The Worst Thing

[Curled Finger]

ASOIAF takes place in a quasi medieval setting where people were considered much differently than our own current considerations.  We have made progress and enjoy the benefit of hundreds of years of hindsight in weighing the right and wrongness of events taking place in story.   I have read heated arguments over the worst things and experienced my own roiling nausea at events. There was an exceptional topic covering Hoster Tully's treatment of Lysa in the light of her pregnancy and the marrying of Jon Arryn and more than one outstanding discussion debating the pros and cons of Dany's crucifixion of the Mereneese masters.  Catelyn Tully's errors.  Cersei's betrayal of Lady Stokeworth to Qyburn.  The Hound running Mycah down was so well told from Ned's point of view I cannot help but feel disgusted at the act even though I have come to learn The Hound is not essentially a bad guy.   He did a terrible thing under the orders of his boss.   I still don't like it and find this act does influence my ideas about Sandor Clegane whether I like it or not.   Seems I can't help it.  Arya's later admission that she does not even recall Micha's face is most unsatisfying.   While this senseless murder of an innocent child sticks in my craw, it is not the worst I've read in ASOIAF.   What is the worst thing you have read in this dark dark tale?  Why? 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

It's hard, but I'd say Astapor's fate. It sounds like something from "The Terror" with the famine, disease and sheer apocalyptic insanity...

A few honorable mentions:

- Theon and Jeyne. I hope Ramsay gets burned by Stannis. Slowly. Barbeque style. It wouldn't be enough, but it's the best we can hope for. Flaying would be better, but I can't see who would do it.

- the 163 children. We can debate how just Dany's retribution was all day long (and we have), but what the masters did there, is only second to Astapor in the list of fucked up shit they did.

- Tysha. Jesus H Christ, did Tywin deserve his fate

- Everything Gregor Clegane. Constant undead servitude seems a pale punishment for what he did.

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It's hard, but I'd say Astapor's fate. It sounds like something from "The Terror" with the famine, disease and sheer apocalyptic insanity...

Ah geez Man, that is awful.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Layna's rape by the Mountain and his men, and the way Chiswyck laughed at it, like they did nothing wrong. We never met Layna or her father and brother who was killed by these savages, but that family always stuck with me. Maybe because the description of what happened to her and them was so vivid that I could picture the whole scene. Laughing about the rape of a 13 year old and the coldblooded murder of her brother who tried to protect her and the father who has to debase himself and thank these monsters was just beyond words.

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Layna's rape by the Mountain and his men, and the way Chiswyck laughed at it, like they did nothing wrong. We never met Layna or her father and brother who was killed by these savages, but that family always stuck with me. Maybe because the description of what happened to her and them was so vivid that I could picture the whole scene. Laughing about the rape of a 13 year old and the coldblooded murder of her brother who tried to protect her and the father who has to debase himself and thank these monsters was just beyond words.

That was so very bad--as you so eloquently state, beyond words.  

[CamiloRP]

Theon. I have a huge soft spot for this type of story (and I think GRRM does too, as he already wrote it with Slum in TAG) but the always happy and smiling person's spirit being completely destroyed always breaks me. A great dancer that can't dance anymore, someone with a pretty smile who smiles all the time and looses his teeth, someone who loves sex and no longer has a penis. It's to fucking sad. And on top of that, striping his identity from him. 

[Megorova]

I think that the worst thing in that world is that they don't value human life, at all. It means absolutely nothing to any of them. Even to "good" characters. Human life in that world is expendable, not something that they value or cherish. And it means nothing to them whether one person lost his/her life, or whether there was thousands or millions of lost lives.

For example, the final trial for Unsullied is too kill a baby. What is the purpose of that trial? To see whether the Unsullied can kill an innocent? Let's for a moment forget about moral aspect of that deed. That's still a waste of resources. If that baby lived, then he or she, even if for the rest of its life it remained just a slave, he/she still would have done lots of things, lots of work, would have brought lots of benefit to his/her master. To kill it is a waste. When there's 10.000 Unsullied, it means that they wasted 10.000 (small) people, just for the sake of their final trial.

When Stannis and his army attacked Mance's people, there was close to 100.000 wildlings. Many of them were killed, tramped by horses in that battle. Many of those that did managed to escape and scattered thru the woods, later died from cold, hunger, or were killed by White Walkers and the Others. Out of original 100 thousands, less than a few managed to survive. In those several days many many people died, dozens of thousands. But Stannis and his people, Jon and his people, none of them were horrified by what happened, by what they did. Selise and her people are aware that at Hardhome there are several thousands people, there are women and children amongst them, and they are dying, but they (Selise and Co) DON'T CARE. That's inhuman.

Dany wasn't worried much by what happened in Astapor and Yunkai, after she got what she wanted out of those cities. Neither was she worried when her husband started a war against Lhazar, and killed and enslaved thousands of people, just to buy a fleet for his army to cross The Narrow Sea, and to get Iron Throne for Dany. She didn't felt any pangs of conscience afterwards, even though it was her fault that all those people died.

Whenever people in that world have a large-scale conflict, they immediately go to war. They don't care that many people will die as result of that war. They don't care for people, they just don't value human life. Their moral development didn't went much further than a level of Neanderthals (cavemen).

I think that in ASOIAF GRRM did an overkill. He tried too hard to write characters in varying specters of gray. As result we have lots of grey, dark grey, and even absolutely morally "black" characters (such as Euron, the Mountain, Ramsay), but there's zero "white" characters. GRRM added Evil into the story, but haven't added there any Good. The Worst Thing in ASOIAF is that there's no Goodness in that world, no True Good and no Higher Moral. Love, friendship, compassion, honor, if life itself is expendable and has no value, then all of that is also meaningless. Is GRRM a pessimist? If that is so, then in promised by him bitter-sweet ending, there will be significantly more bitterness than sweetness. I'm worried that with ASOIAF's ending we will have an experience with a really bad taste a taste of bitter disappointment.

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think that the worst thing in that world is that they don't value human life, at all. It means absolutely nothing to any of them. Even to "good" characters. Human life in that world is expendable, not something that they value or cherish. And it means nothing to them whether one person lost his/her life, or whether there was thousands or millions of lost lives.

For example, the final trial for Unsullied is too kill a baby. What is the purpose of that trial? To see whether the Unsullied can kill an innocent? Let's for a moment forget about moral aspect of that deed. That's still a waste of resources. If that baby lived, then he or she, even if for the rest of its life it remained just a slave, he/she still would have done lots of things, lots of work, would have brought lots of benefit to his/her master. To kill it is a waste. When there's 10.000 Unsullied, it means that they wasted 10.000 (small) people, just for the sake of their final trial.

When Stannis and his army attacked Mance's people, there was close to 100.000 wildlings. Many of them were killed, tramped by horses in that battle. Many of those that did managed to escape and scattered thru the woods, later died from cold, hunger, or were killed by White Walkers and the Others. Out of original 100 thousands, less than a few managed to survive. In those several days many many people died, dozens of thousands. But Stannis and his people, Jon and his people, none of them were horrified by what happened, by what they did. Selise and her people are aware that at Hardhome there are several thousands people, there are women and children amongst them, and they are dying, but they (Selise and Co) DON'T CARE. That's inhuman.

Dany wasn't worried much by what happened in Astapor and Yunkai, after she got what she wanted out of those cities. Neither was she worried when her husband started a war against Lhazar, and killed and enslaved thousands of people, just to buy a fleet for his army to cross The Narrow Sea, and to get Iron Throne for Dany. She didn't felt any pangs of conscience afterwards, even though it was her fault that all those people died.

Whenever people in that world have a large-scale conflict, they immediately go to war. They don't care that many people will die as result of that war. They don't care for people, they just don't value human life. Their moral development didn't went much further than a level of Neanderthals (cavemen).

I think that in ASOIAF GRRM did an overkill. He tried too hard to write characters in varying specters of gray. As result we have lots of grey, dark grey, and even absolutely morally "black" characters (such as Euron, the Mountain, Ramsay), but there's zero "white" characters. GRRM added Evil into the story, but haven't added there any Good. The Worst Thing in ASOIAF is that there's no Goodness in that world. Love, friendship, compassion, honor, if life itself is expendable and has no value, then all of that is also meaningless. Is GRRM a pessimist? If that is so, then in promised by him bitter-sweet ending, there will be significantly more bitterness than sweetness. I'm worried that with ASOIAF's ending we will have an experience with a really bad taste a taste of bitter disappointment.

Oh Man the Unsullied.  That's some bad stuff right there.   The slaves taken from Hardhome.  Gads.

Take heart, Brienne is truly a good character and I would bookend her with both Davos and Sam, maybe Meera Reed, too.  There is is good in this ugliness.  All is not lost.  Maybe we will examine the best thing next to cheer you up.  

[Curled Finger]

31 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Theon. I have a huge soft spot for this type of story (and I think GRRM does too, as he already wrote it with Slum in TAG) but the always happy and smiling person's spirit being completely destroyed always breaks me. A great dancer that can't dance anymore, someone with a pretty smile who smiles all the time and looses his teeth, someone who loves sex and no longer has a penis. It's to fucking sad. And on top of that, striping his identity from him. 

Sometimes I feel very silly replying to all the posts, but all these posts have been reply worthy.   I actually quoted you and decided not to do it and here we meet again, my reply discipline hopelessly lost in your recounting of Theon's flaying of body and mind and soul.   I often equate Theon with Sansa when recounting those characters who really have paid for their stupidity or ill advised lusting.  That should speak more to the bone deep suffering these two share in their stories.  Yah, Camilo, Theon's care in Ramsay's hands is lousy damned bad.  All these years later I still hope all that tearing away at Theon produces a hero.  Theon not recovering a sense of self or making a really heroic really Stark loving move at some point would be worse than the torture.  

[CamiloRP]

21 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh Man the Unsullied.  That's some bad stuff right there.   The slaves taken from Hardhome.  Gads.

Take heart, Brienne is truly a good character and I would bookend her with both Davos and Sam, maybe Meera Reed, too.  There is is good in this ugliness.  All is not lost.  Maybe we will examine the best thing next to cheer you up.  

I was about to name all of them, also, I know that it isn't technically asoiaf, but Dunk is as hearth warming as there is. Ned also tried to be fully moral. Egg, Aemon, Luwin (assuming he's not manipulating anyone) Missandei, and I assume there's more.

@Megorova Cheer up bud.

[Sigella]

Pia. Plenty of things are just as bad, but the prevalence of real life Pias just make my blood run cold. 

[CamiloRP]

16 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Sometimes I feel very silly replying to all the posts, but all these posts have been reply worthy.   I actually quoted you and decided not to do it and here we meet again, my reply discipline hopelessly lost in your recounting of Theon's flaying of body and mind and soul. 

Just curious, what did I say that was so quotable?

 

Quote

 I often equate Theon with Sansa when recounting those characters who really have paid for their stupidity or ill advised lusting. 

Yeah, that's part of the reason why I find it so heartbreaking, but it doesn't make it more evil. How many times did you do something stupid, realized it was stupid and continued doing it because there was no way back? I did it hundreds of times as a teen, and that's what I see in Theon's fall. He wanted to impress a father that really didn't care about him, and he ended up betraying his friends and family. 

 

Quote

That should speak more to the bone deep suffering these two share in their stories.  Yah, Camilo, Theon's care in Ramsay's hands is lousy damned bad.  All these years later I still hope all that tearing away at Theon produces a hero.  Theon not recovering a sense of self or making a really heroic really Stark loving move at some point would be worse than the torture.  

Absolutely, that is the worst of all.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Take heart, Brienne is truly a good character

A real hero

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

both Davos and Sam, maybe Meera Reed

Meeras chill, never put in any wild positions though, Sams a decent guy too. Davos wants the realm to bend its neck to Stannis, so fuck him, imo

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Ned also tried to be fully moral. Egg, Aemon, Luwin (assuming he's not manipulating anyone) Missandei

I agree Ned tried to be moral but never tried to combat immorality, so once again fuck em. The maesters I dont trust, not did I feel Aemons handling of Monster and Maester.

Missandei is a child, but shes cool. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Egg

For a child, idk, hes a little too royal for me, hes mad cool but got flashes of worrisome behavior.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

What is the worst thing you have read in this dark dark tale?  Why? 

This

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Dunk is as hearth warming as there is.

I have a grand total of zero respect for knights and straight hatred for the seven white slaves. Dunk the lunk... You were the good one...

... Honorary mentions to Weasel, Tysha, Jeyne Poole and mostly the world that is Cersei Lannisters

 

"You have wasted my time and slain an innocent man. I should have your own heads off." But if she did, the next man might hesitate and let the Imp slip the net. She would pile dead dwarfs ten feet high before she let that happen.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Pia. Plenty of things are just as bad, but the prevalence of real life Pias just make my blood run cold. 

Yep.  

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Davos wants the realm to bend its neck to Stannis, so fuck him, imo

I agree Ned tried to be moral but never tried to combat immorality, so once again fuck em.

... Honorary mentions to Weasel, Tysha, Jeyne Poole and mostly the world that is Cersei Lannisters

 

"You have wasted my time and slain an innocent man. I should have your own heads off." But if she did, the next man might hesitate and let the Imp slip the net. She would pile dead dwarfs ten feet high before she let that happen.

That's what I was hoping to see; not just a modern reader's outrage at some gut wrenching scene, but the very wrong in this entire world.  You've got The Hound's ideas about knights.  The worst thing here is knowing the knights The Hound serves with are so deserving of his disdain.  Really, what is the difference between some great tourney knight and a basketball star?   A little indignant outrage never hurt anyone when the outraged are right, Brother. 

[Hugorfonics]

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's what I was hoping to see; not just a modern reader's outrage at some gut wrenching scene, but the very wrong in this entire world.

Word. Weasel to me, she came from nowhere and went back, is so heart wrenching because we can only guess on how many Weasels are hidden in the burrows. 

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

  You've got The Hound's ideas about knights. 

His honesty, outlook and perception cut deeper then the butchers boy

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

The worst thing here is knowing the knights The Hound serves with are so deserving of his disdain.

Exactly, and hes the fucking Hound lol

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Really, what is the difference between some great tourney knight and a basketball star?   A little indignant outrage never hurt anyone when the outraged are right, Brother. 

Good comparison! I was first introduced to knights when I read about King Arthurs court as a child, the bravery of Sir Lancelot, the honor of Sir Galahad, the wisdom of Percival and Boris. Knights should be the guardians of goodness which is why Ser Duncan depresses me so. 

Course ball players are not guardians but they remain heroic and idols, the NFLs Walter Payton award or the heroism of Colin Kapernick and them shows this. I mean, name any better person from history then Russel Wilson... Chad Wheeler? "Your still alive?"

Beyond egregious, Gregor who? Speaking of ex Gmen, Martellus Bennett, "Most of your favorite players aren’t good people"

Why? Are knights and ballplayers susceptible to CTE? Competition? False feeling of heroism? 

Its not a great look that chicken legged concussion is battling for the highest honor tomorrow with the bastard known as deflate gate. 

Oh honor! Always one step in front of morality

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

A real hero

Meeras chill, never put in any wild positions though, Sams a decent guy too. Davos wants the realm to bend its neck to Stannis, so fuck him, imo

I agree Ned tried to be moral but never tried to combat immorality, so once again fuck em. The maesters I dont trust, not did I feel Aemons handling of Monster and Maester.

Missandei is a child, but shes cool. 

For a child, idk, hes a little too royal for me, hes mad cool but got flashes of worrisome behavior.

This

I have a grand total of zero respect for knights and straight hatred for the seven white slaves. Dunk the lunk... You were the good one...

... Honorary mentions to Weasel, Tysha, Jeyne Poole and mostly the world that is Cersei Lannisters

 

"You have wasted my time and slain an innocent man. I should have your own heads off." But if she did, the next man might hesitate and let the Imp slip the net. She would pile dead dwarfs ten feet high before she let that happen.

Well, I don't disagree with you, fuck royalty and nobility, those aren't good people, ditto with people who get payed for violence. And also fuck people who stay put and do nothing. I'll give you all of that.

[CamiloRP]

57 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's what I was hoping to see; not just a modern reader's outrage at some gut wrenching scene, but the very wrong in this entire world.  You've got The Hound's ideas about knights.  The worst thing here is knowing the knights The Hound serves with are so deserving of his disdain.  Really, what is the difference between some great tourney knight and a basketball star?   A little indignant outrage never hurt anyone when the outraged are right, Brother. 

I see them more like cops, and fuuuuuuuuck cops.

[Hugorfonics]

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Well, I don't disagree with you, fuck royalty and nobility, those aren't good people, 

For the most part. I do not fault Tywin or Joffrey because of their birth, hate the game not the original sin. I do find it striking though that out of all lords of asoiaf the only ones I morally approve of, Edmure and Beric, gave up their lordship.

15 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

ditto with people who get payed for violence

I mean... War is wrong but sometimes inevitable. I dont automatically write off Robbs cavalry for example.

17 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And also fuck people who stay put and do nothing. I'll give you all of that.

Word, fuck the Ned. Fuck his stance on Lady, Mycha and Dany. Useless.

16 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I see them more like cops, and fuuuuuuuuck cops.

Defund the knights

[CamiloRP]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

For the most part. I do not fault Tywin or Joffrey because of their birth, hate the game not the original sin. I do find it striking though that out of all lords of asoiaf the only ones I morally approve of, Edmure and Beric, gave up their lordship.

I mean... War is wrong but sometimes inevitable. I dont automatically write off Robbs cavalry for example.

Word, fuck the Ned. Fuck his stance on Lady, Mycha and Dany. Useless.

Defund the knights

Preach!