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Black Crow

Heresy 234 and the coming of Winter

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10 hours ago, Tucu said:

The trees were huge and dark, somehow threatening. Their limbs wove through one another and creaked with every breath of wind, and their higher branches scratched at the face of the moon. The sooner we are shut of here, the better I will like it, Asha thought. The trees hate us all, deep in their wooden hearts

And the Three-Fingered Tree Huggers [sorry] in the cave of skulls are not friendly elves

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

And the Three-Fingered Tree Huggers [sorry] in the cave of skulls are not friendly elves

Quote

"Justice." Thoros smiled wanly. "I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king's men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all."

and

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“These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.”

 

Edited by Tucu

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5 hours ago, Tucu said:

“These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.”

And that is the real point of this story; not putting someone on the Iron Throne, but coming through a conflict which not only has the potential to destroy the world, but one in which some parties are actively aspiring to bring about that destruction in order to create a new world in their image - and yes I', looking at Our Mel. the Red Lot, and the Dragons.

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Ghost is white and does not look like his siblings. He also goes off on his own and his eyes were open before the others. Jon claims him, because he found him after all the other wolves were claimed by his legitimate siblings, but I could see how the eyes being open first should be Bran unless Jon's eyes were open and he just didn't realize it? :dunno:

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2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Ghost is white and does not look like his siblings. He also goes off on his own and his eyes were open before the others. Jon claims him, because he found him after all the other wolves were claimed by his legitimate siblings, but I could see how the eyes being open first should be Bran unless Jon's eyes were open and he just didn't realize it? :dunno:

Doesn't Jon also think that Ghost belongs to the old gods?  And by extension, Jon?  Maybe all the direwolves belong to the old gods.  Potentially, they are all conduits for Bran to talk to his siblings. 

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11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Doesn't Jon also think that Ghost belongs to the old gods?  And by extension, Jon?  Maybe all the direwolves belong to the old gods.  Potentially, they are all conduits for Bran to talk to his siblings. 

Jon certainly realises that Ghost belongs to the Old Gods, but I wonder whether its more complex than that or rather I wonder whether the wolves are more than just a conduit, but may be more like the equivalent of dragons

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Jon certainly realises that Ghost belongs to the Old Gods, but I wonder whether its more complex than that or rather I wonder whether the wolves are more than just a conduit, but may be more like the equivalent of dragons

Well dragons are fire made flesh.  The equivalent seems to be the WW who are ice made flesh.  Are dragons and WW one the old races?

However dragons and wolves are familiars who become soul bonded. and initiate wolf dreams or dragon dreams. 

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)

An age of wonders and terrors that no man now living would hope to comprehend.

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Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were

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Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes

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Only one living kraken has never known defeat. Only one has never bent his knee. Only one has sailed to Asshai by the Shadow, and seen wonders and terrors beyond imagining

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If the sailors could be believed, the east was seething with wonders and terrors: a slave revolt in Astapor, dragons in Qarth, grey plague in Yi Ti. A new corsair king had risen in the Basilisk Isles and raided Tall Trees Town, and in Qohor followers of the red priests had rioted and tried to burn down the Black Goat

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"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ."

 

Edited by Tucu

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21 hours ago, Queen Allyria said:

Have you, or really any of you all put any thought into the old idea that the wolves are divided wrong. To me it seems like Ghost should be Bran's. Did he get handed the wrong wolf. It almost feels like Jon should have Shaggy, since he's a black brother. Just the fur and eye colors seem off. Unless the switch was in my head or meant to protect them too much. 

I have suggested this once or twice, too, I guess. Either Bran got the wrong wolf, or Jon should have  been picked by the three-eyed-raven while Bran had joined the watch.

Lately, however, I came to the conclusion, that this is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (or loophole, for the LOST addicts) to the story. If Ghost had ended up with Bran, the same old story would have repeated again (and the culture of Westeros didn't progress for 8,000 years). But with this small change the story will have a different outcome as before. "It only ends once."

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

we've discussed the wolves a lot over the years, but they do seem to be pretty matched. Indeed from the very beginning GRRM has emphasised not just the links between the children of Winterfell and their familiars, but their resemblance

Arguably of course, although it might be anathema in some quarters, Ghost in both name, appearance and behaviour is foreshadowing Jon's fate.

And I can see it being that way too. It's definitely the most straightforward way to look at it.

It just bothers me that Bran didn't choose Summer. Summer was handed to him. I need to look to see if it was Robb or Jon that handed him over. Then we have Catelyn's compulsion that it should have been Jon and not Bran that was on death's door. Maybe it's not even the wolf. It's just this strange gut feeling that the way things played out it was manipulated so that Jon and Bran took each other's places. It's this symbolic undertone throughout everything.

There's a whole symbolic level in these books layered underneath the story. We're all picking up on it. We all are looking hard at the same quotes. But we are all interpreting so differently. Anyways just a stray thought. But Im sure more time will be spent on the wolves soon enough. Lol

Edited by Queen Allyria
Typo

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And the Three-Fingered Tree Huggers [sorry] in the cave of skulls are not friendly elves

I've adjusted. Just wanted to say it for a long time. ;) 

I see what you're saying with this. It's that the Cave and Dany's meeting with the Wizards of Qarth were pretty parallel events. Both were very creepy and kinda accomplish the same thing. But in a way they are also the exact inverse of one another. The House of the undying is using actual magic to extend their lives unnaturally. And Dany is in actual danger of being trapped. She is actually informed of it and warned her visions may or may not be true. And she is being led by humans trying to kill her for their own agenda. 

Bran is led and directed by friends with clues from the CotF and given extra help via Coldhands when he needs it. He is guarded safely to the cave and is treated well there. He is never stopped from exploring as Hodor and Hodor always comes back. He has been wedded to the trees in his mind. (And yes. He is trapped by the wights. But why assume it's the CotF? They've had opportunity to do much worse to him and haven't.) However, he is still NOT thethered to a tree. Yet amazingly he can still see what it does and review it's past. Maybe this is more of a hint that BloodRaven was a Greenseer well earlier than acknowledged, than a look into Brans future? It explains a LOT.

The CotF HELPED the last time when they had much more lose. Why would that suddenly change?  Maybe they truly just care about planetos and life as a whole. Even as a human I wouldn't want that type of revenge. 

Edited by Queen Allyria

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4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Ghost is white and does not look like his siblings. He also goes off on his own and his eyes were open before the others. Jon claims him, because he found him after all the other wolves were claimed by his legitimate siblings, but I could see how the eyes being open first should be Bran unless Jon's eyes were open and he just didn't realize it? :dunno:

Yeah. Another question there that we don't know the answer to. He has definitely bonded with Ghost. But here's the thing. Is warging something that is predetermined. Like that wolf is meant for that person. Or do wargs just naturally have the ability to connect with any wolf and somehow subconsciously choose. I mean theoretically Jon's bond with Ghost could have been forged simply because he was left behind. Bran seems awfully jealous of Ghost's name. He also has a hard time making summer. 

Yeah. So this leads me to the same place. Still no clue. lol. 

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Have you seen the contents of the Bloodraven's freezer? As bad as that basement in The Road

Quote

The snows had buried most of them again, but they were still there, hidden, frozen, waiting. Other dead things came to join them, things that had once been men and women, even children. Dead ravens sat on bare brown branches, wings crusted with ice. A snow bear crashed through the brush, huge and skeletal, half its head sloughed away to reveal the skull beneath. Summer and his pack fell upon it and tore it into pieces. Afterward they gorged, though the meat was rotted and half-frozen, and moved even as they ate it.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Doesn't Jon also think that Ghost belongs to the old gods?  And by extension, Jon?  Maybe all the direwolves belong to the old gods.  Potentially, they are all conduits for Bran to talk to his siblings. 

All good points. Thing is... Bran seems to belong to the Old Gods even MORE than Jon is at this point. I mean he's a Greenseer. How much more Old God can you get? 

ETA Its definitely a conduit. We've already seen him use it that way once in Jon's dream when he is out ranging to find the Wildings beyond the pass. 

Edited by Queen Allyria

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Jon certainly realises that Ghost belongs to the Old Gods, but I wonder whether its more complex than that or rather I wonder whether the wolves are more than just a conduit, but may be more like the equivalent of dragons

I've wondered the same thing. I ruled it out however. I see the Dragons and the white walkers as more parallel. (Dragons are as close to immortal lethal weapon as you can get.) But that's also because of the way I've chosen to view the white walkers. In my opinion they are the human greenseers who managed to find a way to escape the trees. The only other explanation that makes sense to me is that it is the spirit of the trees themselves. 

I remember reading through a lot of the old heresy threads years ago before getting up enough guts to actually speak. There was a very old discussion about the possibility of this being caused by humans trying to seek immortality. I think they were right. 

I also agree with whomever it was, Matthew? That feel that they are basically made of frozen air. They magically create there own bodies. That's why dragonglass "breaks the spell" Yes I remember your excitement BC. Heat v cold. It steams and melts. Nothing is left behind. Not even the sword possibly. 

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well dragons are fire made flesh.  The equivalent seems to be the WW who are ice made flesh.  Are dragons and WW one the old races?

However dragons and wolves are familiars who become soul bonded. and initiate wolf dreams or dragon dreams. 

I'm going with the second life of a Greenseer or Essos equivalent. Just gut though.  ;) 

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17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Have you seen the contents of the Bloodraven's freezer? As bad as that basement in The Road

 

Yup. It's absurdly nasty. But it was what was available and it kept Summer from starving to death. Clearly there's not a whole lot of mobility to and from that cave. They would need to stock up for visitors that they had no clue if or when they could get there. I mean even Coldhands had difficulty getting them food and he was traveling. And as you suggested... Freezer. 

Not to mention... We don't know for sure what exactly directs the wights. Are they being controlled and sent? Are they heat seeking missiles? Bit of both? 

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Just now, Queen Allyria said:

Yup. It's absurdly nasty. But it was what was available and it kept Summer from starving to death. Clearly there's not a whole lot of mobility to and from that cave. They would need to stock up for visitors that they had no clue if or when they could get there. I mean even Coldhands had difficulty getting them food and he was traveling. And as you suggested... Freezer. 

Not to mention... We don't know for sure what exactly directs the wights. Are they being controlled and sent? Are they heat seeking missiles? Bit of both? 

Probably not just Summer. Mystery meat stew everyday for everyone :-)

Quote

And almost every day they ate blood stew, thickened with barley and onions and chunks of meat. Jojen thought it might be squirrel meat, and Meera said that it was rat. Bran did not care. It was meat and it was good. The stewing made it tender.

 

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23 minutes ago, Queen Allyria said:

All good points. Thing is... Bran seems to belong to the Old Gods even MORE than Jon is at this point. I mean he's a Greenseer. How much more Old God can you get? 

ETA Its definitely a conduit. We've already seen him use it that way once in Jon's dream when he is out ranging to find the Wildings beyond the pass. 

That dream chapter is one of the weirdest things in asoiaf. Iike was it future bran showing jon how to open his third eye? Was it present bran? What happened to jon's third eye? 

In regards to jon and bran. I think we can argue that bran is an old god while jon is one of their representatives? Like the wolf is a simbol jon is chosen by the old gods and it would be wasted on bran because he is going to become one of the old gods. Maybe jon's phisical feats really are because of some special ability related to warging? I mean, if the leaders of the old gods could become 3er to aquire knowledge it makes sense that their warriors should have some special ability too?

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47 minutes ago, Queen Allyria said:

I've adjusted. Just wanted to say it for a long time. ;) 

I see what you're saying with this. It's that the Cave and Dany's meeting with the Wizards of Qarth were pretty parallel events. Both were very creepy and kinda accomplish the same thing. But in a way they are also the exact inverse of one another. The House of the undying is using actual magic to extend their lives unnaturally. And Dany is in actual danger of being trapped. She is actually informed of it and warned her visions may or may not be true. And she is being led by humans trying to kill her for their own agenda. 

Bran is led and directed by friends with clues from the CotF and given extra help via Coldhands when he needs it. He is guarded safely to the cave and is treated well there. He is never stopped from exploring as Hodor and Hodor always comes back. He has been wedded to the trees in his mind. (And yes. He is trapped by the wights. But why assume it's the CotF? They've had opportunity to do much worse to him and haven't.) However, he is still NOT thethered to a tree. Yet amazingly he can still see what it does and review it's past. Maybe this is more of a hint that BloodRaven was a Greenseer well earlier than acknowledged, than a look into Brans future? It explains a LOT.

The CotF HELPED the last time when they had much more lose. Why would that suddenly change?  Maybe they truly just care about planetos and life as a whole. Even as a human I wouldn't want that type of revenge. 

I think there is one little problem that people tend to forget. Bran was headed in a dark path before he reached that cave. He warged into hodor and was in summer while it ate. Those are things he should never do and have probably corrupted him.

Given the TV show and the direction bran was going I wouldn t be surprised if he misuses his powers to punish his family enemies and become some supreme ruler. It would make sense for grrm to use him to show that power and tragedy corrupts even the purest of souls.

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