Heresy 234 and the coming of Winter

[divica]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Why it doesn't make sense? Grey and white are the Stark colours. The white sweeps in and the grey rise to meet them and they whirl around. After that it comes the cold wind and mist, darkness and death.

Because it is just a description from a battle scene from 2 groups that have no relation to the starks. This is a literal vision of something happening and not some analogy full of simbolism.

Simply because there is white and grey present doesn t relate it the starks...

[Tucu]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

Because it is just a description from a battle scene from 2 groups that have no relation to the starks. This is a literal vision of something happening and not some analogy full of simbolism.

Simply because there is white and grey present doesn t relate it the starks...

He, next you are going to tell me that Mel's "towers by the sea" vision is about Eastwatch

[divica]

37 minutes ago, Tucu said:

He, next you are going to tell me that Mel's "towers by the sea" vision is about Eastwatch

No. But I will tell you that her vision about the towers is about some place with towers being atacked by the sea.

And not something like ashara dayne raising from the depths to atack the tower from where se trew herself or some silly thing like that simply because we can relate towers and water to ashara's death...

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, divica said:

No. But I will tell you that her vision about the towers is about some place with towers being atacked by the sea.

And not something like ashara dayne raising from the depths to atack the tower from where se trew herself or some silly thing like that simply because we can relate towers and water to ashara's death...

Or maybe Euron's "dark tide" hitting the Hightowers...we will see. Compare it to Jojen's sea vision:

Quote

I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard

 

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Or maybe Euron's "dark tide" hitting the Hightowers...we will see. Compare it to Jojen's sea vision:

 

THAT is one analogy full of simbolisms. jojen isn t seeing an image of reality but a representation of reality. The problem with with mel's vision is that by the description she is seeing an image of reality. The others are atacking a wooden fence, it is snowing, the wildlings are firing burning arrows and the fence is catching fire and there are people hidden in caves. Everything here seems real instead of filled with simbols that represent other things.

In regards to the tower vision there is some theory it is a specific place near oldtown that has some towers. 

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, divica said:

THAT is one analogy full of simbolisms. jojen isn t seeing an image of reality but a representation of reality. The problem with with mel's vision is that by the description she is seeing an image of reality. The others are atacking a wooden fence, it is snowing, the wildlings are firing burning arrows and the fence is catching fire and there are people hidden in caves. Everything here seems real instead of filled with simbols that represent other things.

In regards to the tower vision there is some theory it is a specific place near oldtown that has some towers. 

So you think that this vision does not contain symbolism?

Quote

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

 

[divica]

52 minutes ago, Tucu said:

So you think that this vision does not contain symbolism?

 

Honestly, I am not sure.

She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood.

It is just the dead rangers that lost their eyes.

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths.

Can be just a kraken rising from the depths and atacking an area near towers.

Shadows in the shape of skulls

pretty useless.

skulls that turned to mist

probably the others.

bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

These are also pretty literal and I am curious to know who is important enough to appear in mel's visions having sex (my bet is faegon and arianne because it would make impossible for him to marry danny. that would lead to another dance of dragons).

So yeah, no simbolism...

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, divica said:

Honestly, I am not sure.

She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood.

It is just the dead rangers that lost their eyes.

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths.

Can be just a kraken rising from the depths and atacking an area near towers.

Shadows in the shape of skulls

pretty useless.

skulls that turned to mist

probably the others.

bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

These are also pretty literal and I am curious to know who is important enough to appear in mel's visions having sex (my bet is faegon and arianne because it would make impossible for him to marry danny. that would lead to another dance of dragons).

So yeah, no simbolism...

Well, even Mel thinks that there are hidden truths in her visions. These are her thoughts just after the towers and "Hardhome" visions:

Quote

It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R’hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

 

[divica]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

Well, even Mel thinks that there are hidden truths in her visions. These are her thoughts just after the towers and "Hardhome" visions:

 

But that doesn t mean that what she sees in her visions are representations of reality instead of glimpses of reality.

And the problem with her visions is that she has to know who appears in them, when and where. Like she says she saw stannis with a burning blade fighting a battle in the snows an imediatly thinks he is fighting the other. However it is most likely that he is fighting the freys. Or the vision of the girl in grey riding a dying horse...

As she says, it is an art to understand what she is seeing...

[Tucu]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

But that doesn t mean that what she sees in her visions are representations of reality instead of glimpses of reality.

And the problem with her visions is that she has to know who appears in them, when and where. Like she says she saw stannis with a burning blade fighting a battle in the snows an imediatly thinks he is fighting the other. However it is most likely that he is fighting the freys. Or the vision of the girl in grey riding a dying horse...

As she says, it is an art to understand what she is seeing...

And this one?:

Quote

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.

 

[divica]

Just now, Tucu said:

And this one?:

 

Again, it seems like a vision of reality.

the 3ec does have a lot of eyes that float and a white woden face (the crows and he has lived for decades in a cave fused with a tree).

And bran could have been inside summer. It makes sense that a magical vision might be able to see that and show it as something weird...

[Queen Allyria]

On 4/15/2021 at 8:11 PM, LynnS said:

Oh! That's going back a few years.  I don't have a lot of energy right now.  I have some of my own medical issues.  So, I will pass on the mystery blog for now.  You might find something interesting here though:

Time and Causality - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (westeros.org)

Sorry. Didnt mean to be mysterious. I thought you knew. Dy moved the Parentage essays to her own blog. Nobody ever claimed TLH's WordPress blog. They wanted everything back but nobody would take it. 

Anyways she said something about maybe trying to finish the Parentage project off right. Wolfmaid dedicated a lot of time and energy into it before her personal life took priority. Since she and we were all too busy trying to kill one another last time...(jk but not really) Maybe another shot is in order? 

[Queen Allyria]

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Seriously though, this is my biggest problem with R+L=J. It may well turn out to be so, but in Reader World its a massive distraction from the real issues of this story, which won't be resolved by Jon Snow; he isn't the messiah, just a very naughty boy. Sorting out the conflict between Ice and Fire is going to be much bigger and more complex than that.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but do you have these replies liked saved up somewhere? And if you do, can I delete anything that uses the term three fingered tree huggers? They aren't hugging anything. They're sucking it dry. They're freaking leaches. All the greenseers are. 

[Queen Allyria]

13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I had posted my thoughts about what the symbolism of the feather may have meant back in Heresy 216:

The feather was black and white, if I recall, and those colors could suggest a blending of ice and fire, however I don't see Robert as being someone that would have had that kind of insight, even if he believed Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

I also seem to recall some discussion on the possibility that it was from a guinea hen. The guinea hen was used in medieval times to symbolize a person with steadfast beliefs and a defender of their faith. If the show is trying to incorporate some of these faith elements - their motivations, and/or conspiracies with the Faith Militant etc, etc, then I could see the show attempting to identify the seven aspects of the Faith with Robert as ther Smith. Then the feather placement would be evidence to suggest that Robert believed he was a defender of his faith.

As for Mance...my opinions on him and the wildlings have not changed. I think the idea to recreate the white walkers and wights were his idea to manufacture a threat in order to get the Watch to believe that the wildlings were separate from the Others and allow them south of the Wall in order to save their lives. I've discarded my much earlier opinion that Mance was Jon's father. Ned is currently my favored father. I'm still wavering back and forth as to whether or not Mance is indeed in a cage, but I'm leaning towards him not being in the cage, because he's my favorite for being the true writer of the Pink Letter.

I am not familiar with the polo shirt.

Symbolically speaking I agree. But you forget... GRRM isn't the author of that particular plot point. In the book he doesn't leave a feather. I think we might need to stop thinking of show foreshadowing bearing the same depth and foresight as the books. We can't use the same standards of interpretation on each I don't think. 

 

ETA. Dave wore a polo or Tshirt with R+L=J on it in one of the early seasons after the episodes. It was before R+L=J was completely widespread, but most fans were getting there. The timing makes no sense for a Rhaegar reveal. 

[Queen Allyria]

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So far GRRM has been very consistent with Jon's story arc.  Jon has been torn between his duties with the Night's Watch and his secret desire for Winterfell.  Even after he resisted Stannis's temptation to make himself lord, we get a scene where Jon goes into a berserker rage when he recalls a time when Cat (through Robb) told him he could never be lord of Winterfell for being a bastard.  Clearly GRRM isn't done with this conflict.

Looking at it from a slightly different perspective... I wonder if Jon isn't a complete misdirect for several different archetypes. For example in reality Ramsey is the current Bastard of Winterfell. But he's double dipping and being Bael too. Sets up the conflict between he and Mance/Abel over (f)AryaJeyne

As for the other there's so much more irony layered in if Jon is in fact NaB () and at least a prince. Certain lines feel to prominent to not be either clues or misdirects. Kinda like how Walter Frey gave us a window into what really went down with Sweet Robyn/Robert.

Or I could go cometely left field and suggest wonder Bob is just Dad. Period. It there's a kid it's Bob's. I gotta say that some of these options start to run together after while. 

[alienarea]

I guess the point we are avoiding to discuss and dance around with complicated theories is that most of us fail to understand how GRRM could come up with an ending like presented in the tv show.

Bran is the first POV. It is not surprising he becomes king in the end.

When Daenerys had Mirri Maz Dur (spelling?) it was evident she would not survive the series. Hollywood mechanics.

Shireen getting burned was telegraphed by a mile.

I am not sure whether GRRM duped DnD, or they butchered it, or what went down. We can only specaluate as we were not there.

My current understanding is that GRRM told DnD the real end he had in mind at this point in time.

Then things got out of hand. The show caught up fast and GRRM did not proceed as planned. He might have realized that the ending he gave them wouldn't work, maybe that's what blocked him? Maybe he's contractually obliged not to tell a different story, but he finished the books with one and cannot publish? Time might tell.

In parallel, DnD hat to trim the story for tv, and some things couldn't be shown on tv. For me, the Sansa in Winterfell arc was hard to take as a deviation from the books, but made sense on tv for streamlining the story.

Another tv issue was the growing up of the actors in real life. The show had the choice of speeding things up or recasting some lead acctors. Mayb they took the wrong choice, but it was the honorable thing.

My two cents. Now back to olives :P

 

 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Queen Allyria said:

Sorry. Didnt mean to be mysterious. I thought you knew. Dy moved the Parentage essays to her own blog. Nobody ever claimed TLH's WordPress blog. They wanted everything back but nobody would take it. 

No, I don't know anything about the TLH WorldPress Blog.  I know the TLH Forum had a series of XYZ threads.  I wasn't around any of these forums when Wolfmaid was running that project.  Are you referring to a different blog by Lady Dyanna?

[divica]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Bran is the first POV. It is not surprising he becomes king in the end.

Come on, this isn t an argument...

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

My current understanding is that GRRM told DnD the real end he had in mind at this point in time.

Then things got out of hand. The show caught up fast and GRRM did not proceed as planned. He might have realized that the ending he gave them wouldn't work, maybe that's what blocked him? Maybe he's contractually obliged not to tell a different story, but he finished the books with one and cannot publish? Time might tell.

The problem with this is that until the end of season 7 we were going in one direction and then sudenly season 8 happened and the things in season 8 just don t fit with the rest of the story. This only works if D&D wanted to surprise and shock the audience or if they were somehow forced to have an ending simillar to the books. And both hipothesis seem possible.

On the other hand I don't want to believe for a second that grrm would sign a paper that wouldn't let him finish his story as he sees fit.

I think the real problem is that a lot of the things that happened in season 8 are probably pretty close to what grrm had/has planned and people didn t really liked it...

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, divica said:

Come on, this isn t an argument...

The problem with this is that until the end of season 7 we were going in one direction and then sudenly season 8 happened and the things in season 8 just don t fit with the rest of the story. This only works if D&D wanted to surprise and shock the audience or if they were somehow forced to have an ending simillar to the books. And both hipothesis seem possible.

On the other hand I don't want to believe for a second that grrm would sign a paper that wouldn't let him finish his story as he sees fit.

I think the real problem is that a lot of the things that happened in season 8 are probably pretty close to what grrm had/has planned and people didn t really liked it...

D&D stated that they knew what Martin had in store for Lady Stoneheart and very specifically didn't want to spoil the book;  I'm going to say that they didn't spoil any character arc or ending from the book.  They may have known where Martin was going but I think they came up with what would work for a tv audience without spoiling the books.  I don't think the books will look anything show in the end.

[Black Crow]

18 hours ago, divica said:

The problem isn t so much where the rage comes from but what he is capable to do once he is in that state. 

Either Jon can use some of ghost abilities when enraged or it is related to his targ side. And we do know that targs might have a berserker side that gives them improved physical abilities but we havent seen skinchangers siphoning strength from their animal companions. 

There's no need to draw on a remote [as in not physically joined] familiar in order to gain "improved physical abilities". Rage and adrenalin are enough for what's actually described in the books