Heresy 234 and the coming of Winter

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I agree with what you've said, but I was specifically referring to waking dragons from stone (eggs).

Yes, I'm saying that the mother of dragons has to be chosen and go through the spiritual cleansing that Dany goes through as a precursor to waking dragons from stone (hatching eggs).  

Doesn't Mel also say she can wake dragons from stone if she can sacrifice Edric?  I think she knows more about Nissa Nissa than we've been told. 

[LynnS]

weasel words: words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading.

On 3/17/2021 at 4:14 PM, Melifeather said:

George R.R. Martin:  You're supposed to debate that.  Melisandre wanted everyone to think that the spell she did with the leaches killed the three kings, but there is another explanation:  Her ability to see the future through the flames showed her that the three kings were going to die because of the machinations of other characters.  Seeing their deaths were coming, she staged this demonstration to take credit for their deaths. 

This more or less confirms that she does see the future in the flames.  She can also see the present and makes some astonishing claims.  Speaking to the dead?

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"I can tell. He only threatened to behead me twice."

Melisandre laughed. "It is his silences you should fear, not his words." As they stepped out into the yard, the wind filled Jon's cloak and sent it flapping against her. The red priestess brushed the black wool aside and slipped her arm through his. "It may be that you are not wrong about the wildling king. I shall pray for the Lord of Light to send me guidance. When I gaze into the flames, I can see through stone and earth, and find the truth within men's souls. I can speak to kings long dead and children not yet born, and watch the years and seasons flicker past, until the end of days."

"Are your fires never wrong?"

"Never … though we priests are mortal and sometimes err, mistaking this must come for this may come." 

Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather. The sight of them arm in arm was drawing curious looks. They will be whispering in the barracks tonight. "If you can truly see the morrow in your flames, tell me when and where the next wildling attack will come." He slipped his arm free.

"R'hllor sends us what visions he will, but I shall seek for this man Tormund in the flames." Melisandre's red lips curled into a smile. "I have seen you in my fires, Jon Snow."

 

This sounds very much like Greenseer vision and I'm not sure how much credit to give her since this also a seduction scene. We could call her a Red Seer.

I'm also not sure that Mel reached out to Orel's eagle with her mind to burn him or if crossing some magical barrier in the Wall was the cause, for which she took credit.

I'm still wondering about how Melisandre is one of Martin's most misunderstood characters.

[Jaenara Belarys]

When Viserys says "Don't wake the dragon" he's just saying don't make me angry. The waking dragons from stone is completely different and involves hatching dragons from stone eggs. Daenerys satisfies the waking stone dragons, born amidst smoke and salt (Dragonstone and Drogo's pyre), and the bleeding red star. What dragons does she mean to hatch? She doesn't have dragon eggs, so far as we know. And she's pretty far from Dragonstone if those are the stone dragons she means. And Dragonstone is taken by troops of the Iron Throne and Houses Tyrell and Redwyne.

19 hours ago, LynnS said:

Doesn't Mel also say she can wake dragons from stone if she can sacrifice Edric? 

[Frey family reunion]

On 3/18/2021 at 12:28 PM, Black Crow said:

Indeed, so why go to Summerhall in the first place rather than to the Targaryens' smoking island in the salt sea ?

If they have been puzzling over the prophecy for 1,000 years, was that why they fetched up on Dragonstone in the first place ?

Something which may be relevant here and to the coincidences [?] anent the Azor Ahai stories and the Valyrians conquering the world, is that when Volantis tried to re-establish the empire after the Doom, the Targaryens joined in the fight against them.

As for your first, good question. 

As for your second, it kind of depends on who’s been puzzling over the prophecy.  While the knee jerk reaction might be the Targaryens, or the Valyrians, my gut tells me he’s referring to another group he’s a part of, the Maesters.  

It’s the Citadel that’s been puzzling over the prophecy for the last 1,000 years.  They are the ones who thought themselves “so wise”.  I’m not 100% sure the Targaryens were even aware of TPTWP prophecy when they hopped to Dragonstone.  We don’t hear any reference of it until after their marriage into the Martells.

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for your first, good question. 

As for your second, it kind of depends on who’s been puzzling over the prophecy.  While the knee jerk reaction might be the Targaryens, or the Valyrians, my gut tells me he’s referring to another group he’s a part of, the Maesters.  

It’s the Citadel that’s been puzzling over the prophecy for the last 1,000 years.  They are the ones who thought themselves “so wise”.  I’m not 100% sure the Targaryens were even aware of TPTWP prophecy when they hopped to Dragonstone.  We don’t hear any reference of it until after their marriage into the Martells.

I think you may be right. The immediate reaction on reading is that Aemon is talking about the Targaryens, but in reality apart from the occasional desire to become a dragon [regarded even in the family as a crackpot idea] there's a conspicuous lack of interest until Rhaegar gets the idea in his head from a book rather than from his father's knee or his mother's tit. Classic conspiracy theory stuff really and far more likely to come out of the shadows of the Citadel - and render those reading into it far more susceptible to left of field "evidence" coming from the likes of a woods witch with no known connection to House Targaryen

[corbon]

On 3/19/2021 at 2:53 AM, Melifeather said:

I was looking for text to support the connection between the Prince that was Promised and the War for the Dawn, so thank you for confirming that. I still suspect that Melisandre is trying to combine two heroes. Yes, Azor Ahai was a beast slayer wielding a special sword, but the Prince that was Promised presumably uses dragons in the Battle for the Dawn. Doesn't this seem like a distinctive difference to you?

No, it doesn't. Purely because we are fumbling around in the dark here.
As others have posited, its entirely possible that sword and dragon are interchangeable metaphors in this contect. 

On 3/19/2021 at 5:35 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I agree. I would also add that if Aemon believed it, it's a decent bet that Rhaegar believed it as well.  

I'm not sure it's exactly the same prophecy.  Do we have any indication that the "waking dragons from stone" was also a part of the prince that was promised prophecy?  

I think Aemon, who talks of tPtwP rather than AA, saying "the dragons prove it" is a pretty strong indication that they are part of tPtwP prophecy, yes.

On 3/19/2021 at 5:35 AM, Frey family reunion said:

According to Aemon, they had been trying to figure out the prince that was promised prophecy for about a thousand years.  So while it may be recent in relation to the Azor Ahai prophecy I don't think it's been too recent.

ETA:  I don't believe that the prophecy originated from the wood's witch.  I think the prophecy predates her by quite a bit.  I think the wood's witch was the one who narrowed down the prince (princess?) as being from the line of Aerys and Rahella (or perhaps the line of Jaehaerys and Shaera).

Agreed.

On 3/19/2021 at 10:54 PM, LynnS said:

weasel words: words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading.

This more or less confirms that she does see the future in the flames.  She can also see the present and makes some astonishing claims.  Speaking to the dead?

She can see the past also, not just the present and future. From seeing teh past to speaking (in the past) to (now) dead people isn;t that big a step, really.

On 3/19/2021 at 11:19 AM, LynnS said:

Yes, I'm saying that the mother of dragons has to be chosen and go through the spiritual cleansing that Dany goes through as a precursor to waking dragons from stone (hatching eggs).  

Doesn't Mel also say she can wake dragons from stone if she can sacrifice Edric?  I think she knows more about Nissa Nissa than we've been told. 

While I don't disagree with the first statement there, I suspect that there is more than one way to wake dragons, with more than one meaning of the term (and thats not including the way Viserys used it).

And yes, I doubt many of the 'players' understand exactly what the full meaning and consequences are - not even Mel. I think its clear that Dany had no (conscious) idea what she was doing, but allowed herself to be guided by intuition or whatever you want to call it without conscious understanding.

On 3/20/2021 at 7:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

As for your first, good question. 

As for your second, it kind of depends on who’s been puzzling over the prophecy.  While the knee jerk reaction might be the Targaryens, or the Valyrians, my gut tells me he’s referring to another group he’s a part of, the Maesters.  

Worth noting also that Rhaegar had a close connection with the Maesters as a group, perhaps closer than almost any prior Targaryen King?

On 3/20/2021 at 7:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

It’s the Citadel that’s been puzzling over the prophecy for the last 1,000 years.  They are the ones who thought themselves “so wise”.  I’m not 100% sure the Targaryens were even aware of TPTWP prophecy when they hopped to Dragonstone.  We don’t hear any reference of it until after their marriage into the Martells.

I like this idea. Just wary of considering us 'so wise' while discussing it. 

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, corbon said:

And yes, I doubt many of the 'players' understand exactly what the full meaning and consequences are - not even Mel. I think its clear that Dany had no (conscious) idea what she was doing, but allowed herself to be guided by intuition or whatever you want to call it without conscious understanding.

Worth noting also that Rhaegar had a close connection with the Maesters as a group, perhaps closer than almost any prior Targaryen King?

Yes, its the Musgrave Ritual again, but so far as Danaerys unconscious actions are concerned I rather suspect that given her "dragon dreams" it isn't intuition but man.ipulation in the manner of Bran's crow dreams

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, its the Musgrave Ritual again, but so far as Danaerys unconscious actions are concerned I rather suspect that given her "dragon dreams" it isn't intuition but man.ipulation in the manner of Bran's crow dreams

Quite possibly Bran, but it could also be someone else via a glass candle. I suspect that since we're dealing in dualities (black and white, fire and ice, etc) that Bloodraven has an opposing counterpart - probably Euron - that uses glass candles rather than weirwoods, but I'm open to other candidates. 

[Black Crow]

59 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Quite possibly Bran, but it could also be someone else via a glass candle. I suspect that since we're dealing in dualities (black and white, fire and ice, etc) that Bloodraven has an opposing counterpart - probably Euron - that uses glass candles rather than weirwoods, but I'm open to other candidates. 

Ah no, I'm not suggesting intervention by Bran or anyone else on that side, rather I'm suggesting a similar "mechanism" involving an unidentified third party

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Quite possibly Bran, but it could also be someone else via a glass candle. I suspect that since we're dealing in dualities (black and white, fire and ice, etc) that Bloodraven has an opposing counterpart - probably Euron - that uses glass candles rather than weirwoods, but I'm open to other candidates. 

The first one that comes to mind is Quaithe.  She's obviously figured out a way to communicate with Dany telepathically.  I guess the question is was she doing that before she met her outside of Qarth, or did it take her physical contact with Dany to set up the telepathic link?

[LynnS]

What comes to mind for me is the big house with the red door and the smell of home where there id a fire in every window and all the doors are red.  I still think her room was part of a red temple complex.  

Dany dreams of leaving the house with the red door of being inside the house:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

Through the red door, outside the big house:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… wake the dragon …"

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

 

 

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What comes to mind for me is the big house with the red door and the smell of home where there id a fire in every window and all the doors are red.  I still think her room was part of a red temple complex.  

Dany dreams of leaving the house with the red door of being inside the house:

Through the red door, outside the big house:

 

As the only other red doors in the books are in the Great Hall of Dragonstone I tend to think that whatever is calling Dany resides there.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The first one that comes to mind is Quaithe.  She's obviously figured out a way to communicate with Dany telepathically.  I guess the question is was she doing that before she met her outside of Qarth, or did it take her physical contact with Dany to set up the telepathic link?

I agree, and these are the quotes that I consider to be potential hints that Quaithe had 'contacted' Dany as early as AGOT, presumably via glass candle:



Dany IX, AGOT, in the same chapter where she has long string of dragon dreams and visions (and directly before she has the sudden inspiration to build Drogo's pyre)

Quote

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

Dany X, ADWD, as she wonders the Dothraki Sea

Quote

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

"Quaithe?" Dany called. "Where are you, Quaithe?"

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

IMO, the "whispering of stars" in AGOT, occurring at the same time as all of her dreams that are leading up to waking the dragons, is Quaithe manipulating Dany.

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Tucu said:

As the only other red doors in the books are in the Great Hall of Dragonstone I tend to think that whatever is calling Dany resides there.

Possibly, but not necessarily. A supplementary question might be to ask why the Dragonstone doors are red ?

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

"Quaithe?" Dany called. "Where are you, Quaithe?"

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

This feels very like Bran's crow dream, when the Devil shows him the world.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Possibly, but not necessarily. A supplementary question might be to ask why the Dragonstone doors are red ?

There is a bit of fractals applied there. The doorway is the mouth of the stone dragon, the red door I assume represents fire. In (Dragon)stone to see the dragon(lords) in their lairs you have to go through the dragon's mouth.

[LynnS]

I like the idea that Quaithe has something to do with Dany's dreams.  Perhaps there is a connection between Quaithes  red wooden mask and the red door.  And Dany's tactile memory of soft hands and warm arms to hold you could point to a woman.  This might be Dany's earliest memory.

I'm not sure that Dragonstone fits for the Big House with the red door.  There are no lemon trees on Dragonstone and it doesn't smell of perfumes and oils.  Her explicit auto-biographical memory would begin around age 2 or 3.  I don't think she would have any memory of Dragonstone.  When was she taken from Dragonstone?  I assumed she was still an infant. 

When Do Memories Start — And What, Exactly, Will Kids Remember? | Fatherly   

[Tucu]

Dany's memories about the red door and the lemon tree appear to be a mix of memories, false memories and merged memories. The imagery of the servants expelling the dragonlords from their home plays well with the rebellion and even the assasinations that might have caused the Doom.

The calls coming from centres of ancient power make sense to me. The Heart of Winter calling Bran and a heart of fire calling Dany.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

The calls coming from centres of ancient power make sense to me. The Heart of Winter calling Bran and a heart of fire calling Dany.

Very much so and while there's a popular belief out there that this homely tale centres around Jon and Danaerys, if there is a counterpoint its between Bran and Danaerys and that in turn implies a very different dynamic 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Dany's memories about the red door and the lemon tree appear to be a mix of memories, false memories and merged memories. The imagery of the servants expelling the dragonlords from their home plays well with the rebellion and even the assasinations that might have caused the Doom.

The calls coming from centres of ancient power make sense to me. The Heart of Winter calling Bran and a heart of fire calling Dany.

It also implies that she may have false memories; memories not her own or memories that have been introduced to her 'story'.

I'm also reminded that weirwoods are portals or doors.  Quaithes red mask reminds me of Morna's weirwood mask and the red faces of the old gods.

I think this is the heart of fire, a dragon with a soul:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

And this, the soul within:  

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

"The maegi," someone else said. Was that Aggo? "Take her to the maegi."

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

 

Then again, I wonder what the Dusky Woman sees when she looks at Moqorro; if she sees a man wreathed in flames.