Heresy 234 and the coming of Winter

[Queen Allyria]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And make sure you add: 

DnD:  "Now tell us about how Jon and Dany hook up."

GRRM: "Hook up?  Well they don't, in fact ... "

DnD:  "Let me stop you right there George, at least for our show, if you want to keep getting those HBO checks, yes they hook up.  Again and Again."

Ummmmm. If you EVER finish editing HLJ.... I think there's a blog that might be interested in publishing it for you. (Unless you already have it elsewhere.) Let me know. I can put you in touch...

@Melifeather Do you have any ideas for wtf Bobby B would put a feather on Lyanna's tomb going into a Rhaegar is the Daddy Reveal? Or why Dave would give away end game on a polo shirt? Still have any feeling on Mance? 

@LynnS Ditto for your work on the wall. 

[LynnS]

31 minutes ago, Queen Allyria said:

Oh c'mon. That's kinda impressive. ;P

It is impressive and a surprise.  The unexpected always make me laugh.  It lifted my spirits.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

 Cheer me up Feather.  My nephew's glioblastoma is back.  He's only in his 30's and he has an 11 year old boy.

I’m trying to post a funny Gary Larson cartoon but failing miserably. It’s a picture of two cows in a living room. The husband cow is sitting in a recliner and the wife cow is gazing out the window. She says, “Wendell...I am not content.”

[Queen Allyria]

22 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I’m trying to post a funny Gary Larson cartoon but failing miserably

Huh. Hope that's not a usual problem here at this website. That must be frustrating.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Queen Allyria said:

Ditto for your work on the wall. 

Oh! That's going back a few years.  I don't have a lot of energy right now.  I have some of my own medical issues.  So, I will pass on the mystery blog for now.  You might find something interesting here though:

Time and Causality - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (westeros.org)

[Tucu]

7 hours ago, Queen Allyria said:

Seriously... Can't you all find a different website for this conversation??? 

Come on!, growing food and surviving Winter are going to be central themes in TWOW and ADOS.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

Come on!, growing food and surviving Winter are going to be central themes in TWOW and ADOS.

Don't forget coffee. I used to drive my platoon commander nuts by brewing the real stuff in some very unlikely holes in the ground.

[Black Crow]

Seriously though, this is my biggest problem with R+L=J. It may well turn out to be so, but in Reader World its a massive distraction from the real issues of this story, which won't be resolved by Jon Snow; he isn't the messiah, just a very naughty boy. Sorting out the conflict between Ice and Fire is going to be much bigger and more complex than that.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Don't forget coffee. I used to drive my platoon commander nuts by brewing the real stuff in some very unlikely holes in the ground.

Quote

Blackadder: Now Baldrick, fix me some coffee, and make it taste slightly less like mud this time.
Baldrick: Not easy I'm afraid, Sir
Blackadder: And why is this?
Baldrick: 'cause it is mud. We ran out of coffee 13 months ago
Blackadder: Brilliant. So every time I've drunk your coffee for the past 13 months, I have in fact, been drinking, hot mud.
Baldrick: With sugar...
Blackadder: ...which makes all the difference
Baldrick: Well, it would if we had any sugar, but we ran out New Years Eve 1915. Since when, I've been using sugar substitute...
Blackadder: ...Which is?
Baldrick: Dandruff. But I could add some milk this time, or, Saliva
Blackadder: No thank you Baldrick. Call me Mr. Picky, but I think I'll pass.

War and scarcity GRRM gave us all those Summer banquet descriptions with a purpose.

[Melifeather]

14 hours ago, Queen Allyria said:

Do you have any ideas for wtf Bobby B would put a feather on Lyanna's tomb going into a Rhaegar is the Daddy Reveal? Or why Dave would give away end game on a polo shirt? Still have any feeling on Mance? 

I had posted my thoughts about what the symbolism of the feather may have meant back in Heresy 216:

The feather was black and white, if I recall, and those colors could suggest a blending of ice and fire, however I don't see Robert as being someone that would have had that kind of insight, even if he believed Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

I also seem to recall some discussion on the possibility that it was from a guinea hen. The guinea hen was used in medieval times to symbolize a person with steadfast beliefs and a defender of their faith. If the show is trying to incorporate some of these faith elements - their motivations, and/or conspiracies with the Faith Militant etc, etc, then I could see the show attempting to identify the seven aspects of the Faith with Robert as ther Smith. Then the feather placement would be evidence to suggest that Robert believed he was a defender of his faith.

As for Mance...my opinions on him and the wildlings have not changed. I think the idea to recreate the white walkers and wights were his idea to manufacture a threat in order to get the Watch to believe that the wildlings were separate from the Others and allow them south of the Wall in order to save their lives. I've discarded my much earlier opinion that Mance was Jon's father. Ned is currently my favored father. I'm still wavering back and forth as to whether or not Mance is indeed in a cage, but I'm leaning towards him not being in the cage, because he's my favorite for being the true writer of the Pink Letter.

I am not familiar with the polo shirt.

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Seriously though, this is my biggest problem with R+L=J. It may well turn out to be so, but in Reader World its a massive distraction from the real issues of this story, which won't be resolved by Jon Snow; he isn't the messiah, just a very naughty boy. Sorting out the conflict between Ice and Fire is going to be much bigger and more complex than that.

The fact that the series reached five books without Jon's story arc starting to veer towards a potential payoff for Rhaegar being his dad, has certainly made me suspicious of that outcome.

So far GRRM has been very consistent with Jon's story arc.  Jon has been torn between his duties with the Night's Watch and his secret desire for Winterfell.  Even after he resisted Stannis's temptation to make himself lord, we get a scene where Jon goes into a berserker rage when he recalls a time when Cat (through Robb) told him he could never be lord of Winterfell for being a bastard.  Clearly GRRM isn't done with this conflict.

And the fact that Jon "dies" right after his decision to lead the Wildlings to liberate Winterfell makes me think when he returns/recovers this conflict will return in spades.

And is George going to continue the conflict that he has established between Cat and Jon in regards to Winterfell?  To me that may be Jon's next logical conflict.  If Jon returns as a revenant, and decides to take back Winterfell for his own, would this put him in conflict with Cat?  After all while she is currently in the South, she's still cradling Robb's Crown of the North.  She has also expressed a desire for revenge not just on the Freys, but also on the Boltons.  And assuming she takes care of the Freys, that should lead her north towards the Boltons and towards Winterfell.

So where does this leave any potential story arc for Jon and the Iron Throne.  Or Jon riding dragons?

 

[divica]

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The fact that the series reached five books without Jon's story arc starting to veer towards a potential payoff for Rhaegar being his dad, has certainly made me suspicious of that outcome.

So far GRRM has been very consistent with Jon's story arc.  Jon has been torn between his duties with the Night's Watch and his secret desire for Winterfell.  Even after he resisted Stannis's temptation to make himself lord, we get a scene where Jon goes into a berserker rage when he recalls a time when Cat (through Robb) told him he could never be lord of Winterfell for being a bastard.  Clearly GRRM isn't done with this conflict.

And the fact that Jon "dies" right after his decision to lead the Wildlings to liberate Winterfell makes me think when he returns/recovers this conflict will return in spades.

And is George going to continue the conflict that he has established between Cat and Jon in regards to Winterfell?  To me that may be Jon's next logical conflict.  If Jon returns as a revenant, and decides to take back Winterfell for his own, would this put him in conflict with Cat?  After all while she is currently in the South, she's still cradling Robb's Crown of the North.  She has also expressed a desire for revenge not just on the Freys, but also on the Boltons.  And assuming she takes care of the Freys, that should lead her north towards the Boltons and towards Winterfell.

So where does this leave any potential story arc for Jon and the Iron Throne.  Or Jon riding dragons?

 

I agree that politally jon being rhaegar's son doesn t seem to have much use, but I think it is very hard to see anyone sitting on the IT and rulling ALL kingdoms. To me the payoff might come when the north decides to be independent and as a stark and targaryen jon has a great claim to make the north independent without war with the south.

In regards to targ magic blood I strongly disagree. First, we have jon's berserker rages where he is capable of phisical feats that should be impossible for the normal him. Then it makes sense that it will be needed someone with targ a stark blood to be able to do some magical thing against the others that definetly defeats them. A 3ec shouldn t be enough because in the first long night there should have been several people with that ability, 3 dragons shouldn t be enough because there should have been more dragons during the first long night, even AA shouldn t be enough because he wasn t able to definetly defeat them, so far one of the few things that the current planetos might have that didn t have in the first war is a mixture of ice and fire.

 

[Tucu]

47 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The fact that the series reached five books without Jon's story arc starting to veer towards a potential payoff for Rhaegar being his dad, has certainly made me suspicious of that outcome.

So far GRRM has been very consistent with Jon's story arc.  Jon has been torn between his duties with the Night's Watch and his secret desire for Winterfell.  Even after he resisted Stannis's temptation to make himself lord, we get a scene where Jon goes into a berserker rage when he recalls a time when Cat (through Robb) told him he could never be lord of Winterfell for being a bastard.  Clearly GRRM isn't done with this conflict.

And the fact that Jon "dies" right after his decision to lead the Wildlings to liberate Winterfell makes me think when he returns/recovers this conflict will return in spades.

And is George going to continue the conflict that he has established between Cat and Jon in regards to Winterfell?  To me that may be Jon's next logical conflict.  If Jon returns as a revenant, and decides to take back Winterfell for his own, would this put him in conflict with Cat?  After all while she is currently in the South, she's still cradling Robb's Crown of the North.  She has also expressed a desire for revenge not just on the Freys, but also on the Boltons.  And assuming she takes care of the Freys, that should lead her north towards the Boltons and towards Winterfell.

So where does this leave any potential story arc for Jon and the Iron Throne.  Or Jon riding dragons?

 

Mel's "Hardhome" vision might be pointing towards a Stark on Stark "dance". The grey ash vs the white snow:

Quote

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained

 

[Frey family reunion]

34 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Mel's "Hardhome" vision might be pointing towards a Stark on Stark "dance". The grey ash vs the white snow:

 

That's an interesting interpretation.

One possibility that I thought of was the idea of using the show as a funhouse mirror version of the events of the book.

Claiming Jon's Targaryen name as "Aegon" was kind of absurd in the show, but perhaps makes a bit more sense with the possibility that the show used Jon Snow as a stand in for "Aegon" Young Griff.  

The show never gave us certain characters like Young Griff, or Val both of whom seem fairly important in the story arcs of Dany and Jon.  So presumably if the show was at least attempting to tepidly following George's outline, they would have had to figure out a way to substitute other characters for them.

And then we have Lady Stoneheart another character that the show never created.  Instead the show never killed off Beric Dondarrion.

And lo and behold we have Beric and his Brotherhood arriving at Winterfell shortly after Jon and his wildlings liberate it.  

So if something sort of similar happens in the books, it seems logical that it would be Stoneheart and her brotherhood arriving at Winterfell around the same time or shortly after Jon and his wildlings get there.

But if that's the case, then I fully expect GRRM to revisit the conflict that he's established between Jon and Cat.  A conflict that specifically centers around who should rightfully inherit Winterfell.

If so, then perhaps Jon's big parentage reveal will be something that would further this conflict along.  Something that might further Stoneheart's antipathy/hostility towards Jon and perhaps convince Jon more than ever that he should rightfully inherit Winterfell.

And then assuming that Mel's vision may in fact tease a Stark vs Stark conflict then it also appears that this conflict occurs when the Long Winter strikes in full.

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, divica said:

 

In regards to targ magic blood I strongly disagree. First, we have jon's berserker rages where he is capable of phisical feats that should be impossible for the normal him. 

 

Ah. but its long been a heretical tenet [one of the few most of us agree on] that Jon's beserker rages have nothing to do with a supposed "waking the dragon" moment, but are down to Ghost exerting his side of the warg link

[divica]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Mel's "Hardhome" vision might be pointing towards a Stark on Stark "dance". The grey ash vs the white snow:

 

I don t think this makes sense. The analogy would only work if it was a description of a conflict involving something related to the starks. As it is it is describing a battle between the wildlings and the others so there isn t a reason to link it to a Stark VS Stark conflict. 

 

46 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's an interesting interpretation.

One possibility that I thought of was the idea of using the show as a funhouse mirror version of the events of the book.

Claiming Jon's Targaryen name as "Aegon" was kind of absurd in the show, but perhaps makes a bit more sense with the possibility that the show used Jon Snow as a stand in for "Aegon" Young Griff.  

The show never gave us certain characters like Young Griff, or Val both of whom seem fairly important in the story arcs of Dany and Jon.  So presumably if the show was at least attempting to tepidly following George's outline, they would have had to figure out a way to substitute other characters for them.

And then we have Lady Stoneheart another character that the show never created.  Instead the show never killed off Beric Dondarrion.

And lo and behold we have Beric and his Brotherhood arriving at Winterfell shortly after Jon and his wildlings liberate it.  

So if something sort of similar happens in the books, it seems logical that it would be Stoneheart and her brotherhood arriving at Winterfell around the same time or shortly after Jon and his wildlings get there.

But if that's the case, then I fully expect GRRM to revisit the conflict that he's established between Jon and Cat.  A conflict that specifically centers around who should rightfully inherit Winterfell.

If so, then perhaps Jon's big parentage reveal will be something that would further this conflict along.  Something that might further Stoneheart's antipathy/hostility towards Jon and perhaps convince Jon more than ever that he should rightfully inherit Winterfell.

And then assuming that Mel's vision may in fact tease a Stark vs Stark conflict then it also appears that this conflict occurs when the Long Winter strikes in full.

 

One big problem a cat VS Jon conflict is which of her kids would she be representing? Who would support her once robb's will comes to light? 

I think it is more likely that she will plot to assassinate Jon than create a conflict. And it fits the lady stoneheart persona to assume Jon is trying to steal from her kids as she always thought and dispense her justice. Besides, she will probably think LF is on her side and we know he likes his assassinations... 

[divica]

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah. but its long been a heretical tenet [one of the few most of us agree on] that Jon's beserker rages have nothing to do with a supposed "waking the dragon" moment, but are down to Ghost exerting his side of the warg link

The problem isn t so much where the rage comes from but what he is capable to do once he is in that state. 

Either Jon can use some of ghost abilities when enraged or it is related to his targ side. And we do know that targs might have a berserker side that gives them improved physical abilities but we havent seen skinchangers siphoning strength from their animal companions. 

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t think this makes sense. The analogy would only work if it was a description of a conflict involving something related to the starks. As it is it is describing a battle between the wildlings and the others so there is a reason to link it to a Stark VS Stark conflict. 

 

One big problem a cat VS Jon conflict is which of her kids would she be representing? Who would support her once robb's will comes to light? 

I think it is more likely that she will plot to assassinate Jon than create a conflict. And it fits the lady stoneheart persona to assume Jon is trying to steal from her kids as she always thought and dispense her justice. Besides, she will probably think LF is on her side and we know he likes his assassinations... 

There would be two, maybe three possibilities.  1. Would be Sansa Stark assuming that Brienne's quest for this "holy grail" hasn't ended.  2. Would be Rickon.

3.  A third possibility that I'd consider is that Robb's will left Winterfell to Catelyn.  Which Preston Jacobs' made a fairly compelling argument for in one of his videos.

As for Littlefinger, I highly doubt that Stoneheart would ever ally herself with Littlefinger again, after his betrayel of her husband.

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t think this makes sense. The analogy would only work if it was a description of a conflict involving something related to the starks. As it is it is describing a battle between the wildlings and the others so there is a reason to link it to a Stark VS Stark conflict. 

 

One big problem a cat VS Jon conflict is which of her kids would she be representing? Who would support her once robb's will comes to light? 

I think it is more likely that she will plot to assassinate Jon than create a conflict. And it fits the lady stoneheart persona to assume Jon is trying to steal from her kids as she always thought and dispense her justice. Besides, she will probably think LF is on her side and we know he likes his assassinations... 

Why it doesn't make sense? Grey and white are the Stark colours. The white sweeps in and the grey rise to meet them and they whirl around. After that it comes the cold wind and mist, darkness and death.

[divica]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

There would be two, maybe three possibilities.  1. Would be Sansa Stark assuming that Brienne's quest for this "holy grail" hasn't ended.  2. Would be Rickon.

3.  A third possibility that I'd consider is that Robb's will left Winterfell to Catelyn.  Which Preston Jacobs' made a fairly compelling argument for in one of his videos.

As for Littlefinger, I highly doubt that Stoneheart would ever ally herself with Littlefinger again, after his betrayel of her husband.

But does she know that LF betrayed ned? I don t think so... And if she thinks that he saved her daughter from kl and is marrying her to the heir of the vale he will look like a hero in her eyes. 

The problem with Preston is that he is very good at manipulating what he reads into fitting his theories. Whatever sources he used should be read in context in order to verify if what he says makes sense. And it is completely illogical for Robb to give catelyn winterfell. First, it is the seat of the warden/king of the north, second it is the only place from where Jon could hold court and house his forces, third it would create civil war because Sansa (who is married to tyrion at that point) is cat's heir and therefore tyrion and the lannisters would have a stronghold in the north, fourth he could give her land some where in order for her to live comfortably, it does t need to be winterfell. I see no logical reason for him to do that...