Heresy 234 and the coming of Winter

[Tucu]

6 hours ago, alienarea said:

Ice Bran sounds like a frosted cereal.

Bran is tree food now, does it count as cannibalism?

[Black Crow]

On 4/1/2021 at 1:47 PM, Tucu said:

Bran is tree food now, does it count as cannibalism?

Possibly , but if I were Bran I'd be rather more wary of Fire than Ice

[Black Crow]

On 4/1/2021 at 1:34 PM, LynnS said:

Possibly, Potentially this is knowledge she is given by the whispering stars including the construction of Drogo's pyre, the sacrifice of a godswife, holy blood..  It's curious that Mel invokes the stars as protectors who watch over them.  Tentatively, Quaithe and others like her. Does Quaithe belong to another sect or offshoot of the Red religion?

 

Well its all about light. What may be significant is that while Bran can see in the dark and enjoys its protection, the other lot look to flood everything with light even if this requires creating that light using an all destroying Fire.

If we shift to our own world and our own time, I've spoken before about the significance of GRRM growing up during the Cold War, and the significance of starting the Song of Ice and Fire within months of the destruction of our Wall.

Its common to speak of the then and ongoing conflicts as a war in the shadows, endless perhaps, but better than ending it in the Fire of the Mutually Assured Destruction sought by the Red lot.

[Tucu]

44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Possibly , but if I were Bran I'd be rather more wary of Fire than Ice

Time for a meta-experiment: Put some Bran flakes in the freezer and observe the results; then put them in the fire and observe the results

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Well its all about light. What may be significant is that while Bran can see in the dark and enjoys its protection, the other lot look to flood everything with light even if this requires creating that light using an all destroying Fire.

If we shift to our own world and our own time, I've spoken before about the significance of GRRM growing up during the Cold War, and the significance of starting the Song of Ice and Fire within months of the destruction of our Wall.

Its common to speak of the then and ongoing conflicts as a war in the shadows, endless perhaps, but better than ending it in the Fire of the Mutually Assured Destruction sought by the Red lot.

Yes, that is the end game for the Red Lot as we understand it now.  Dany's dilemma is tied to the trope of the red door.  Open it and enter to be devoured by the beast within or open it and let the beast out. 

I go back to Martin's statement that fire is love and light and life in contrast to ice which is hate and dark and death.  These are the ways in which the soul is changed for transformed.  Dany has to touch the light for the wisdom she needs to overcome the Red Lot's agenda. Bran also needs wisdom to use his gifts.  

Ultimately this is about Dany using light and love to cleanse the soul of ice of hatred and death.  But rather than setting the world on fire, this would be a confrontation between Dany and Jon, the souls of ice and fire and I think it will end up in mutual destruction to both of them and to the hinges of the world.  The wellspring of magic have to go, to return to balance.

[LynnS]

If you could use a laugh -- Team Balmert:

WAXING NOSE HAIR GONE WRONG! *OUCH* - YouTube

[Black Crow]

On 4/3/2021 at 3:00 PM, LynnS said:

Yes, that is the end game for the Red Lot as we understand it now.  Dany's dilemma is tied to the trope of the red door.  Open it and enter to be devoured by the beast within or open it and let the beast out. 

I go back to Martin's statement that fire is love and light and life in contrast to ice which is hate and dark and death.  These are the ways in which the soul is changed for transformed.  Dany has to touch the light for the wisdom she needs to overcome the Red Lot's agenda. Bran also needs wisdom to use his gifts.  

Ultimately this is about Dany using light and love to cleanse the soul of ice of hatred and death.  But rather than setting the world on fire, this would be a confrontation between Dany and Jon, the souls of ice and fire and I think it will end up in mutual destruction to both of them and to the hinges of the world.  The wellspring of magic have to go, to return to balance.

Another way of looking at it is to seek a way to step back from the brink. How to bring light to the world without fire and destruction. To claim that Jon represents both Ice and Fire [assuming R+L=J] is too trite. What is he actually to do? Its not enough to be. As the story is written and revealed so far Jon is Ice and perhaps to become or stand in for the Night's King, a union or a battle between Jon and Danaerys the Dragonlord is too trite on the one hand and too destructive on the other. Rather the answer as in our world and in GRRM's is to destroy the Wall.

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Another way of looking at it is to seek a way to step back from the brink. How to bring light to the world without fire and destruction. To claim that Jon represents both Ice and Fire [assuming R+L=J] is too trite. What is he actually to do? Its not enough to be. As the story is written and revealed so far Jon is Ice and perhaps to become or stand in for the Night's King, a union or a battle between Jon and Danaerys the Dragonlord is too trite on the one hand and too destructive on the other. Rather the answer as in our world and in GRRM's is to destroy the Wall.

I think the Wall has to go in the end.  I think it connects ice magic to the WW. the wights and eventually to Jon.  Whether it's catastrophic in the physical world or not is the question.  Perhaps it's just the magic of the Wall that has to fall.  We have assumed that from an engineering standpoint, the Wall couldn't possibly stand on it's own without magic.  We have the example of the Doom and the Fourteen Flames.  I'm convinced that the cauldera of Smoking Sea is the Hinge of Fire and source of fire magic. Potentially the birthplace of the original Azhor Ahai.  

I think there is a focal point to that magic in the soul of ice.  There are a lot of hints about what has to happen.  Jojen's statement about ice burning, love and hate mating, the land becoming one is the most obscure.  The joining of the heart and soul is a part of the standard marriage ceremony.

I think this has to happen literally with Jon and Dany by some means.  Hatred, dark and death have to be cleansed with love, light and life. This is a theme that shows up in Melisandre's burnt offerings.  An act that has a cascading effect to the vectors attached to a focal point. 

I think the red door dilemma for Dany is about becoming the beast within and/or releasing the beast to wreak havoc where she is feared by all.  She has to become the crone who holds the lantern in the darkness rather than the beast.

Physically, I still think the Big House with the red door is a temple of R'hllor and the Red Lot worship a dragon god, a dragon with a soul.  Fire made flesh whereas the cold gods, the WWs are ice made flesh.

 

 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Another way of looking at it is to seek a way to step back from the brink. How to bring light to the world without fire and destruction. To claim that Jon represents both Ice and Fire [assuming R+L=J] is too trite. What is he actually to do? Its not enough to be. As the story is written and revealed so far Jon is Ice and perhaps to become or stand in for the Night's King, a union or a battle between Jon and Danaerys the Dragonlord is too trite on the one hand and too destructive on the other. Rather the answer as in our world and in GRRM's is to destroy the Wall.

I am starting to see ASOIAF not as the story of those who triumph over darkness, but as a saga of those who cause it. As an evolution of past discussions with @Melifeather about the wildlings being the Others, I am looking at the idea of our heroes and villains from magical bloodlines being a new generation of Others. They are the sleeping giants bound to stone and the exiled descendants of those who caused the previous Long Night. As Marwyn puts it:

Quote

Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes.

 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think the red door dilemma for Dany is about becoming the beast within and/or releasing the beast to wreak havoc where she is feared by all.  She has to become the crone who holds the lantern in the darkness rather than the beast

You have got me thinking about the Red Door symbolism now.  Despite the fact that GRRM has embraced atheism, he still seems fairly influenced by his Catholic upbringing.

In the Catholic Church the “red door” is a symbol of sanctuary and protection.  Church’s often painted their doors red for this reason.  It apparently dates back to the Old Testament and to the biblical story that became the Jewish Passover tradition.  

When God was about to let loose a plague on the Egyptians, the Jewish people painted their doors red with the blood of lambs to signify that their houses should be passed over from the plague.  

The lamb symbolism springs up quite a bit in ASOIAF and Dany’s story arc is no exception.  It was Dany’s adoption of the Lhazareen (aka Lamb Men), Mirri, that led Dany on the path which ultimately hatched her dragons.  And as part of Dany’s hatching ritual, she sacrificed a “lamb” in Mirri.  

As the story unfolds in Dany’s moment of need she is sheltered and protected by one of her dragons.  Which perhaps ties in to the Dragon and the Red Door symbolism if indeed the Red Door for Dany is a symbol of sanctuary and protection.

But my thought is that Dany’s ultimate fate may be as one of the “heads of the dragon”.  Which in my opinion, is more literal than most assume.  I think it may come about by the transfer of her consciousness into one of her dragons.  So for Dany perhaps entering into the protection of the Red Door is about the fulfillment of one of her initial dragon dreams.  Where fire scours her clean and wings rip from her back and she takes flight.  In other words, Dany shedding her human body and her consciousness becoming one with her dragon.  

(Interestingly enough, GRRM introduces a character called the “Red Lamb” in ADWD.  One of Barristan’s newly made knights.  Someone who is on hand when Barristan confronts Quentyn’s two companions after Quentyn is roasted by Rhaegal.  And yes I am of the opinion that Quentyn, the frog prince, may in fact be the actual Aegon and his death by fire may have initiated his consciousness into entering one of the dragons.  But that’s a theory for another day.)

As for Dany, if she is to survive an Apocalypse, specifically one of the Long Night/Winter variety, what better sanctuary than her consciousness being transferred into a being that makes its own flame?

However, this quote might give one pause to think that there could be any true sanctuary in a Long Night:

Quote

“I was looking for a house with a red door, but by night all the doors are black.”

 

[LynnS]

52 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You have got me thinking about the Red Door symbolism now.  Despite the fact that GRRM has embraced atheism, he still seems fairly influenced by his Catholic upbringing.

This is a fascinating interpretation of the red door as a place of sanctuary.  The transformation into a dragon is about bonding with the soul of fire, and I think ultimately a dragon will house her soul as well.  I think you are spot on with catholic symbolism!  Always very interesting to hear your point of view. 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

To claim that Jon represents both Ice and Fire [assuming R+L=J] is too trite.

I just don't know where the story goes if this is the case.  I think George has concocted a foma and the woman that Rhaegar fell in love with at the tourney was Ashera,  I just can't see Ned not taking steps to hide his own sister given the circumstances.  Who's the daddy? IDK. 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I just don't know where the story goes if this is the case.  I think George has concocted a foma and the woman that Rhaegar fell in love with at the tourney was Ashera,  I just can't see Ned not taking steps to hide his own sister given the circumstances.  Who's the daddy? IDK. 

I have come to accept that Jon is likely the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Not because that makes him an (ice) dragon, but a confluence of ancient powerful bloodlines. On his mother side he would be a Stark, a Blackwood and a Royce. On his father side he would be a Targ, a Nymeros Martell, a Dayne and a Blackwood (again). It is also a confluence of the blood from magical exiles: Targs, Nymeros, Blackwood and probably the Starks (via the Last Hero). He is a big magical melting pot.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

(Interestingly enough, GRRM introduces a character called the “Red Lamb” in ADWD.  One of Barristan’s newly made knights.  Someone who is on hand when Barristan confronts Quentyn’s two companions after Quentyn is roasted by Rhaegal.  And yes I am of the opinion that Quentyn, the frog prince, may in fact be the actual Aegon and his death by fire may have initiated his consciousness into entering one of the dragons.  But that’s a theory for another day.)

I'd like to hear this theory.

[Frey family reunion]

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'd like to hear this theory.

I’ll bypass the soap opera elements and get to the crux.  What if Rhaegar was right? That his son Aegon was slated to be the Prince that was Promised and one of the “heads of the dragon”?

And let us assume that Young Griff is in fact an imposter, someone with the right look but the wrong parentage.  Then the only one in our story that would probably fit the bill as a hidden Aegon age wise, and circumstance wise is Quentyn.  He’s also the only real character where GRRM repeatedly uses the title and imagery of a “Prince”.  He’s also a bit of Yin and Yang with the false Aegon, Young Griff.  Both of their stories basically began around Volantis with Young Griff going West and Quentyn going East.

So if true, then we have to return to Rhaegar’s original statements concerning Aegon and what it means to be the Prince that was Promised and one of the “heads of the dragon”.  How does Quentyn fit into the Song of Ice and Fire?

The most interesting (at least to me) part of Quentyn’s story arc, is his arc was the first time that GRRM actually acknowledges one of the folklore/myths that have influenced this series.  He wants the reader to know about the Frog/Prince tale:

Quote

Dany laughed.
The Dornish prince flushed red, whilst her own court and counselors gave her puzzled looks. “Radiance?” said Skahaz Shavepate, in the Ghiscari tongue. “Why do you laugh?”
“They call him frog,” she said, “and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children’s tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love.” Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. “Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?”
“No, Your Grace.”
“I feared as much.” Neither enchanted nor enchanting, alas. A pity he’s the prince, and not the one with the wide shoulders and the sandy hair. “You have come for a kiss, however.”

So GRRM wants to make sure the readers are aware of the tale.  The frog undergoes a transformation through a kiss. 

But as the tale goes one we learn why Quentyn truly came.  It really wasn’t primarily for Dany, it was for her dragons.  If so, then perhaps Quentyn did actually get his kiss from his true love after all, but not before GRRM once again reminds us of the Frog/Prince tale:

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Two eyes rose up before him.
Bronze, they were, brighter than polished shields, glowing with their own heat, burning behind a veil of smoke rising from the dragon’s nostrils. The light of Quentyn’s torch washed over scales of dark green, the green of moss in the deep woods at dusk, just before the last light fades. Then the dragon opened its mouth, and light and heat washed over them. Behind a fence of sharp black teeth he glimpsed the furnace glow, the shimmer of a sleeping fire a hundred times brighter than his torch. The dragon’s head was larger than a horse’s, and the neck stretched on and on, uncoiling like some great green serpent as the head rose, until those two glowing bronze eyes were staring down at him.
Green, the prince thought, his scales are green. “Rhaegal,” he said. His voice caught in his throat, and what came out was a broken croak. Frog, he thought, I am turning into Frog again.

And here is Quentyn’s kiss, a kiss of fire:

Quote

Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!”
Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.
When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.
Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

But interestingly enough, George doesn’t kill Quentyn off right away.  Instead he puts him on a death bed, being tended over by the little sage, Missendei:

Quote

Missandei sat at the bedside. She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him.

This kind of makes me think of Bran’s “death bed”.  When Bran hovered between life or death was the time that Bran’s third eye opened.  When Bran truly gained his telepathic powers.  

So what if Quentyn’s abilities opened up as well.  During that time when he hovered between life and death.  And perhaps Missandei was actually playing the Jojen role of adviser and mentor to Quentyn.  It would be interesting to know what Missandei was reading to Quentyn.

So perhaps this was the moment when Quentyn’s telepathic abilities awoke and he fulfilled his role as one of the “heads of a dragon”.  Rhaegal’s “kiss” transforms Quentyn into a dragon.  Quentyn’s consciousness became untethered from his body and entered into one of the dragons to start his “second life”.  

Which would also give us guidance as to how Dany or whoever else is slated to play the role as one of the heads of the dragon would fulfill it.  Not as a dragon rider, nothing so mundane.  But instead after a kiss of fire, their consciousness transfers into one of the dragons.

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’ll bypass the soap opera elements and get to the crux.  What if Rhaegar was right? That his son Aegon was slated to be the Prince that was Promised and one of the “heads of the dragon”?

 

Oh, I like this 

[alienarea]

"I see a red door and I want to paint it black."

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But instead after a kiss of fire, their consciousness transfers into one of the dragons.

I can go with it.  It makes sense to me that Rhaegar would take steps to hide Aegon and change his identity.  This is after all what Cersei proposes for Thommen.  Sending him to Doran Martell also makes sense.  This would be one of Martin's magicians tricks. While everyone's attention is on one hand, we don't notice what he did with the other hand.  It also give's some meaning to Martin's statement that Quentyn is important to the story and not just for releasing the dragons.

I will laugh my head off if Victarion arrives with Dragonbinder and the dragons are missing.

[Aetta]

On 2/22/2021 at 5:04 AM, Black Crow said:

...As I said, Bran the Blessed Crow as High King makes perfect sense in terms of the Mabinogion, but without that context the mummers version gets it spectacularly wrong

I do fancy the idea of Bran's head being brought to The Citadel to ward off the sun rising in the west forevermore.

[LongRider]

10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Rhaegal’s “kiss” transforms Quentyn into a dragon.  Quentyn’s consciousness became untethered from his body and entered into one of the dragons to start his “second life”.  

This is quite interesting, and does make some sense.  While dragons and direwolves are both magical creatures, direwolves are closer to the natural animals than the dragons are, I would argue. 
Regular animals are easily warged, direwolves are warged by Starks only (though Ghost once by Mel {maybe}) and so far dragons have not been warged, even by Dany.
A hierarchy of warging perhaps?