What If Jon Had A Targ Look

[CamiloRP]

Disclaimer: for this post we will assume R+L=J, so please don't argue about that theory here, if you want to discuss it Ithink it's great, there are many arguments to be made for and against it, just don't do it here. There are currently to activethreads in which people are discussing the merits of R+L=J ((f)dany and I know it's a tired topic, but tell me why A + N != J and R + L != A) there's also the long going R + L = J V.167

 

Now, with that out of the way, assuming R+L=J, what do you think Ned would have done if Jon 'looked Valiryan'? I think that Ned's personality demanded that he personally looked over the child, so I don't think he would ship him to Essos. But he couldn't keep shipping dyie to the North and hope no one would notice, also the eyes would give him away. So, would he go to Essos as well? Wouldn't that be a broking of his marriage vows in a way? 

What do you think he would have done and why?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

Maybe he would have kept him bald or that he would have left him with the Daynes or Reeds. He could have even allowed the gossips about Ashara still linger.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Actually, I think that the text seems to suggest that Jon did have the looks of a Targaryen as a baby in Catelyn II, AGoT 6. I think that this is where the Ashara rumor comes from in the first place. She is the perfect cover for this.

The only difference is that Jon may have grown up thinking that his mother was a Dayne, but still wouldn't have had any contact with her because she killed herself.

[Megorova]

I think he could have left Jon with Ashara at Starfall, and they would have planted a rumor that Jon is Ned's bastard, while the baby would have remained with the fake mother (who is actually his god-mother). Though that would have been complicated, because Ashara at that point already gave birth to Meera and was intending to go with Howland to the Neck.

So, if Ashara would have been unwilling to let Howland go home with Meera and without his wife, then they could have lied that Jon is Arthur's bastard, fathered on some unimportant woman. Though people that knew Arthur wouldn't have believed this rumor, what's with Arthur being a Kingsguard and an honourable guy.

Best option would have been planting Jon amongst Daynes, some of which also have "Valyrian" looks. Daynes knew about R+L, so they would have been the best option to play a role of foster parents, without involving additonal people who were outside of R+L-circle of trusted friends.

Or Ned could have given Jon to Martells, or sent him to Dragonstone, or after Rhaella's death to Braavos to Willem Darry, Dany and Viserys. Both options were dangerous.

If Ned still tried to keep Jon at Winterfell, despite his Targaryen looks, then they could have played "Manfryd of the Black Hood"-option, when Aegon IV's secret bastard-son, born by Aegon's daughter Jeyne Lothston, was presented to people as Lucas Lothston's bastard, and the boy was always wearing a black hood, to hide his silver-gold hair and his eye color. Though at Harrenhal many people knew the secret - not only Lucas and Jeyne (who probably died in childbirth (same as Lyanna), and then her family said that she died from pox, to which she was actually immune, because she was a dragonseed), but also Falena Stokeworth (Jeyne's mother), and the boy's wet-nurse, and other servants who tended to him while he was a baby. So if Ned kept Jon at Winterfell, he would have had to share his secret with at least Catelyn, and Benjen, and Winterfell's maester, and Old Nan, and he would have had to keep Wylla with Jon far longer than he did (she was that wet-nurse that Ned settled at Winterell with little Jon).

Or he could have kept Jon for a few years after his birth somewhere near Winterfell, where he would have an option of frequently visiting him. And when the child would have been a bit older, then he could have brought him to Winterfell. When the boy would have been old enough to share with him the secret about his real identity, and that he has to hide from others who he is, and to conceal his looks.

fAegon was given to JonCon when the boy was 5 years old, that's old enough to accept that he has to frequently dye his hair. fAegon painted his hair blue, Jon would have dyed his silver-gold hair into brown. If he had Rhaegar's indigo eyes, then with brown hair they could have passed for just dark blue, normal color, not some suspicious Targaryen eye color.

Keeping Jon away from Winterfell for part of his childhood, or permanenlty, like sending him to Essos or to Dragonstone, is also a viable option. Whatever Ned promised to Lyanna, it wasn't to keep Jon always with Ned's own family. Because Ned didn't. Ned did agreed to let Jon go and join Night's Watch. So it's not like he wouldn't have chosen an option in which he would have parted with Jon, instead of raising him as his bastard at Winterfell.

[Daeron the Daring]

People don't understand genetics in Westeros. Ned simply tells the mother had valyrian traits. Either a whore, or a lady, it is imaginable. And Robert would've accepted it, since Ned is his bwst buddy, and that's enough. 

[Mourning Star]

I think Ned answers your question himself:

Quote

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."
"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."
"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

If Eddard were responsible for a child who's hair/eye color gave away a parentage that would incur Robert's wrath, he would send the child into exile.

Given that Robert wouldn't know about a Targaryen looking child at the Tower of Joy, like he would Cersei's children if Ned told him, it's unclear to me if Ned would go with the child and/or take his whole family as he suggests here. So while this isn't exactly the same, it is a remarkably similar situation (something I do not think is a coincidence!).

[lehutin]

5 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Reeds.

I agree. If people are concerned that the N+A=J cover story won't work because Valyrian looks aren't the same as Dayne looks, then...Greywater Watch moves and has no maester, master-at-arms, or knights. Plus, it's still in the North; so Ned can check up on his nephew under the pretext of visiting an old friend and bannerman.

 

Even at Greywater Watch, if the concern is that people will talk about this Valyrian-looking kid, Jon's hair can be shaved, as was done for his ancestor Aegon V.

 

Essos/exile is not the first option; it is the last option, only if all the other options don't work.

[BlackLightning]

Then Ned would've been fucked. Because, ultimately, if Ned wanted to keep Jon close, then Ned would have had to tell either Jon himself, Benjen, Maester Luwin, Old Nan, Ser Rodrick, Catelyn or (more likely) all of them the truth in order to get them to help him disguise Jon's looks.

It be easy to disguise Jon's looks as a baby but once he grows up and becomes a child, the difficulties begin to multiply.

But telling that many people is risky. Especially since Ned and Jon's home happens to be both the capital and cultural center of the North. Too many people have to come and go for it not to be dangerous.

The lords of the North are loyal but are they that loyal? Idk. Roose Bolton proved that he was not and had been merely biding his time and Barbrey Dustin is questionable. How many more were that loyal?

On 2/4/2021 at 11:07 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Actually, I think that the text seems to suggest that Jon did have the looks of a Targaryen as a baby in Catelyn II, AGoT 6. I think that this is where the Ashara rumor comes from in the first place. She is the perfect cover for this.

The only difference is that Jon may have grown up thinking that his mother was a Dayne, but still wouldn't have had any contact with her because she killed herself.

Allegedly.

On 2/4/2021 at 11:32 AM, Megorova said:

I think he could have left Jon with Ashara at Starfall, and they would have planted a rumor that Jon is Ned's bastard, while the baby would have remained with the fake mother (who is actually his god-mother).

That would've really worked.

Even if Ashara killed herself (allegedly or truthfully), leaving a Targaryen-looking Jon at Starfall would've still worked because Jon still have been kept at Starfall as a ward of House Dayne. Of course, that would make any relationship between Ned Stark and House Dayne an even bigger conspiracy than what it already is.

But it makes for a fascinating spin on the story. Jon could've still left Starfall to go to Winterfell and then the Wall meet the other side of his family and then get wrapped up with the plot at the Wall what with the Others and the wildlings.

On 2/4/2021 at 11:32 AM, Megorova said:

Or Ned could have given Jon to Martells, or sent him to Dragonstone, or after Rhaella's death to Braavos to Willem Darry, Dany and Viserys. Both options were dangerous.

THAT WOULD'VE BEEN A BAD IDEA.

Both options would've been dangerous but giving Jon to the Martells would've been both dangerous, treacherous and stupid. And Ned isn't the sharpest knife in the kitchen but he's not that stupid. Nor is he the type of guy who would so openly and boldly betray his best friend and fiercest ally.

Plus Ned has no guile so I doubt he'd be able to pull off a secret send-off to Queen Rhaella, Prince Doran or Ser Willem Darry. Well, scratch that, he might've been able to pull off yeeting Jon into Prince Doran's household without anyone knowing.

Still too risky.

On 2/4/2021 at 12:18 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

People don't understand genetics in Westeros. Ned simply tells the mother had valyrian traits. Either a whore, or a lady, it is imaginable. And Robert would've accepted it, since Ned is his bwst buddy, and that's enough. 

The problem here is that Valyrian traits are extremely rare in Westeros and the likelihood of Ned cavorting with an Essosi woman with Valyrian traits is very low.

Another problem here is that Robert is not the only one Ned needs to convince. Ned needs to either get the entire country to look the other way or convince the entire country to believe him. Robert may believe him but no one else would. I know for a fact Varys, Littlefinger, Tyrion, Stannis, Tywin, and Catelyn wouldn't have fallen for it.

On 2/4/2021 at 11:32 AM, Megorova said:

Keeping Jon away from Winterfell for part of his childhood, or permanenlty, like sending him to Essos or to Dragonstone, is also a viable option. Whatever Ned promised to Lyanna, it wasn't to keep Jon always with Ned's own family. Because Ned didn't. Ned did agreed to let Jon go and join Night's Watch. So it's not like he wouldn't have chosen an option in which he would have parted with Jon, instead of raising him as his bastard at Winterfell.

I don't get why sending Jon to Oldtown and making him become a maester or a septon was never an option.

Hell, I think planting Jon at the Wall from the beginning or shuttling Jon off beyond the Wall to live with the wildlings at some point during his childhood are valid, if not last-ditch options. Sure, making Jon live as a wildling is both dangerous and a bit cruel, but he'd be safe and it'd make for a spectacular story.

On 2/4/2021 at 10:51 AM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

that he would have left him with the Daynes or Reeds

The Reeds or even the Skagosi are the best option.

Ned has a lot more control and clout where Howland Reed, the crannogmen and the Skagosi are concerned. Especially compared to the Daynes who are not only 2,000+ miles away but who are the bannermen of another very powerful House whose bitterness may lead them to do some digging and whose power means that they will be able to do such digging without dealing with any external or internal interference or consequences.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The Reeds or even the Skagosi are the best option.

Ned has a lot more control and clout where the crannogmen and the Skagosi are concerned. Especially compared to the Daynes who are not only 2,000+ miles away but who are the bannermen of another very powerful House whose bitterness may lead them to do some digging and whose power means that they will be able to do such digging without dealing with any external or internal interference or consequences.

Skagosi will eat Jon  in all truthfulness we haven't seen any connection between the Skagosi and the Ned.

[BlackLightning]

41 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Skagosi will eat Jon  in all truthfulness we haven't seen any connection between the Skagosi and the Ned.

Yeah maybe.

But the Skagosi are loyal enough to not betray the Starks of Winterfell even when they were down on their luck, Either that or they are hellbent on minding their own business.

Which ever way you want to spin it, it has to count for something.

Especially since that history tells us that the Skagosi have revolted on more than one occasion with one of said revolts being the reason why Skane is uninhabited...allegedly.

And unless whoever made the decision to hide Rickon on Skagos (likely Osha herself or one of the Umbers) is hoping that the Skagosi will turn Rickon into a sex slave or a couple dozen pounds of "beef" jerky, they and Osha felt comfortable enough taking Rickon to Skagos in the first place. It has got to mean something.

The only one who is expresses any real fear or apprehension about Skagos is Davos who happens to be a superstitious southern-born, seafaring ex-smuggler.

[Lollygag]

I suspect this may yet be an issue.

Lancel, Theon and Cat/Stoneheart all have their hair spontaneously go totally white after major injuries or death in Cat/Stoneheart's case. Now who just sustained a major injury? Ghost indeed.

Add to that while Jon's eyes are Stark grey, Stark eyes are very dark and Targ eyes are often described as so dark as to be almost black.

[BlackLightning]

15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I suspect this may yet be an issue.

Lancel, Theon and Cat/Stoneheart all have their hair spontaneously go totally white after major injuries or death in Cat/Stoneheart's case. Now who just sustained a major injury? Ghost indeed.

Add to that while Jon's eyes are Stark grey, Stark eyes are very dark and Targ eyes are often described as so dark as to be almost black.

Good point.

I think it's also worth highlighting that Jon is also under the age of 20. All though 16 is when you become an adult (aka man grown) in the ASOIAF universe, it is far from being full grown. Jon is still growing and developing.

It is not at all unheard of for children to look like one or both parents when they are young but as they age begin to resemble one parent exclusively. It's also not unheard of for children to drastically change in looks to the point where people can look at old photographs and find them unrecognizable. And on top of that, it's also common for changes in weight, hair or appearance gain to make people look more like one parent than the other. It's something that both happens in the ASOIAF universe and it real-life. It personally freaks me out to this day. But it could happen to Jon.

When he is resurrected from the dead, or healed or even receives some kind of haircut, people can start noticing. The last time that someone pointed out that Jon Snow looked like a Stark was way back in the first half of A Clash of Kings. He has clearly grown since then. Mance Rayder didn't say that he looked like a Stark, he just met him before and knew that he was a Stark.

• The Free Folk can point out how much people changed in looks and demeanor after some very traumatic experience or death and cite some wildling superstition or old wives' tale as proof. No one would would take them seriously but....
• Northmen can arbitrarily say things like "Are you sure this is Ned Stark's bastard? Ned Stark's bastard was supposed to look exactly like him? He only kinda looks like Ned Stark." Sansa, Bran, Arya, Theon and Lady Stoneheart can show up and go like "Whoa. Something about you is different than from when I last saw you...and no, it's not the beard nor is the fact that you died and came back."
• Jon can say or do something or look at someone a certain way that will make someone in the Night's Watch immediately think of Maester Aemon. Stannis may return to the Wall while Jon is still dead and muse at how much Jon's corpse reminds him of when he laid eyes on Rhaegar's corpse; we may never get a Stannis'POV. What he thinks is not revealed unless he voices his thoughts. Cersei and Jaime never paid Jon Snow any attention to begin with so when they see him up close, they can get that funny feeling of "who is this kid and why am I so fucking uncomfortable..." Daenerys may gravitate to Jon for the mere fact that something about him reminds her of a younger, less angry Viserys. Tyrion was so young at the time and likely never met Rhaegar so Jon's similarities to Rhaegar could've flown over his head.
• People like Barristan Selmy (who have never seen Jon but knew the Targaryens personally) can immediately be struck by and marvel at how much Jon Snow resembles Rhaegar Targaryen in demeanor and gait. Jorah Mormont can comment on how Jon's deepening voice sounds like Rhaegar's. Ser Benifer Hasty can say that Jon acts like Jaehaerys II. The Ghost of High Heart can flat-out point out that Jon is a living lie, a dragon in wolf's clothing. Lady Olenna Tyrell can see him and say something like "Gee, for a second, I thought he was Daeron Targaryen come back from the dead to marry me."

That could start happening which can set the stage of the massive, earthquaking revelation that R+L=J will be.

[King17]

I think the dayne Women as the mother would've covered that.

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Good point.

I think it's also worth highlighting that Jon is also under the age of 20. All though 16 is when you become an adult (aka man grown) in the ASOIAF universe, it is far from being full grown. Jon is still growing and developing.

It is not at all unheard of for children to look like one or both parents when they are young but as they age begin to resemble one parent exclusively. It's also not unheard of for children to drastically change in looks to the point where people can look at old photographs and find them unrecognizable. And on top of that, it's also common for changes in weight, hair or appearance gain to make people look more like one parent than the other. It's something that both happens in the ASOIAF universe and it real-life. It personally freaks me out to this day. But it could happen to Jon.

When he is resurrected from the dead, or healed or even receives some kind of haircut, people can start noticing. The last time that someone pointed out that Jon Snow looked like a Stark was way back in the first half of A Clash of Kings. He has clearly grown since then. Mance Rayder didn't say that he looked like a Stark, he just met him before and knew that he was a Stark.

• The Free Folk can point out how much people changed in looks and demeanor after some very traumatic experience or death and cite some wildling superstition or old wives' tale as proof. No one would would take them seriously but....
• Northmen can arbitrarily say things like "Are you sure this is Ned Stark's bastard? Ned Stark's bastard was supposed to look exactly like him? He only kinda looks like Ned Stark." Sansa, Bran, Arya, Theon and Lady Stoneheart can show up and go like "Whoa. Something about you is different than from when I last saw you...and no, it's not the beard nor is the fact that you died and came back."
• Jon can say or do something or look at someone a certain way that will make someone in the Night's Watch immediately think of Maester Aemon. Stannis may return to the Wall while Jon is still dead and muse at how much Jon's corpse reminds him of when he laid eyes on Rhaegar's corpse; we may never get a Stannis'POV. What he thinks is not revealed unless he voices his thoughts. Cersei and Jaime never paid Jon Snow any attention to begin with so when they see him up close, they can get that funny feeling of "who is this kid and why am I so fucking uncomfortable..." Daenerys may gravitate to Jon for the mere fact that something about him reminds her of a younger, less angry Viserys. Tyrion was so young at the time and likely never met Rhaegar so Jon's similarities to Rhaegar could've flown over his head.
• People like Barristan Selmy (who have never seen Jon but knew the Targaryens personally) can immediately be struck by and marvel at how much Jon Snow resembles Rhaegar Targaryen in demeanor and gait. Jorah Mormont can comment on how Jon's deepening voice sounds like Rhaegar's. Ser Benifer Hasty can say that Jon acts like Jaehaerys II. The Ghost of High Heart can flat-out point out that Jon is a living lie, a dragon in wolf's clothing. Lady Olenna Tyrell can see him and say something like "Gee, for a second, I thought he was Daeron Targaryen come back from the dead to marry me."

That could start happening which can set the stage of the massive, earthquaking revelation that R+L=J will be.

Well, I'm not sure it'd go quite like that. Rather than pretty white hair, Lancel, Theon and Stoneheart all have fragile, broken, thin hair with bald spots. It's from severe physical trauma after all.

[Darksnider05]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:18 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

People don't understand genetics in Westeros. Ned simply tells the mother had valyrian traits. Either a whore, or a lady, it is imaginable. And Robert would've accepted it, since Ned is his bwst buddy, and that's enough. 

They understand enough to know children look like their parents most of the time, but yeah most fans don't seem to understand there are people with Valyrian traits all over the place.  Eddard having a child with one of them is not a super mystery and would require extreme proof to say this child is not who Eddard says.

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 2/10/2021 at 8:39 PM, BlackLightning said:

It is not at all unheard of for children to look like one or both parents when they are young but as they age begin to resemble one parent exclusively. It's also not unheard of for children to drastically change in looks to the point where people can look at old photographs and find them unrecognizable. And on top of that, it's also common for changes in weight, hair or appearance gain to make people look more like one parent than the other. It's something that both happens in the ASOIAF universe and it real-life. It personally freaks me out to this day. But it could happen to Jon.

Relevant quote;

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him.

The line is right there, in the text. 

Jon may not have looked like a Stark when he was a baby. As he grew, he started to look like one. Catelyn had to see something in Jon that reminded her of Ashara that she felt she had to confront Ned about her specifically. Ashara was tall and fair with haunting violet eyes. If I'm Catelyn and I'm looking at my husband's son and I'm hearing rumors about who his mother might be, then I'd try and find something that would tie the baby to the alleged mother. There's one single thing that Jon and Ashara could have had in common, and that's the eye color. My speculation for years has been that Jon's eye color went from purple to grey at some point, then as he aged, he started looking more like a Stark.

On 2/10/2021 at 8:39 PM, BlackLightning said:

The last time that someone pointed out that Jon Snow looked like a Stark was way back in the first half of A Clash of Kings.

It was in A Storm of Swords in Jon XI;

Stannis snorted. "I know Janos Slynt. And I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty. You have his look."

On 2/10/2021 at 8:39 PM, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion was so young at the time and likely never met Rhaegar so Jon's similarities to Rhaegar could've flown over his head.

According to Tyrion, he saw Rhaegar twice or thrice. But he was only 10 when the Battle of the Trident took place. 

The man who might have recognized Jon as a kinsman was blind and now he's dead. 

To two more names (three) to your list;

Jorah Mormont used to go to Winterfell when he was married to Lynesse. I don't think her presence in the north is a coincidence at all. 

Jon Connington is the biggest fish, though. 

[Egged]

Swap the child with Ashara+Brandon or Ashara+Ned's bastard, if one did exist  It's a good deal for both sides: The Daynes get their beloved Rhaegar's child instead of a rebel's bastard, and the Starks get a Stark instead of the child of the family which killed Ned's father and brother.

If there was a dislike button I bet I'd get a few :p

[Lord Lannister]

Basically Ned keeps Jon even more out of sight, maybe with the Reeds or fostering for a year here and there with his various banner men. He also probably lets the rumors about Ashara not quite die. But at least Cat is happy that Jon isn't around to blame for Ned's supposed infidelity. Or maybe she just doesn't have a target to lash out at and has to stand up to her husband about it.

[Lollygag]

I'll add that I think the story is impossible if Jon looked like a Targ, even with the Ashara's the mom cover story.

Varys' job was to track everyone, where they were, what they were doing, and Aerys was paranoid about Rhaegar. We know that he's very good at his job. Everyone knows legendary KG died at the ToJ at the hands of Ned. Varys knows what happened there. But with Jon being Ned's clone and with Ned's reputation, he can't prove it, and unless Jon can manage a dragon, he's useless to Varys.

ACOK Tyrion II

Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

 

Littlefinger never gave up on Cat. You think he really let go Ned having mistresses and bastards as a way to drive a wedge between Ned and Cat? LF dug into Ned's movements during that time looking for ammo to get Cat back somehow, and we know he's capable of finding out this info. So, I'm about as certain as I can be that LF knows too but like Varys, Jon is useless to him without the proof.

To think Varys and LF don't know is an unforgivable flaw in character-writing when it comes to both of them. If Jon looks like a Targ, then both Varys and LF have use for him and this story as written is impossible.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Easy enough. 

“Yeah it was me and ashara” or “KL has some Lys whores”