Was Theon right concerning Beth Cassel?

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Then they should have punished Balon. Theon was as blameless as Beth Cassel, and he was used in the exact same way. What does it matter Balon was an aggressive asshole, while Rodrick was a loyal bloke. Their children were used the same and were as equally blameless regardless.

Balon is punished by taking his heir. Starting stupid wars of aggression like the one happily joined is the reason why he got taken in the first place and the reason he lost his dick later.

I'm telling, it's similar, it's not quite the same. Theon is also taken away and raised as a greenlander to one day take the Throne as a loyal pawn. Not quite the same anyway very similar.

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

 

[CamiloRP]

20 minutes ago, sifth said:

So for the record, you can't give me an example of Ned killing an innocent person when ordered to? I mean I gave you 3 examples of when he openly refused to take part in the death of an innocent life. All you have to stand on is a vague line of Ned telling Cat to "keep Theon close", which, you interpret as Ned telling her "be prepared to kill Theon if Balon doesn't do what I want". Yea, that totally sounds like Ned Stark to me, lol

well, you haven't answered to half the things I said, just repeated the same question over and over. No. You know there are n examples of Ned killing an innocent. There were no examples of Theon betraying the Starks until he did, nor there were examples of Arya killing anyone until she did. There are two phrases in my language: 'There's a first time for everything.' And 'Nobody dies twice.' Ned never killing an innocent isn't proof that he wouldn't kill an innocent. Or else all defense lawyers would go 'well, mi client has never done a crime previous to this, therefore, he's innocent.' Also he, arguably, killed an innocent (Gared) because it was the law. And the king's word is law too.

Also, those examples you gave were of children and women, Theon is neither. 

But anyhow, you're being rude, to say the least, and I don't care to keep talking to you if you're gonna be like that.

[sifth]

15 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

well, you haven't answered to half the things I said, just repeated the same question over and over. No. You know there are n examples of Ned killing an innocent. There were no examples of Theon betraying the Starks until he did, nor there were examples of Arya killing anyone until she did. There are two phrases in my language: 'There's a first time for everything.' And 'Nobody dies twice.' Ned never killing an innocent isn't proof that he wouldn't kill an innocent. Or else all defense lawyers would go 'well, mi client has never done a crime previous to this, therefore, he's innocent.' Also he, arguably, killed an innocent (Gared) because it was the law. And the king's word is law too.

Also, those examples you gave were of children and women, Theon is neither. 

But anyhow, you're being rude, to say the least, and I don't care to keep talking to you if you're gonna be like that.

Not exactly sure how I'm being rude. I mean you're the one using conjecture as proof.

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Not exactly sure how I'm being rude. I mean you're the one using conjecture as proof.

Your's isnt conjecture then? Everyone (Theon and Cat included) expected Ned to kill Theon if he needed. 

[Seams]

8 hours ago, sifth said:

I honestly think they should have taken both Asha and Theon from Balon. That is only if keeping Balon as lord of the Iron Islands was a must. If not, I would have stripped him of all power and placed the Reader in charge in his place.

This is an important point. We know that Balon invests in Asha as his heir after Theon is taken away. Theon and the Starks believe that Theon is still the heir to the Iron Islands, but Balon has moved on and has a diminished stake in what happens to Theon. 

By the time Theon returns to the Iron Islands with a proposal to betray Robb, Balon already has advanced plans to invade the west coast of Westeros. These plans (including building more ships) must have been under way well before Theon was sent by Robb to try to secure his father's support for Robb's battle plans. 

From a symbolism perspective, we might want to consider the collapse of Pyke and the erosion of the ground on which it sits. Theon's older brothers are killed by a collapsing wall during the invasion of Pyke. As cited earlier in this thread, Theon's mother gets bridge splinters in her feet from walking around looking for her missing sons. (Bridges are important symbols, too. The fact that this bridge seems to be disintegrating may be a sign that few people will be able to cross over to Pyke or House Greyjoy as the deterioration continues.) 

I think we are supposed to compare the mutilation of Theon to the crumbling of Pyke and/or the destruction of Winterfell. Or maybe the deaths of his brothers, Maron and Rodrik, represent the crumbling of Pyke: it's too late to save that eroding castle by the time Theon is taken to Winterfell. If I were trying to explain Asha's role in this metaphor, I might surmise that she represents ships of the Iron Islands instead of the castle. The ships are still in good shape. 

Similarly, Beth Cassell may represent the castle of Winterfell, just as Jeyne Poole represents the sacred pool in the Winterfell gods wood. (Sorry, I am a broken record on these symbols.) When Theon takes possession of Winterfell, he shows Ser Rodrick that he has taken possession of Beth. Later, he takes possession of Jeyne and helps her escape the Boltons. Significantly, he takes her over the wall of the castle, the same way the Ironborn entered when they invaded. 

But Theon doesn't destroy Winterfell, in spite of his threat against Beth. Ramsay does burn the castle. In fact, I think Theon's takeover of Winterfell saves the lives of Bran and Rickon because it allows them to hide and subsequently escape. If the Boltons had been able to invade before Theon's arrival, the younger Stark children would surely be dead. Theon is saving House Stark.

Also significant in the symbolism is Lady Dustin asking Theon to take her into the crypt at Winterfell. She is sort of like the Good Witch Glinda telling Dorothy to click the heels of her ruby slippers if she wants to go home. She helps Theon to rediscover his power by telling him that he is the only person who knows how to get into the crypt, which has not been looted or destroyed by the Boltons. He rediscovers his name while he is in the crypt and remembers that he wanted to be a Stark. 

So I think the comparison of hostage Theon with hostage Beth is appropriate. They may both represent castles. In fact, they may both represent Winterfell. 

P.S. Palla, daughter of Winterfell kennelmaster Farlen, should also be considered alongside Beth Cassell and Jeyne Poole. She is raped by Ironmen but Theon punishes the Ironmen who harm her. I assume the kennel symbolism relates to the direwolves, but there could be Clegane (dog sigil) symbolism. Palla's suffering is definitely foreshadowing of Ramsay with his pack of hunting dogs and his sick practice of hunting women. 

[Mad King Bolton]

On 2/6/2021 at 3:59 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think it matters. Sure Ned is an exceptional case, and given what we know of him, odds are he wouldn't have done it, but it doesn't really change either the institution, or how Theon and his family felt.

What's more, Ned's intentional distance from Theon, which he didn't have even with Jon, seems to suggest Ned might just have done it.

Tough call.  Ned's got a thing against harming children from the actions of parents.  I doubt he'd have killed Theon.  He would be compelled to do it but not necessarily honour bound.  There isn't a law that says you have to  kill the hostages, it's a threat.  So if the people in question still raise arms, then you have a choice to take action how you will.  I think Ned would realize that if Balon still raised up despite Theon being a hostage/ward, it would be an indication that he doesn't give a shit, not that he's trying to call Ned's bluff.  

True, Ned was chill against Theon and rightly so.  He treated Theon cooly and at a distance because he wasn't family and everyone needed to know that, but still raised him as well as possible under the circumstances.  Many other houses may have been warmer and Theon may have loved them more, but the Starks do carry a bit of the ol' tough love way of things and despite Theon's horrible actions, the fact that he's conflicted and torn the entire time (well entire time he's not in the sack with some girl) shows that the Starks meant something to him.

Lastly to the original post, I think Theon is wrong because Balon gave Theon to the Starks and agreed to disarm and cease.  Theon was a symbol of that agreement.  Rodrick did not agree to anything and didn't give Beth to Theon, so he's duty bound to take the castle and despite Beth.  So, Theon is trying to trap him but I believe Theon knew he this likely wouldn't stop him, but was desperate since they were outmanned.  Sorry if I missed something you said to dispute this already.

[Daeron the Daring]

15 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Robert doesn't care either when he gives Theon to Ned

Altough Robert was careless and a bad king, his advisors did care about the people and the kingdom, and that was enough.

[Daeron the Daring]

7 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

Tough call.  Ned's got a thing against harming children from the actions of parents.  I doubt he'd have killed Theon.  He would be compelled to do it but not necessarily honour bound.  There isn't a law that says you have to  kill the hostages, it's a threat.

We don't know if there is such a lae, or not, and how much people consider it seriously. The thing is, as the story went on, it was said several times that Theon was given to Ned Stark as a ward, to execute him the moment his father rebels. If not, that would be betrayal to the IT and his vassals too.

You imagine that the IT just gave him Theon, giving him no instructions? He likely had to swear to Robert that he'll kill the boy when/if the time comes. I doubt Theon would've ended up with Ned if Ned said he'll be unable to kill him.

7 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

I think Ned would realize that if Balon still raised up despite Theon being a hostage/ward, it would be an indication that he doesn't give a shit, not that he's trying to call Ned's bluff.  

This is a big 'whatif' that never happened. And never happened for a simple reason: The entire realm knew that Eddard Stark was a honorable and dutiful man. A man you wouldn't play tricky games with. And Balon Greyjoy confirmed this. He did not rebel until the point he's got his son back, altough he prepared for it. 

The only probable situation where it would be evitable to execute Theon even if his father rebels, is that he grows so close to the Stark family and disowns his own and the Old Way. That never happened, and Ned Stark was cold to him for a simple reason: There might come a time he has to execute him. He knew it. Theon knew it. Ser Rodrick knew it. Catelyn knew it. The Stark children knew it. I don't get why it is so hard to realise it for some readers

[SeanF]

Whether Ned would execute Theon would depend most on pressure from his vassals, IMHO.  They won’t be too bothered if Balon attacks Lannisport.  But if, say, he attacks Bear Island or the Stony Shore, they’d want Ned to send him Theon’s head.  Ned could not afford to alienate his vassals.

Roose Bolton would probably favour sending Balon’s hide, but I doubt Ned would go that far.

[Daeron the Daring]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Whether Ned would execute Theon would depend most on pressure from his vassals, IMHO.  They won’t be too bothered if Balon attacks Lannisport.  But if, say, he attacks Bear Island or the Stony Shore, they’d want Ned to send him Theon’s head.  Ned could not afford to alienate his vassals.

Roose Bolton would probably favour sending Balon’s hide, but I doubt Ned would go that far.

Well, his own vassals wouldn't care too much about other lands, for sure, but they would still see it as a bad decision.

And remember that Theon Greyjoy wasn't his hostage after all. He was the hostage of the Iron Throne. He was given to Ned by the King, that means that he was responsible for the entire realm in the case the Ironborn are attacking. Tywin Lannister, Hoster Tully or Mace Tyrell would've had a word with him if he does not execute the boy when he has to.

[CamiloRP]

16 hours ago, sifth said:

Not exactly sure how I'm being rude. I mean you're the one using conjecture as proof.

Also, how is something stated in the books cinjecture?

[sifth]

22 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Also, how is something stated in the books cinjecture?

I simply asked for an example of Ned killing someone innocent and you provided non to counter the 3 examples I gave you of him going above and beyond to save people who were innocent. Heck he even offered to take care of Gendry as well.

I’m using the facts as they are presented, you are not and saying stuff like “maybe this time will be different”.  

[Mad King Bolton]

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

We don't know if there is such a lae, or not, and how much people consider it seriously. The thing is, as the story went on, it was said several times that Theon was given to Ned Stark as a ward, to execute him the moment his father rebels. If not, that would be betrayal to the IT and his vassals too.

True, but there are many hostages given during the story and I don't think we ever really get anyone following through on executions.  If Balon had revolted again, I'm sure Ned would have checked back in with the IT or been sent a raven with orders.  If given a direct order I wouldn't be surprised if Ned executed Theon, I don't however think he would have done it outright and possibly not when Theon was a child.  How did Ned react to Rhaegar's children being killed, how did he react years later at assassins sent after Dany, how did he react to the truth of Cersei's children?  Despite his duty, he still gave Cersei a shot at running away.  I do not believe Ned executes children. 

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You imagine that the IT just gave him Theon, giving him no instructions? He likely had to swear to Robert that he'll kill the boy when/if the time comes. I doubt Theon would've ended up with Ned if Ned said he'll be unable to kill him.

I disagree.  I think Ned got him because Ned could handle him and Robert may have assumed Ned would kill him if necessary, or like when Ned and Robert were to be executed on orders from the Mad King, maybe Robert just figured Ned would teach him better or was naive enough to think Balon would keep the peace after they demolished them.  as you argued above, we don't know.

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

This is a big 'whatif' that never happened. And never happened for a simple reason: The entire realm knew that Eddard Stark was a honorable and dutiful man. A man you wouldn't play tricky games with. And Balon Greyjoy confirmed this. He did not rebel until the point he's got his son back, altough he prepared for it. 

There's your own big what if.  That Balon didn't rebel again because Ned wasn't someone to play with.  Balon didn't have opportunity to take up arms again after being crushed by Robert and Ned.  Once Robert and Ned were dead however and the realm in chaos and the North undefended, then he took action.  When Theon arrived at the Iron Islands, things were already in motion.  It takes a long time to muster your forces and it wasn't done because Theon came home.  They didn't expect him.  So either Balon was prepared to lose Theon with Asha as a worthy successor, thought they'd get him back in their invasion, or he figured the deal changed when those that struck it with him were dead and Robb wouldn't execute Theon.  I'd say the first was most likely since their invasion was already planned and forces coming together before Theon was even on his way back.

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The only probable situation where it would be evitable to execute Theon even if his father rebels, is that he grows so close to the Stark family and disowns his own and the Old Way. That never happened, and Ned Stark was cold to him for a simple reason: There might come a time he has to execute him. He knew it. Theon knew it. Ser Rodrick knew it. Catelyn knew it. The Stark children knew it. I don't get why it is so hard to realise it for some readers

Some readers realize just fine what you're saying, but knowing and believing are not always the same thing and as shown above (at least in my eyes), there are possibilities that can be considered that are different from your opinions.  What I'm saying is mostly just opinion as well though, so don't take this as too hostile a disagreement.

[CamiloRP]

22 minutes ago, sifth said:

I simply asked for an example of Ned killing someone innocent and you provided non to counter the 3 examples I gave you of him going above and beyond to save people who were innocent. Heck he even offered to take care of Gendry as well.

I’m using the facts as they are presented, you are not and saying stuff like “maybe this time will be different”.  

You are either being disingenuous or not actually reading my replies.

Ned not killing someone innocent before (save Gared) doesn't mean he is unable to do so. He also never confessed to a crime he was innocent of... until he did. That argument has no logical weight. As I said before, every defense attorney would use it if it made sense 'My client never committed a crime before, so he must be innocent.' Furthermore, the examples you provided were women and children. Theon is neither a woman nor a child.

I also pointed out that everyone expected Ned to do so, including his wife and his hostage. While no one ever in the story things or says he wouldn't (so yeah, you're the one using conjecture as proof). 

I also mentioned the fact that he took on the job,if he didn't feel capable of doing it, he wouldn't have taken it. Ned doesn't make threats he doesn't plan on following. Which pairs nicely with another point I brought up, Ned told Cat to keep Theon close in case they needed the IB, he was planing on using him, how? by threatening his life.

I also mentioned how it would be treason to not kill Theon if Robert commanded.

And I brought up how if Balon attacked Ned's vassals and Ned didn't use Theon, his vassals would question his ability to rule. Add to that @Daeron the Daring's observation that Theon was the hostage of the crown, not of the North, and if the IB attacked another kingdom and Ned did nothing, the great lords would be really pissed off, which would likely have a repercussion in the North.

 

Now let's see what are your aguments, other than the already covered and meaningless 'he didn't do it before':

- He walked of as hand, which doesn't matter, as resigning a job is not illegal and it has happened before, while ignoring the king's express orders is treason.

- Robb's army didn't betray him when he rebelled against the IT, which is not comparable, as Robb was defending/avenging Northerners by doing that, while Ned not executing Theon in the face of an IB attack on the North would be not defending his vassals, the exact opposite.

- Dany's people didn't rebel when she didn't kill hostages, which is by far the best point you made, but still it's not the same, as Dany doesn't have vassals, she has followers that stay with her to remain free, if anything they would rebel when she allowed slavery to be brought back.

- The Lannister men didn't rebel when they didn't execute Sansa, which they couldn't have, because by the time Robb attacked, he already had a more important Lannister hostage.

And then you just ignored any of my arguments you couldn't argue against. Only repeating 'He has never done it' over an over, despite the fact that I explained both why that argument is flawed, and why those instances where different than Theon, which you again ignored.

[sifth]

55 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

You are either being disingenuous or not actually reading my replies.

Ned not killing someone innocent before (save Gared) doesn't mean he is unable to do so. He also never confessed to a crime he was innocent of... until he did. That argument has no logical weight. As I said before, every defense attorney would use it if it made sense 'My client never committed a crime before, so he must be innocent.' Furthermore, the examples you provided were women and children. Theon is neither a woman nor a child.

snip

Really Gared? The guy was a desert from the Watch and you consider him innocent, lol

We're told in dozens of Jon Snow chapters that if you desert the Watch the penalty is your life and you view Ned as killing a man who abandoned his post as innocent, lol. Gared had a duty to report what he saw to Lord Commander Mormont, not run from his post.

Also the Lannisters had Sansa way longer than the Starks had Jamie. They had plenty of time to kill her when Robb refused to stand down, both before Jamie's capture and way after his escape and still didn't.

Now I know you're just twisting the narrative to fit your view. But yet, maybe Ned could have killed Theon and maybe Joff could have turned into a nice guy had he lived a few more years, maybe Robb could have won the war of the five kings. This is how "maybe talk works buddy". Believe what you want man, but give how many people Ned has gone out of his way to help, the evidence clearly points in Ned not doing it.

[CamiloRP]

52 minutes ago, sifth said:

Really Gared? The guy was a desert from the Watch and you consider him innocent, lol

We're told in dozens of Jon Snow chapters that if you desert the Watch the penalty is your life and you view Ned as killing a man who abandoned his post as innocent, lol. Gared had a duty to report what he saw to Lord Commander Mormont, not run from his post.

Also the Lannisters had Sansa way longer than the Starks had Jamie. They had plenty of time to kill her when Robb refused to stand down, both before Jamie's capture and way after his escape and still didn't.

Now I know you're just twisting the narrative to fit your view. But yet, maybe Ned could have killed Theon and maybe Joff could have turned into a nice guy had he lived a few more years, maybe Robb could have won the war of the five kings. This is how "maybe talk works buddy". Believe what you want man, but give how many people Ned has gone out of his way to help, the evidence clearly points in Ned not doing it.

No, it doesn't as I stated above, but yeah, it's easy to claim whatever you want if you ignore what other people say. I should've guess you would do that tho, since you are ignoring several pars of the story just to suit your ideas.

[Daeron the Daring]

51 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

No, it doesn't as I stated above, but yeah, it's easy to claim whatever you want if you ignore what other people say. I should've guess you would do that tho, since you are ignoring several pars of the story just to suit your ideas.

@CamiloRP, you just answered every question in your last 2-3 replies. I don't see the point of further arguments. Only this, to @Mad King Bolton:

-You're wrong at the point you say Pike didn't know Theon was coming. They knew it, feom a letter sent by Theon.

-I again write down this question: Do you assume Ned Stark wouldn't have killed Theon if needed? The Ned Stark who's famous for being dutiful and honorable? Wouldn't it be betrayal to not do something he is commanded to do? If he's unable to do it, why didn't he oppose on having Theon his ward? Just like he did with sending assassins after Daenerys? Your argument clearly make no sense and are ignoring Ned Strak's characteristics.

-I never made a single what if in our discussion. I just told a variation of why things happened the was they did. That's not a what if simply because it might be that Balon did not raise his fleet to attack because of Ned Stark had him at Winterfell. And like it or not, this is by far the most likely variaton of why Balon never rebelled again.

And again, everyone on the entire Westerosi continent assumed Ned Stark would kill Theon if/when he has to. Only some readers disagree with it, those who think this actual fact harms the picture on what Ned Stark's character is portrayed, while it clearly doesn't.

[Mad King Bolton]

14 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

@CamiloRP, you just answered every question in your last 2-3 replies. I don't see the point of further arguments. Only this, to @Mad King Bolton:

-You're wrong at the point you say Pike didn't know Theon was coming. They knew it, feom a letter sent by Theon.

The time it takes to send a bird that you're coming is much shorter than calling your banners and drawing up a Northern invasion.  sorry to say but you're off there.

14 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

-I again write down this question: Do you assume Ned Stark wouldn't have killed Theon if needed? The Ned Stark who's famous for being dutiful and honorable? Wouldn't it be betrayal to not do something he is commanded to do? If he's unable to do it, why didn't he oppose on having Theon his ward? Just like he did with sending assassins after Daenerys? Your argument clearly make no sense and are ignoring Ned Strak's characteristics.

make no sense?  Let's try to have an objective discussion about the debate here and take the emotion down a bit on both sides.  I think my point is being missed here.  There's plenty of evidence that Ned abhors violence against children.  Plenty, that alone makes sense that he would be conflicted in executing Theon.  Also, when he takes Theon on as a ward, he may have felt that it would both serve to turn Theon from his ways over time, keep Theon from more manipulative or brutal options like Tywin.  Also keeping Theon in either the North, West, or the Reach makes the most sense since the Iron Islands tend to raid against the Western side of the continent (obviously). 

Ned disobeyed Robert more than anyone in violent actions especially against children, so it's not betrayal, it's point for discussion or Ned attempting to find another way.  If it came to war with the Iron Throne over not killing Theon Greyjoy when the Iron Islands raised arms again, then sure, I'd say Ned would be likely to kill Theon, but just don't say it makes NO sense.

14 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

-I never made a single what if in our discussion. I just told a variation of why things happened the was they did. That's not a what if simply because it might be that Balon did not raise his fleet to attack because of Ned Stark had him at Winterfell. And like it or not, this is by far the most likely variaton of why Balon never rebelled again.

a likely variation is still a what if. don't take it so personally.

14 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And again, everyone on the entire Westerosi continent assumed Ned Stark would kill Theon if/when he has to. Only some readers disagree with it, those who think this actual fact harms the picture on what Ned Stark's character is portrayed, while it clearly doesn't.

I don't have the direct references to what you're saying is assumed by everyone on the continent, but Ned is only alive in GoT and there are a limited number of POV characters who talked about Theon much less Ned's guarantee that he'll cut his head off the second Balon twitches.  So much assumption.  Try putting in an "in my opinion" or "I think" occasionally.  

[Mad King Bolton]

Jesus, how far off topic are we all at this point.  Just look at the original post.  Whomever is going to lash me for the last reply I made knock your socks off, I'm done with this thread.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

9 minutes ago, Mad King Bolton said:

Jesus, how far off topic are we all at this point.  Just look at the original post.  Whomever is going to lash me for the last reply I made knock your socks off, I'm done with this thread.

I mean, I don't think you were too far off. This thread is a strategic evaluation of whether it was better for Robb to attack Tywin or Jaime, and analyzing where the fault lay for the biggest losses of the Riverrun plan, and seeing if they were avoidable, makes perfect sense.