The Worst Thing

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I'm going to throw in Lollys Stokeworth in this as well. A woman with a little girl's mind who is gang raped, gets pregnant, forced to carry the child of one of her rapists, receives zero sympathy for her plight. If there ever was a time to use a jug of moon tea, that was it. Then this poor girl is married off to Bronn who is planning on having children of his own with her. Talk about messed up. 

 

[Darth Sidious]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

ASOIAF takes place in a quasi medieval setting where people were considered much differently than our own current considerations.  We have made progress and enjoy the benefit of hundreds of years of hindsight in weighing the right and wrongness of events taking place in story.   I have read heated arguments over the worst things and experienced my own roiling nausea at events. There was an exceptional topic covering Hoster Tully's treatment of Lysa in the light of her pregnancy and the marrying of Jon Arryn and more than one outstanding discussion debating the pros and cons of Dany's crucifixion of the Mereneese masters.  Catelyn Tully's errors.  Cersei's betrayal of Lady Stokeworth to Qyburn.  The Hound running Mycah down was so well told from Ned's point of view I cannot help but feel disgusted at the act even though I have come to learn The Hound is not essentially a bad guy.   He did a terrible thing under the orders of his boss.   I still don't like it and find this act does influence my ideas about Sandor Clegane whether I like it or not.   Seems I can't help it.  Arya's later admission that she does not even recall Micha's face is most unsatisfying.   While this senseless murder of an innocent child sticks in my craw, it is not the worst I've read in ASOIAF.   What is the worst thing you have read in this dark dark tale?  Why? 

 

Jon's betrayal of the Night's Watch is without doubt the worst.  The Night's Watch and the Wall are what stands between the existential threat and the living.  Jon undermined the Night's Watch to save Arya.  More specifically, he mistakenly believed Arya was in Winterfell and he pulled the Night's Watch into conflict with Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  This very, very bad move on Jon's part will have negative consequences for everybody.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm going to throw in Lollys Stokeworth in this as well. A woman with a little girl's mind who is gang raped, gets pregnant, forced to carry the child of one of her rapists, receives zero sympathy for her plight. If there ever was a time to use a jug of moon tea, that was it. Then this poor girl is married off to Bronn who is planning on having children of his own with her. Talk about messed up. 

 

Yah and I can't imagine any way in which anything works out well for Lollys.  Horrible addition, thank you.  

[Curled Finger]

34 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Jon's betrayal of the Night's Watch is without doubt the worst.  The Night's Watch and the Wall are what stands between the existential threat and the living.  Jon undermined the Night's Watch to save Arya.  More specifically, he mistakenly believed Arya was in Winterfell and he pulled the Night's Watch into conflict with Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  This very, very bad move on Jon's part will have negative consequences for everybody.

The entire Nights Watch story is pretty messed up.  That Jon or Bowen Marsh for that matter would have to take their loyalties to such extremes turns loyalty on it's bleeding ear.  Ideals over realities.  Hard situations.  Impossible situations.  

[Aebram]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that in ASOIAF GRRM did an overkill. He tried too hard to write characters in varying specters of gray. As result we have lots of grey, dark grey, and even absolutely morally "black" characters (such as Euron, the Mountain, Ramsay), but there's zero "white" characters. GRRM added Evil into the story, but haven't added there any Good.

I don't think the picture is as dark as that. Others have mentioned Davos, Sam, and Brienne as being on the side of Good. I would also add Ned Stark; he may have been politically naive, but he always tried to do the right thing. And let's not forget Ser Barristan Selmy, one of my favorite characters. I love that scene where Dany confronts both him and Jorah Mormont about their hidden agendas. Jorah gets all defensive, but Barristan is calmly willing to accept whatever fate his queen hands him. He even makes a little joke about being made her cook and roasting ducks over a campfire. Classic!

Getting back to the original topic of the Worst Thing... Does Euron Greyjoy count as a "Thing?" I thought Ramsay Bolton was pretty horrible, but Euron makes him look like a mere amateur.

[KingintheNorth4]

The Sack of Saltpans comes to mind. What Rorge and those other festering pieces of shit did to that twelve year old girl, horrible isn't strong enough of a word to describe it.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Aebram said:

I don't think the picture is as dark as that. Others have mentioned Davos, Sam, and Brienne as being on the side of Good. I would also add Ned Stark; he may have been politically naive, but he always tried to do the right thing. And let's not forget Ser Barristan Selmy, one of my favorite characters. I love that scene where Dany confronts both him and Jorah Mormont about their hidden agendas. Jorah gets all defensive, but Barristan is calmly willing to accept whatever fate his queen hands him. He even makes a little joke about being made her cook and roasting ducks over a campfire. Classic!

Getting back to the original topic of the Worst Thing... Does Euron Greyjoy count as a "Thing?" I thought Ramsay Bolton was pretty horrible, but Euron makes him look like a mere amateur.

I was waiting for some really disorienting supernatural thing--maybe flesh eating trees--but yes Euron definitely counts as a worse thing.  I'm hard pressed for a big bad beyond Euron outside the Others.  Aeron's memories and hallucinations are horrifying and all at his brother's hands.  I won't quip with something cute here.  The Greyjoys are a scary bunch, but Euron is what I imagine truly mad people are.   Good call in my book.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, KingintheNorth4 said:

The Sack of Saltpans comes to mind. What Rorge and those other festering pieces of shit did to that twelve year old girl, horrible isn't strong enough of a word to describe it.

Made my skin crawl just reading what you wrote.  It was not war that broke men like Rorge.  In the Riverlands war became a vast opportunity for really awful people to outdo each other in levels of atrocity.  The Saltpans are a dark dark reminder of how opportunists find their niches.  

[Nathan Stark]

Septon Utt. Ugh. That whole subplot was horrible and the worst.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Jon's betrayal of the Night's Watch is without doubt the worst.  The Night's Watch and the Wall are what stands between the existential threat and the living.  Jon undermined the Night's Watch to save Arya.  More specifically, he mistakenly believed Arya was in Winterfell and he pulled the Night's Watch into conflict with Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  This very, very bad move on Jon's part will have negative consequences for everybody.

Wait, wait, let me try this too!!

Dany's betrayal of Meereen is without doubt the worst. Meereen is what stands between the slavers and the slaves. Dany undermined Meereen to save Drogon. More specifically, she mistakenly believed a fire breathing monster should be allowed to eat people in peace and she pulled Meereen into conflict with Yunkai. This very, very bad move on Dany's part will have negative consequences for everybody.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Made my skin crawl just reading what you wrote.  It was not war that broke men like Rorge.  In the Riverlands war became a vast opportunity for really awful people to outdo each other in levels of atrocity.  The Saltpans are a dark dark reminder of how opportunists find their niches.  

Damn, I forgot about that. Well I guess Astapor now has competitions.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

8 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Jon's betrayal of the Night's Watch is without doubt the worst.  The Night's Watch and the Wall are what stands between the existential threat and the living.  Jon undermined the Night's Watch to save Arya.  More specifically, he mistakenly believed Arya was in Winterfell and he pulled the Night's Watch into conflict with Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  This very, very bad move on Jon's part will have negative consequences for everybody.

The entire Nights Watch story is pretty messed up.  That Jon or Bowen Marsh for that matter would have to take their loyalties to such extremes turns loyalty on it's bleeding ear.  Ideals over realities.  Hard situations.  Impossible situations.  

I mean Jon was doing what was needed to save the realm and ensure the wildlings garrison the Wall and that they stand a chance. Without him the Wall would have fallen by the end of ADWD

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Two things stand out as really bad. 

1. The killings of the slave children by the masters of Meereen.  It was a war crime.  The masters intended to intimidate the liberator, Daenerys Targaryen.  They murdered the slave children and lined the road with their corpses.  Daenerys had every right to punish the masters for this crime.
2. Arya's murder of Dareon.  The poor young man was twice victimized.  I already explained that in a previous post. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

27 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The killings of the slave children by the masters of Meereen.  It was a war crime.  The masters intended to intimidate the liberator, Daenerys Targaryen.  They murdered the slave children and lined the road with their corpses.  Daenerys had every right to punish the masters for this crime.

Isn't it more a crime against humanity by current definitions? Regardless I do agree it ranks among the highest stuff in the fucked up shit in the books. Still I think what the masters did to Astapor is worse.

28 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Daenerys had every right to punish the masters for this crime.

I would say she had every right to punish the guilty, not to punish the masters.

28 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Arya's murder of Dareon.  The poor young man was twice victimized.  I already explained that in a previous post. 

Oh for fucks sake. We can debate that all day long, and I do agree it was wrong of Arya to do it, but fucking hell man, compare this to the rest of the fucked up shit in this world. This doesn't belong on this thread, alongside shit like the cruxifiction, Gregor Clegane, mass war crimes, and other such stuff. Daeron is simple vigilante "justice".

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Wait, wait, let me try this too!!

Quote

"What is it?" Dany asked. "Do you have some grievance to lay before us, some petition? What would you have of us?"
His tongue flicked nervously over chapped, cracked lips. "I … I brought …"
"Bones?" she said, impatiently. "Burnt bones?"
He lifted the sack, and spilled its contents on the marble.
Bones they were, broken bones and blackened. The longer ones had been cracked open for their marrow.
"It were the black one," the man said, in a Ghiscari growl, "the winged shadow. He come down from the sky and … and …"
No. Dany shivered. No, no, oh no.
"Are you deaf, fool?" Reznak mo Reznak demanded of the man. "Did you not hear my pronouncement? See my factors on the morrow, and you shall be paid for your sheep."
"Reznak," Ser Barristan said quietly, "hold your tongue and open your eyes. Those are no sheep bones."
No, Dany thought, those are the bones of a child.

This one too.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

11 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

This one too.

In all fairness, that wasn't really her fault. She had no idea Drogon could eat humans too, there was nobody there to teach her, and she did act on it immediately (she might have gone overkill, but that's a different matter).

Her leaving Astapor and Yunkai to their own devices, leading the Yunkish picking slavery back immediately after she left and Astapot getting Naking-ed however...

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean Jon was doing what was needed to save the realm and ensure the wildlings garrison the Wall and that they stand a chance. Without him the Wall would have fallen by the end of ADWD

This isn't for weighing one character's decisions against another.  Just the overall story.   We all have opinions and there is lots to have opinions about in this.   Peace, Brother.  

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

In all fairness, that wasn't really her fault. She had no idea Drogon could eat humans too, there was nobody there to teach her, and she did act on it immediately (she might have gone overkill, but that's a different matter).

 She had him untrained and free. She couldn't imagine that leaving a monster free would result at people dying? Is she that clueless?

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Her leaving Astapor and Yunkai to their own devices, leading the Yunkish picking slavery back immediately after she left and Astapot getting Naking-ed however...

I do agree that the Danapocalypse of Slaver's Bay is much worse.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

 She had him untrained and free. She couldn't imagine that leaving a monster free would result at people dying? Is she that clueless?

I mean not really. He had shown, I think, a taste for muton, and humans, especially children are not very good for feeding. Far more important, the last person to have seen a dragon was dead for a hundred years at that point, and nobody in Dany's entourage read any dragon books. They were flying blind, with only some hearsay telling them what to do.

[Curled Finger]

@The Lord of the Crossing, @Alyn Oakenfist & @Lilac & Gooseberries

Easy peace to you all.  I read much more than post around here and am acquainted with most of your stances on the long running Dany/Jon debates.   You are entitled to your opinions.    I'm looking for things here and though I am very grateful you've all weighed in, I'd like to stay on topic with the worst things instead of simply fighting.  It's sometimes a trigger to read something we don't agree with, but I ask you try here.  We won't get anywhere in the debate in this conversation.  While Dany and Jon's actions have far reaching ramifications, are their actions really the worst things in this story?  Where are the Vargo haters?  (Surely I am not alone in thinking Jamie mutilated and being forced to wear his rotting appendage around his neck is awful--or The Hound teaching a little girl the nuances of killing--or the Red freaking Wedding were all really moving and awful things.)  I would ask you compare your events of choice with an event like the Red Wedding, which no seems to have mentioned yet to see how the worst measures up.   We have only scratched the surface here.  Could you understand or forgive Theon's murder of the Miller's boys?  Aerys' intent to blow up Kings Landing?  The torture of the Blue Bard?  It's a long list and I'm sure you can add plenty I can't recall at the moment.