terms (she could be just co-opting the PtwP prophecy in order to get Westerosi support for her AA), its clear that the requirements for both use the same features - born amidst soke and salt , heralded by a bleeding star/red comet, and waking dragons from stone/the dragons are the proof.

 

But Mel claims this prophecy is 5000 years old, not recent.
I don't see how one can be a recent woods witch prophecy and the other 5000 years old when they clearly have complete overlap in every detail that has been mentioned. 

I suspect that earlier generations that still had dragons didn't take too much notice of the waking dragons from stone part. But given Dany's dargons are 'the proof' to Aemon, and Mel talking about waking dragons from stone, I think that element is clearly an old one. 

 

I was looking for text to support the connection between the Prince that was Promised and the War for the Dawn, so thank you for confirming that. I still suspect that Melisandre is trying to combine two heroes. Yes, Azor Ahai was a beast slayer wielding a special sword, but the Prince that was Promised presumably uses dragons in the Battle for the Dawn. Doesn't this seem like a distinctive difference to you?

 

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'll just at this point remind everyone that Mel's dating for the story being written down out east coincides with Old Ghis getting worked over by the Valyrian dragons

Yes, this is the point I'm trying to make. Azor Ahai sounds like he was a hero that fought against a Valyrian dragon.

Pivoting to a pet theory of mine, to me it appears that history is repeating itself except in reverse. The order of migration to Westeros is clearly reversing.

The Targaryens, who were the last to arrive were the first to be defeated.

The Rhoynar which arrived and intermarried with the Dornish now have the Dornish coming to them. When the Rhoynar arrived they were led by Nymeria. This has been completely reversed. Arianne Martell represents the Dornish and she's on her way to negotiate a marriage alliance with Young Griff who arrived to Westeros via the Rhoyne. If history is being reversed he will refuse Arianne's offer.

When the Andals arrived they were lead by their extremist religious warriors with the seven pointed star carved into their foreheads. They fought with the First Men, but quickly made marriage alliances to assimilate. An Andal currently holds the throne - Tommen with his mother Cersei as regent, but his reign is threatened by the extremist Faith Militant who Cersei mistakenly paved the way for them to take control.

When the First Men arrived they warred with the Children of the Forest before signing the Pact. Its said the Pact remained through the Long Night and until the Andals came. The First Men finally joined the realm when Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon. There currently is no Targaryen to force the First Men to kneel, so I believe we are witnessing a renewal of First Men strength. We may not like the Boltons and Freys and wonder about the loyalties of the Manderlies, but they just might successfully defeat Stannis who is repeating King Sherrit's curse from his seat at the Nightfort except King Sherrit brought his curse down upon the Andals while Stannis IS an Andal.

There are multiple factions going on with the First Men, because we can count on Sansa in the Vale as an ascension. Her rise to power seems to imply that the Vale may have been an important turning point in the fate of the First Men long ago. Sansa seems poised to become the Queen in the North if Littlefinger's plans come to fruition. Littlefinger is a Queenmaker whether Sansa does him in or no.

Which brings me to what started this post - the threat from beyond the Wall - the second Long Night. IMO Jon Snow is repeating the 13th Lord Commander's rise to Nights King who was taken down in mutiny by his own men. Jon was stabbed by his own men, but rather than ending his life he'll rise as the Nights King and "ensorcel" the Watch. It will be his to command. He may use the white walkers and wights as his army. I dunno, it could go another way. The Nights King of old was found to be sacrificing to the Others so if history is reversing itself then Jon as Nights King may be the one to defeat the Others. If history is reversing itself then the Long Night should be prevented from occurring at all - no dragons required.

Lastly, I just don't see Daenerys coming to Westeros. I see her more as the origin of dragons - the Mother of Dragons - and a repeat of the dragon lords except she frees slaves. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but again I have formed this opinion based on history reversing itself. Apparently dragons conquering Westeros should not reoccur which is why we have the Greyjoys involved. They are repeating a storyline of the Blackfyres - the Targaryen bastards. The Blackfyre Rebellions were ultimately failures. I do realize that a reversal would be a successful Blackfyre Rebellion so if any dragons do come to Westeros they will be ridden by Greyjoys. Thus the dragonhorn. But they will fail, because this time Brandon Stark will be allowed to kill them with "weirwood arrows".

This has been my Ted Talk. Thank you for reading. :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Melifeather said:

And what's with the "weasel" wording?

I think we can include the various salt and smoke utterances in the weasel words. 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

Comets aren't the only bleeding stars in this story:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI

"—could be undone." She let that hang there, waiting for the High Sparrow to rise to the bait.

He did not disappoint her. "The Faith Militant reborn . . . that would be the answer to three hundred years of prayer, Your Grace. The Warrior would lift his shining sword again and cleanse this sinful realm of all its evil. If His Grace were to allow me to restore the ancient blessed orders of the Sword and Star, every godly man in the Seven Kingdoms would know him to be our true and rightful lord."

So I'm reminded of the lord who was prophesied to die at Windsor Castle but instead died beneath a pub sign depicting Windsor Castle.

Could it be that "the warrior" is reborn beneath the banner of the bleeding star?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

So I'm reminded of the lord who was prophesied to die at Windsor Castle but instead died beneath a pub sign depicting Windsor Castle.

Just to be pedantic, the story [which is in Shakespeare] doesn't mention specifically Windsor Castle, but simply a castle, so the poor guy religiously avoided all castles and instead thought he'd be safe enough fighting a battle at St. Albans, which has an Abbey but no castle - only to be hacked to death outside the Castle Inn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Just to be pedantic, the story [which is in Shakespeare] doesn't mention specifically Windsor Castle, but simply a castle, so the poor guy religiously avoided all castles and instead thought he'd be safe enough fighting a battle at St. Albans, which has an Abbey but no castle - only to be hacked to death outside the Castle Inn.

The only pub sign of distinction in the books is of King Torrhen Stark kneeling. I wonder if GRRM has any plans to play off that one ironically?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

The smoke and salt is one of the places where Mel gets it wrong in fastening on Stannis. We're told twice in as many pages that Dragonstone is a smoking island in the salt sea, ergo Stan is the man.

Rhaegar on the other hand knows about the smoke and salt but doesn't or didn't make that connection.

Its also notable how he [and Aemon] fastens on to the dragons. Mel looks to the sword. It rather reinforces my feeling the the sword/Lightbringer is not to be taken literally but is a metaphor for the dragon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

Rhaegar on the other hand knows about the smoke and salt but doesn't or didn't make that connection.

Aemon said that Rhaegar thought the smoke was of Summerhal burning and the salt came from the tears shed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'll just at this point remind everyone that Mel's dating for the story being written down out east coincides with Old Ghis getting worked over by the Valyrian dragons

And Aemon's dating of the prince that was promised prophecy also coincides with the Rhoynes getting worked over by Valyrin dragons, for what it's worth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, corbon said:

It seems that Aemon believes the PtwP is supposed to be directly connected to the war for the Dawn. He seems to expect that when the WftD happens, the PtwP should be involved.

I agree. I would also add that if Aemon believed it, it's a decent bet that Rhaegar believed it as well.  

16 hours ago, corbon said:

It is claar that Mel's AA and Aemon's PtwP is the same prophecy - aside from Mel using both terms (she could be just co-opting the PtwP prophecy in order to get Westerosi support for her AA), its clear that the requirements for both use the same features - born amidst soke and salt , heralded by a bleeding star/red comet, and waking dragons from stone/the dragons are the proof.

 

But Mel claims this prophecy is 5000 years old, not recent.
I don't see how one can be a recent woods witch prophecy and the other 5000 years old when they clearly have complete overlap in every detail that has been mentioned. 

I suspect that earlier generations that still had dragons didn't take too much notice of the waking dragons from stone part. But given Dany's dargons are 'the proof' to Aemon, and Mel talking about waking dragons from stone, I think that element is clearly an old one. 

I'm not sure it's exactly the same prophecy.  Do we have any indication that the "waking dragons from stone" was also a part of the prince that was promised prophecy?  

According to Aemon, they had been trying to figure out the prince that was promised prophecy for about a thousand years.  So while it may be recent in relation to the Azor Ahai prophecy I don't think it's been too recent.

Quote

"It was a prince that was promised not a princess. ...

What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise!  The error crept in from the translation.  Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame.  The language misled us all for a thousand years.  

ETA:  I don't believe that the prophecy originated from the wood's witch.  I think the prophecy predates her by quite a bit.  I think the wood's witch was the one who narrowed down the prince (princess?) as being from the line of Aerys and Rahella (or perhaps the line of Jaehaerys and Shaera).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not sure it's exactly the same prophecy.  Do we have any indication that the "waking dragons from stone" was also a part of the prince that was promised prophecy?  

I've always understood the word "waking" to be interpreted as "hatching" the eggs which have been described as being hard as stones.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

Magister Illyrio murmured a command, and four burly slaves hurried forward, bearing between them a great cedar chest bound in bronze. When she opened it, she found piles of the finest velvets and damasks the Free Cities could produce … and resting on top, nestled in the soft cloth, three huge eggs. Dany gasped. They were the most beautiful things she had ever seen, each different than the others, patterned in such rich colors that at first she thought they were crusted with jewels, and so large it took both of her hands to hold one. She lifted it delicately, expecting that it would be made of some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass, but it was much heavier than that, as if it were all of solid stone. The surface of the shell was covered with tiny scales, and as she turned the egg between her fingers, they shimmered like polished metal in the light of the setting sun. One egg was a deep green, with burnished bronze flecks that came and went depending on how Dany turned it. Another was pale cream streaked with gold. The last was black, as black as a midnight sea, yet alive with scarlet ripples and swirls. "What are they?" she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

"Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty."

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Dany gave the silver over to the slaves for grooming and entered her tent. It was cool and dim beneath the silk. As she let the door flap close behind her, Dany saw a finger of dusty red light reach out to touch her dragon's eggs across the tent. For an instant a thousand droplets of scarlet flame swam before her eyes. She blinked, and they were gone.

Stone, she told herself. They are only stone, even Illyrio said so, the dragons are all dead. She put her palm against the black egg, fingers spread gently across the curve of the shell. The stone was warm. Almost hot. "The sun," Dany whispered. "The sun warmed them as they rode."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Aemon said that Rhaegar thought the smoke was of Summerhal burning and the salt came from the tears shed.

Indeed, so why go to Summerhall in the first place rather than to the Targaryens' smoking island in the salt sea ?

If they have been puzzling over the prophecy for 1,000 years, was that why they fetched up on Dragonstone in the first place ?

Something which may be relevant here and to the coincidences [?] anent the Azor Ahai stories and the Valyrians conquering the world, is that when Volantis tried to re-establish the empire after the Doom, the Targaryens joined in the fight against them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

the Targaryens joined in the fight against them.

The Targaryens joined the war during Aegon's rule of Dragonstone. We have no recorded instances of them fighting in the Century of Blood until Aegon I. At least, so far as I know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Indeed, so why go to Summerhall in the first place rather than to the Targaryens' smoking island in the salt sea ?

If they have been puzzling over the prophecy for 1,000 years, was that why they fetched up on Dragonstone in the first place ?

Something which may be relevant here and to the coincidences [?] anent the Azor Ahai stories and the Valyrians conquering the world, is that when Volantis tried to re-establish the empire after the Doom, the Targaryens joined in the fight against them.

Did they fight against them? I thought they moved to Dragonstone, because Daenys the Dreamer saw the destruction of Valyria by fire?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I've always understood the word "waking" to be interpreted as "hatching" the eggs which have been described as being hard as stones.

To me waking the dragon (and waking the old powers) and hatching eggs are two different thing but perhaps connected.  Viserys threatens Dany with "you don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"; time and again, meaning don't provoke me or violence will follow.  

Dany's wake the dragon dream gives it another meaning.  This is where she is joined to the soul of fire and becomes the bride of fire, and then the mother of dragons.  This has something to do with changing the soul. 

Wake the dragon seems to be similar to winter is coming.  They know the words but not the meaning.  At Summerhall, they were trying to hatch dragon eggs with wildfire, but they didn't have someone like Dany who had transformed into the b ride of fire and mother of dragons.  They didn't have  someone who was chosen for that purpose. 

Which makes me wonder why the wood's witch, presumably the Ghost of High Heart would have gone along with the events at Summerhall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

To me waking the dragon (and waking the old powers) and hatching eggs are two different thing but perhaps connected.  Viserys threatens Dany with "you don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"; time and again, meaning don't provoke me or violence will follow.  

Dany's wake the dragon dream gives it another meaning.  This is where she is joined to the soul of fire and becomes the bride of fire, and then the mother of dragons.  This has something to do with changing the soul. 

Wake the dragon seems to be similar to winter is coming.  They know the words but not the meaning.  At Summerhall, they were trying to hatch dragon eggs with wildfire, but they didn't have someone like Dany who had transformed into the b ride of fire and mother of dragons.  They didn't have  someone who was chosen for that purpose. 

Which makes me wonder why the wood's witch, presumably the Ghost of High Heart would have gone along with the events at Summerhall.

I agree with what you've said, but I was specifically referring to waking dragons from stone (eggs).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...