Was Theon right concerning Beth Cassel?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So one of the things that is a bit unnerving I think in ACOK, is before the battle of Wintertown, Theon has a noose around Beth Cassel's neck, threatening her father to hang her if he attacks. When Rodrick confronts him about this, Theon asks how exactly is this different from how he was treated. And like the disturbing thing is, he's right. It's a pretty nasty showing of just how fucked up the whole hostages/wards thing really is. So anyways, what do you think about this scene? Was Theon right?

[Daeron the Daring]

33 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So one of the things that is a bit unnerving I think in ACOK, is before the battle of Wintertown, Theon has a noose around Beth Cassel's neck, threatening her father to hang her if he attacks. When Rodrick confronts him about this, Theon asks how exactly is this different from how he was treated. And like the disturbing thing is, he's right. It's a pretty nasty showing of just how fucked up the whole hostages/wards thing really is. So anyways, what do you think about this scene? Was Theon right?

He's right until a point. But Ser Rodrick was obligated to get Winterfell back at all costs, Balon Greyjoy was not obligated, just cornered and blackmailed, so he would not begin a war. Hostages taken after war are one thing, hostages during war are different (just look at the case of Sansa).

[Alyn Oakenfist]

12 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Hostages taken after war are one thing, hostages during war are different (just look at the case of Sansa).

How? Isn't it still "be chill or (read in Gus Fring's voice) we will kill you child"

[Canon Claude]

8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How? Isn't it still "be chill or (read in Gus Fring's voice) we will kill you child"

It’s the same end, but the means are slightly different. Theon still grew up in a very privileged position, and Robb genuinely loved him. Everybody close to Sansa was manipulating her for their own means because all they saw her for what she could get them rather than who she was. Robb never had a hidden agenda, he just saw Theon as a brother-in-arms. And because Theon was loyal, his loyalty was rewarded.

[Daeron the Daring]

10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How? Isn't it still "be chill or (read in Gus Fring's voice) we will kill you child"

No. It's a "be chill or we'll kill your child" in Balon's case. It is not in Ser Rodrick's case. It is "put down the weapon or we'll kill you", meaning he has to give up his campaign. Balon didn't have to put down a weapon to keep Theon safe, he had not to raise it. That's what the difference is. Hostages in peacetime can work out well (Just look at the hostages during Jaehaerys I or Theon himself, who found friendship and would've gained influence thanks to that friendship but decided to fuck it all up. Now compare this to Sansa's case, who's brother fights daily against the cause of the people she is with. How is she supposed to get along with them?) There's also a reason why Ned was chosen to be ward for Theon. Because Ned had no intention in taking revenge on Balon trough him, unlike the Lannisters in this case. 

Altough the two are close, they aren't the same

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Ser Rodrick was obligated to get Winterfell back at all costs, Balon Greyjoy was not obligated, just cornered and blackmailed.

 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

the whole hostages/wards thing

Not only wards but also squires, cupbearers, companions, handmaidens and pages. Eustace’s story show how bad the deal is for all of the family. He lost all his sons, Alysanne was taken away and his wife chose suicide instead of the life without her children. Or even how Lanny’s life was shattered

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In her final years on Pyke, Lady Alannys could not sleep. She would wander the halls at night with a candle, looking for her sons. "Maron?" she would call shrilly. "Rodrik, where are you? Theon, my baby, come to Mother." Many a time Asha had watched the maester draw splinters from her mother's heels of a morning, after she had crossed the swaying plank bridge to the Sea Tower on bare feet. 

 

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

He's right until a point. But Ser Rodrick was obligated to get Winterfell back at all costs, Balon Greyjoy was not obligated, just cornered and blackmailed, so he would not begin a war. Hostages taken after war are one thing, hostages during war are different (just look at the case of Sansa).

I'm not sure I appreciate the distinction here. Why is it more ok to take hostages after a war than during a war? 

It would seem to me that threatening the life of an innocent person is wrong regardless.

I'm inclined to agree with Theon here.

I think the real question is would Ned have killed Theon if Balon rebelled while Theon was still a child? 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think the real question is would Ned have killed Theon if Balon rebelled while Theon was still a child? 

I don't think it matters. Sure Ned is an exceptional case, and given what we know of him, odds are he wouldn't have done it, but it doesn't really change either the institution, or how Theon and his family felt.

What's more, Ned's intentional distance from Theon, which he didn't have even with Jon, seems to suggest Ned might just have done it.

[Jay21]

Sure he was right.  That's exactly what he was taken for.  We can take from Balon's obedience in the years since his first rebellion that he had no doubt in Stark's resolve.  .

[CamiloRP]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think it matters. Sure Ned is an exceptional case, and given what we know of him, odds are he wouldn't have done it, but it doesn't really change either the institution, or how Theon and his family felt.

What's more, Ned's intentional distance from Theon, which he didn't have even with Jon, seems to suggest Ned might just have done it.

Ned would've deffo killed Theon if he needed to. It was his duty, and a defiance to the king and a let down to his vassals to not kill him.

[King17]

I get theons point but  Balon was a traitor who had to be kept in line somehow.i feel like theon being a hostage probably prevented bloodshed where as I don't think Beth being taking hostage would've prevented it. 

 

[The Young Maester]

In a feudal structure where a man holds lands and can do whatever he wants with said land. Holding hostages (wards), is the best way to ensure this man wont raise up in arms against his sovereign.

During the Cold War the US tried to use the same strategy, by holding nukes over countries head if they decided to pull a hitler.

You also have China that is currently using its economic clout to bully countries into submission.

Politically it has the same purpose as our own world. Just think of it as a deterrent from waging wars. 

[Daeron the Daring]

15 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm not sure I appreciate the distinction here. Why is it more ok to take hostages after a war than during a war? 

It would seem to me that threatening the life of an innocent person is wrong regardless.

I'm inclined to agree with Theon here.

I think the real question is would Ned have killed Theon if Balon rebelled while Theon was still a child? 

I don't get why do you ask me the same question others did already. Here is my longer explanation for this.

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No. It's a "be chill or we'll kill your child" in Balon's case. It is not in Ser Rodrick's case. It is "put down the weapon or we'll kill you", meaning he has to give up his campaign. Balon didn't have to put down a weapon to keep Theon safe, he had not to raise it. That's what the difference is. Hostages in peacetime can work out well (Just look at the hostages during Jaehaerys I or Theon himself, who found friendship and would've gained influence thanks to that friendship but decided to fuck it all up. Now compare this to Sansa's case, who's brother fights daily against the cause of the people she is with. How is she supposed to get along with them?) There's also a reason why Ned was chosen to be ward for Theon. Because Ned had no intention in taking revenge on Balon trough him, unlike the Lannisters in this case. 

Add to this that Balon only had to chill to get Theon back at some point. But, for example, Robb was responsible for the rebelling northern and riverland houses by the time he was blackmailed. The Lannisters had 'reasons' to take revenge on her, Ned had none in Theon's case. As I said, he was right until a point. But unlike Balon, Ser Rodrick was obligated to fight, no matter his daughter's life.

And it also sound like a fair deal to me to have Theon as a hostage so that his father will not raid the entire Western Coast. It is just the same as it was with nuclear weapons, as someone mentioned it. And people usually forget that nuclear weapona are a reason why there aren't so many wars nowadays.

[SeanF]

Do you mean factually right, or ethically right?

Factually, there is a basic similarity, in that threats to an innocent person are being used to coerce others.

Ethically, no.  Theon is retaliating against a  third party who played no part in his being a hostage.  In addition, he betrayed a man to whom he swore allegiance.  In addition, threats to young girls violate the moral code of his world.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In addition, threats to young girls violate the moral code of his world.

Threats to young boys like Theon however are perfectly fine

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Threats to young boys like Theon however are perfectly fine

That’s the flip side of a sexist society.  Sometimes it works against men and boys.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Threats to young boys like Theon however are perfectly fine

That’s the flip side of a sexist society.  Sometimes it works against men and boys.

I was being sarcastic. You know full well girls are takes as hostages just as often as boys. Take Alysanne Osgrey for example.

[Bullrout]

Hostages are insurance against unwanted behavior.  Do the unwanted and the person of value dies.  The Starks and Theon wanted to discourage another party from acting against them.  Hostages were the tools they had.  Either way, it sucked for the hostages.  It's the same even if the unwanted behavior is different.  Ned Stark would kill Theon if Balon rebelled again. 

[sifth]

11 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Ned would've deffo killed Theon if he needed to. It was his duty, and a defiance to the king and a let down to his vassals to not kill him.

Ned walked away from his job as Hand of the King, when Robert wanted to send assassins to kill Dany. This is a man who lied to his king to save Jon's life. This is a guy who was willing to spare the life of Cercie and Joffrey. I think there's quite a lot of evidence to think he wouldn't kill Theon. Heck Ned was supper pissed after what happened to Rhaegar's kids and only made up with Robert, because of the two of them mutually morning for his sisters death. Let's be real, Ned was a good person and I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he wouldn't.

[frenin]

19 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So one of the things that is a bit unnerving I think in ACOK, is before the battle of Wintertown, Theon has a noose around Beth Cassel's neck, threatening her father to hang her if he attacks. When Rodrick confronts him about this, Theon asks how exactly is this different from how he was treated. And like the disturbing thing is, he's right. It's a pretty nasty showing of just how fucked up the whole hostages/wards thing really is. So anyways, what do you think about this scene? Was Theon right?

In a sense yes, he was there just to assure his father's well behaviour. In another sense no, he was given a place in the table and he grew up with his captor's children, which is something you do not do if you're just waiting to kill him.

 

 

15 hours ago, Jay21 said:

Sure he was right.  That's exactly what he was taken for.  We can take from Balon's obedience in the years since his first rebellion that he had no doubt in Stark's resolve.  .

We can take Balon's obedience as sign that he for sure knew that he would be crushed to death this time had he rebelled against the throne again. Which is why he did once the realm was fragmented.

Ned would  have never harmed kid Theon, not for Robert not for anyone, adult Theon on the other hand...