Heresy 234 and the coming of Winter

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, alienarea said:

The mad queen Cersei Lannister still rules King's Landing.

LOL! It is disheartening that he has loaded up his plate for the year with anything but WoW.  He is more excited by all this other stuff.  You can't begrudge him for seizing the day at his age and returning to things that he loves.  And maybe he needs this kind of renewal to return to writing.  He has a right to live his life the way he wants to, to pursue other interests, to make the most of his life.  I have learned not to place expectations on the arrival of the next book.  

[Black Crow]

On 3/24/2021 at 5:47 PM, Matthew. said:

On the other hand, in ASOS Quaithe appears to Dany directly following a dream where Dany is on dragon back, fighting the Usurper's army--but they're all armored in ice, which seems more suggestive of her wanting Dany to go to Westeros.

At a minimum, I think this reads as Quaithe encouraging Dany to stop wasting time trying to solve the problems of Meereen, and instead go forth and conquer--though whether she wants her to conquer men or the Army of Ice is unclear.
 

I think Danaerys' own interpretation of her dream is [understandably] too literal. To her the enemy is the usurper who has her throne.

In "reality" her enemy is Ice

[LynnS]

The Originals tv series uses the red door trope.  The beast beyond the red door.  I wonder if Martin is using the red door as a portal to the beast.

The Originals 4x10 Hayley goes through the Red Door & Finds Elijah - YouTube

Fed to the Beast - TV Tropes

[LynnS]

A random thought about what Mirri Maaz Duur said to Dany:  "when mountains blow in the wind like leaves." Can we substitute one like dragons for mountains: when dragons blow in the wind like leaves?  Going with Martin's use of the word mountain to describe Gregor Clegane, it makes sense to me that dragons are also mountains that could blow in the wind.

Then we have Dany returning to Vaes Dothrak, the Mother of Mountains.  I'm beginning to suspect that what lies beneath the mountain is an active volcano, a place where dragon eggs could brood.    Dany could be not only the mother of dragons, but the mother of mountains.

[Tucu]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

A random thought about what Mirri Maaz Duur said to Dany:  "when mountains blow in the wind like leaves." Can we substitute one like dragons for mountains: when dragons blow in the wind like leaves?  Going with Martin's use of the word mountain to describe Gregor Clegane, it makes sense to me that dragons are also mountains that could blow in the wind.

Then we have Dany returning to Vaes Dothrak, the Mother of Mountains.  I'm beginning to suspect that what lies beneath the mountain is an active volcano, a place where dragon eggs could brood.    Dany could be not only the mother of dragons, but the mother of mountains.

"mountains blow in the wind" always reminds me of the 1980 Mount St. Helen eruption. The interaction of ice and fire that was part of the devastation makes an interesting read:

https://www.usgs.gov/volcanoes/mount-st-helens/1980-cataclysmic-eruption

We also have the 2010 eruption in Iceland that caused air-travel disruption in Europe for several weeks. That eruption was also made worse by the interaction of ice and fire:

Quote

This volcanic activity so disruptive to air travel because of a combination of factors:

1. The volcano is directly under the jet stream.
2. The direction of the jet stream was unusually stable at the time of the eruption's second phase, continuously southeast.
3. The second eruptive phase happened under 200 m (660 ft) of glacial ice. The resulting meltwater flowed back into the erupting volcano, which created two specific phenomena:
   1. The rapidly vaporising water significantly increased the eruption's explosive power.
   2. The erupting lava cooled very fast, which created a cloud of highly abrasive, glass-rich ash.
4. The volcano's explosive power was enough to inject ash directly into the jet stream.

If Jon Snow is both Ice and Fire he could be more dangerous than Fire Dany and Ice Bran.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

"mountains blow in the wind" always reminds me of the 1980 Mount St. Helen eruption. The interaction of ice and fire that was part of the devastation makes an interesting read:

Sure, mountains blowing ejecta into the wind like leaves.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

I'm still expecting Dany to undergo some mystical rites when she reaches Vaes Dothrak and is handed over to the crones.  And perhaps some kind of vision when she touches the light. 

The business of the sun running on a backwards course could mean seeing past events having to do with the Doom of Valyria.

Mountains blowing in the wind:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

"Some smaller than others." Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted.

 

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Sure, mountains blowing ejecta into the wind like leaves.

I'm still expecting Dany to undergo some mystical rites when she reaches Vaes Dothrak and is handed over to the crones.  And perhaps some kind of vision when she touches the light. 

The business of the sun running on a backwards course could mean seeing past events having to do with the Doom of Valyria.

Mountains blowing in the wind:

 

Just before that scene Tyrion discussing the "sun" rising from the wrong direction:

Quote

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. “What hour is this?” he asked Moqorro. “That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?”

“The sky is always red above Valyria, Hugor Hill.”

 

[Black Crow]

There are a couple of issues arising here. 

First I agree with the suggestion that mountains blowing in the wind translates as a volcanic eruption or eruptions. That immediately calls the Doom to mind.

So far as Danaerys the Dragonlord is concerned, I think that we see here an evolution of the early synopsis. As you'll recall in that outline GRRM described herself and her Dothraki horde coming west to conquer Westeros, but no sooner does she start to warm her bum on the iron throne than she needs to face off against the horror from the north.

Turning to the Mummers Farce, Danaerys the Dragonlord does arrive in Westeros but quickly gets randomly offed by an undead Jon Stark, while the wholly imaginary "Night's King" is more or less accidentally done in by Arya Stark - along with Winter itself, and Bran Stark then became an unexplained High King of a green and pleasant land.

I think that we're moving along a different road to the ending than that set out in the synopsis. GRRM may of course had this different ending in mind all along, but I'm pretty sure that ending doesn't revolve around Jon being the rightful king of Westeros

On the one hand Danaerys might not make it west, but instead has to go east to the Fire [GRRM did speak in that synopsis of characters going to the Heart of Winter and to the Heart of Fire], while Jon is of the North and may in fact be the King of Winter/Night's King. The synopsis did say that the Wolf and the Lion must join together, but this may not be a buddy movie. It may be that Tyrion Lannister needs to slay Danaerys while Arya puts down Jon - and Bran, having orchestrated if not manipulated the whole thing becomes High King.

 

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think therefore that we're moving along a different road to the ending than that set out in the synopsis.

I agree.  I don't think that basic sketch will survive 20 years of the organic process except for the most basic structure of starting at the Shire and ending in the Shire.  The survival of the wolves is still up for interpretation.  The show and the author parted ways early in the process and that gap widened as the series went on.   The showrunners were serving the show and an audience unfamiliar with the books.  Martin thought they would get ten seasons out of the material he had already produced.  HBO and the showrunners wanted their venture to come to an end a lot sooner.   As far as knowing the ending and fates of certain characters;  I don't think much of what George had in mind fit with what the showrunners wanted to produce.   In this regard, the show and book will map out only in the broadest terms.  That Jon will kill Dany seems likely to me but that ending will not look like anything the show produced.  

After three days of discussion at Santa Fe, Bryan Cogman was blown away.  I think that's a good indication that readers will be blown away as well.  They cut out so much stuff that was important to George because it didn't serve the needs of the show.  It's a bit of a surprise that Rckon has an important part to play and I doubt it has anything to do with the Battle of the Bastards.  Same with Lady Stoneheart.  

There is also this from Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon:

BRYAN COGMAN:  The direwolves were supposed to mean more than they ended up meaning.  A lot of plans for the direwolves ended up not coming to fruition.  Even in the first season, there were a lot of direwolf scenes we had to cut even though we were just using dogs because the dogs couldn't execute the scenes; it would just take too long.

That aside, I think the direwolves represent the spirit of the North and the soul of House Stark and the soul of those characters.  Its not accident that Lady was killed and Sansa was left on her own, and it was no accident that Grey Wind was put in a cage, and it was no accident Nymeria found her independence and went her own way.  But we never really wanted to lean too heavily into the spirit-animal trope at all.  And certainly in the books, the direwolves function in a different way.  Arya and Jon are wargs in the books, and Sansa and Robb would have been except their wolves died . . .  I don't know that for a fact, but I assume so. 

And this about Lady Stoneheart:

DAVID BENIOFF:  We can't go into detail.  Part of the reason we didn't want to put it in had to do with things coming up in George's books that we don't want to spoil [by discussing them].  Part of it too was that we Jon Snow's resurrection coming up.  Too many resurrections start to diminish the impact of characters' dying.  We wanted to keep our powder dry for that.  And Catelyn's last moment was so fantastic, and Michelle is such a great actress, to bringing her back as a zombie who doesn't speak felt like diminishing returns.

 

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

On the one hand Danaerys might not make it west, but instead has to go east to the Fire [GRRM did speak in that synopsis of characters going to the Heart of Winter and to the Heart of Fire], while Jon is of the North and may in fact be the King of Winter/Night's King. The synopsis did say that the Wolf and the Lion must join together, but this may not be a buddy movie. It may be that Tyrion Lannister needs to slay Danaerys while Arya puts down Jon - and Bran, having orchestrated if not manipulated the whole thing becomes High King.

I can only make guesses here but I suspect the heart of fire is the Smoking Sea [a place of salt and smoke] and the ring of fire around it is the firey hinge of the world.

I'm also guessing that Brienne will intervene on Jaime's behalf and he will be sent to the Wall.  To me this is the lion joining with the wolf.  I can also see the lion joining with the wolf if Tyrion links up with Sansa at some point. 

I can see Jon ending Dany and Arya ending Jon in the very end with the return of spring.

I don't see Bran on the Iron Throne or ever leaving the Cave of Skulls.  I do see Theon becoming Bran's prophet.

Ultimately I think Littlefinger is positioning Sansa for the Iron Throne but he won't survive and it will be Tyrion who orchestrates who sits the throne. 

To me the ending of the Song of Ice and Fire goes to a marriage between ice and fire,  joining the land and that makes Aegon and Sansa the last king and queen standing for the bittersweet ending.  Martin's version of Aragorn and Arwen.  Aragorn and Aegon are so close, just remove some r's.

[Black Crow]

56 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I can only make guesses here but I suspect the heart of fire is the Smoking Sea [a place of salt and smoke] and the ring of fire around it is the firey hinge of the world.

I'm also guessing that Brienne will intervene on Jaime's behalf and he will be sent to the Wall.  To me this is the lion joining with the wolf.  I can also see the lion joining with the wolf if Tyrion links up with Sansa at some point. 

I can see Jon ending Dany and Arya ending Jon in the very end with the return of spring.

I don't see Bran on the Iron Throne or ever leaving the Cave of Skulls.  I do see Theon becoming Bran's prophet.

Ultimately I think Littlefinger is positioning Sansa for the Iron Throne but he won't survive and it will be Tyrion who orchestrates who sits the throne. 

To me the ending of the Song of Ice and Fire goes to a marriage between ice and fire,  joining the land and that makes Aegon and Sansa the last king and queen standing for the bittersweet ending.  Martin's version of Aragorn and Arwen.  Aragorn and Aegon are so close, just remove some r's.

The Smoking Sea is a good call on the Heart of Fire, and it also avoids a tedious detour out east. Perhaps Aegon is substituting for Danaerys' invasion.

I still think though that Tyrion is more likely than Jaime to be the Lion, after all he's out there with the Dragonlord already. As I said, I don't think that the Wolf and the Lion necessarily need to Hunt together side by side like a buddy movie and in any case I have a suspicion that the trip into the Heart of Winter isn't a trek over the ice and snow, but was Bran's journey up the river and into the Heart of Darkness.

This isn't, as we discussed earlier, about the Game of Thrones and certainly not the Iron Throne. Of course Bran sitting on the Iron Throne in the end makes absolutely no sense, but Bran Bendigeidfran watching over Westeros from his cave does

[LynnS]

Also, I am enjoying James Hibberds book.  It's an interesting read for someone like me who likes to watch dvd commentaries.  Every time I think of Dany's horse ruining the the marriage night scene, I crack up.  I think it was worth the money I spent.

[Matthew.]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

[GRRM did speak in that synopsis of characters going to the Heart of Winter and to the Heart of Fire],

The stuff about the Hearts of Ice and Fire came from an Amazon TWOW synopsis around 2006, and should be taken with a grain of salt. People who have been part of the long wait for books since ASOS might recall that, around 2002/2003, there was also a fake synopsis on Amazon for AFFC, which GRRM actually addressed:

https://grrm.livejournal.com/330542.html?thread=18064430#t18064430

Quote

I have nothing to do with those plot synopses on Amazon and like places. Have no idea who makes this stuff up, or what they base it on.

 

[Melifeather]

Just because GRRM shared end games for each character doesn't necessarily mean that D&D went with the same endings. What if they did the complete opposite or something completely different just because it suited their storytelling? I thought the show seemed like it was pulling ideas from online forum theories and played to the fans. I'm hoping to be surprised and delighted when the new material is finally published.

[LynnS]

Here is something curious from Melisandre that reminds me of Quaithe:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos VI

Davos looked down from an arched window in the gallery above. He watched Melisandre lift her arms, as if to embrace the shivering flames. "R'hllor," she sang in a voice loud and clear, "you are the light in our eyes, the fire in our hearts, the heat in our loins. Yours is the sun that warms our days, yours the stars that guard us in the dark of night."

I'm also reminded of Dany's placement of the dragon eggs in Drogo's funeral pyre: the head (eyes); beside his heart and next to his genitals (loin).

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

"They were not given to me to sell," Dany told him.

She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-and-stars. The black beside his heart, under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs. When she kissed him for the last time, Dany could taste the sweetness of the oil on his lips.

So there is something in Dany's ritual here that is mirrored in Melisandre's ritual.

I wonder what else applies to Dany from the Red religion.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos III

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.

 

[corbon]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

I can only make guesses here but I suspect the heart of fire is the Smoking Sea [a place of salt and smoke] and the ring of fire around it is the firey hinge of the world.

Apologies to anyone who's brought this up before, but I don't recall seeing this idea before. Its really clever and interesting, even though I personally won't take it any further at this stage, with my literal bent.

[alienarea]

On 3/30/2021 at 10:33 PM, Tucu said:

"mountains blow in the wind" always reminds me of the 1980 Mount St. Helen eruption. The interaction of ice and fire that was part of the devastation makes an interesting read:

https://www.usgs.gov/volcanoes/mount-st-helens/1980-cataclysmic-eruption

We also have the 2010 eruption in Iceland that caused air-travel disruption in Europe for several weeks. That eruption was also made worse by the interaction of ice and fire:

If Jon Snow is both Ice and Fire he could be more dangerous than Fire Dany and Ice Bran.

Ice Bran sounds like a frosted cereal.

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, corbon said:

Apologies to anyone who's brought this up before, but I don't recall seeing this idea before. Its really clever and interesting, even though I personally won't take it any further at this stage, with my literal bent.

I suppose the question is what is the heart of fire or heart of winter or the souls of ice and fire.  The Smoking Sea and the volcanos around it are a source of magic.  So perhaps it is a hinge of the world like the Wall.  Melisandre invokes the fiery heart quite often along with transformation of the heart into fire.  So I'm guessing that the fiery heart really refers to an individual or something with god-like powers that draws it's power from a magical well spring..  It's murky to be sure. 

I think we should look at Melisandre and what she says for some insight.  For example, when she says that fire is the cleanest form of death; burning people to please R'hllor isn't really what she is implying.  If you look at Dany's transformation, on another level it's about the soul.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

When Bran goes north and north and north and looks into the heart of winter - we are given a location, perhaps a wellspring of power, not unlike the Smoking Sea.  Hearts and souls belong to people, so what is Bran delving into when he is given terrible knowledge?  Who's soul, who's heart?

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

That certainly accords both with Mel's beliefs and those of Master Benero. I think that Danaerys' dream is an inward articulation of what they preach.

Conversely, its not unlike Varamyr's experience as his soul is cut free from his body and I'll be interested to see what happens when we next meet Jon.

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That certainly accords both with Mel's beliefs and those of Master Benero. I think that Danaerys' dream is an inward articulation of what they preach.

Possibly, Potentially this is knowledge she is given by the whispering stars including the construction of Drogo's pyre, the sacrifice of a godswife, holy blood..  It's curious that Mel invokes the stars as protectors who watch over them.  Tentatively, Quaithe and others like her. Does Quaithe belong to another sect or offshoot of the Red religion?

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries...yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world).

In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.