Moiraine Sedai Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Robert's Rebellion. Starting a rebellion to save two lives was arrogance that led to hundreds of thousands dying. The instability caused by the rebellion made the War Of The Five Kings possible. Some of you do not believe a Stark-Baratheon conspiracy was happening during the months leading up to Harrenhal. I do. I think the Starks and the Baratheons were up to no good. The gift of the blue rose was the Targaryen attempt to cockblock Rickard's wicked plan to oust the royal family from power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: I read much more than post around here and am acquainted with most of your stances on the long running Dany/Jon debates. I'd say it's a Dany/Stark debate, or if we consider pieces like the rebels are targets of divine retribution, a Dany vs the Starks, Lannsiters, Baratheons, Tullys, Arryns and Aegon debate. But I see your point. 19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: While Dany and Jon's actions have far reaching ramifications, are their actions really the worst things in this story? As I have said, definitely, 100%, NO! 19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Where are the Vargo haters? (Surely I am not alone in thinking Jamie mutilated and being forced to wear his rotting appendage around his neck is awful--or The Hound teaching a little girl the nuances of killing--or the Red freaking Wedding were all really moving and awful things.) I would ask you compare your events of choice with an event like the Red Wedding, which no seems to have mentioned yet to see how the worst measures up. We have only scratched the surface here. Could you understand or forgive Theon's murder of the Miller's boys? The torture of the Blue Bard? Here's the thing with all of there, and these. They're individual cases. What happened to all there people is awful, but it kinda pales in scale when compared even with the smallest battle in ASOIAF. If we want the worst thing, I think we have to look at things that happened to many, many people. So the choices, realistically are - battles - sacks - other forms of warfare - mass murder Which kinda narrows the picking list to: - All the battles, with the Blackwater being the worst for a number of reasons - The Sack of KL - The Burning of Saltpans - The Destruction of Astapor - The Burning of the Riverlands - The reaving of the Mander and Arbor - The Red Wedding - Aerys' wildfire plan - the 163 crucifixions. These are really the only one that have the scale necessary to get on this list, so excuse me if I react negatively to someone suggesting Arya killing Daeron is the worst thing in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 There are other worst things that come to my mind: The sad sad endings to Maesters Cressen, Leuwin and Aemon. Craster. Lady Stoneheart. Brienne's wounds, captivity, hanging and forced mission to betray Jamie. Ramsay's human hunting. Jeyne Poole. Lysa Arryn. Freaking Little Finger. The list can be endless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Besides Robert's Rebellion and almost as morally bad was the killing of the two farm boys. The two boys killed by the Ironborn as standins for Bran and Rickon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 8 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Robert's Rebellion. Starting a rebellion to save two lives was arrogance that led to hundreds of thousands dying. It was a war against tyranny. Such a war is always justified. 8 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: he instability caused by the rebellion made the War Of The Five Kings possible. Yes and no. I'd argue it wasn't the rebellion that fucked things, up but placing Robert on the Throne. The rebels should have deposed Aerys, maybe Rhaegar too (depending on what really happened with Lyanna), but not remove the Targaryen dynasty as a whole. That was what fucked things up. 10 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Some of you do not believe a Stark-Baratheon conspiracy was happening during the months leading up to Harrenhal. I do. I mean, dollars to donuts, Ned and Robert where the only ones unaware, but I see your point. I do agree something was happening, but I don't think it was an anti Targ but rather an anti Aerys conspiracy. Hard to say however, as Jon taking Robert and seemingly indulging him seems to suggest he wanted to make him King. 12 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: The gift of the blue rose was the Targaryen attempt to cockblock Rickard's wicked plan to oust the royal family from power. Jaime's appointment as a Kingsguard and Rickard's executions can indeed be somewhat explained by Aerys acting against a threatening powerblock, but Rhaegar and Lyanna was pure foolishness. If they did do it to fuck up the STAB alliance, then why not make it public? Why not take Lyanna as a an open mistress/paramour/second wife, instead of going away to a God forsaken tower in Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Besides Robert's Rebellion and almost as morally bad was the killing of the two farm boys. The two boys killed by the Ironborn as standins for Bran and Rickon. Again, don't you think two deaths pale in comparison to literally every battle in ASOIAF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I'd say it's a Dany/Stark debate, or if we consider pieces like the rebels are targets of divine retribution, a Dany vs the Starks, Lannsiters, Baratheons, Tullys, Arryns and Aegon debate. But I see your point. As I have said, definitely, 100%, NO! Here's the thing with all of there, and these. They're individual cases. What happened to all there people is awful, but it kinda pales in scale when compared even with the smallest battle in ASOIAF. If we want the worst thing, I think we have to look at things that happened to many, many people. So the choices, realistically are - battles - sacks - other forms of warfare - mass murder Which kinda narrows the picking list to: - all the battles, with the Blackwater being the worst for a number of reasons - The Sack of KL - The Burning of Saltpans - The Destruction of Astapor - The Burning of the Riverlands - The reaving of the Mander and Arbor - Aerys' wildfire plan - the 163 curcifixions. These are really the only one that have the scale necessary to get on this list, so excuse me if I react negatively to someone suggesting Arya killing Daeron is the worst thing in the story. Certainly the most casualties argument carries a great deal of weight. There are single characters who will or have impacted smaller groups of people within their plots. How does Stannis put it? "what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" ASOS Davos V How come the Red Wedding didn't make your list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Just now, Curled Finger said: How come the Red Wedding didn't make your list? Forgot that it was more than just the wedding guests. I'll add it now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Wait, wait, let me try this too!! Dany's betrayal of Meereen is without doubt the worst. Meereen is what stands between the slavers and the slaves. Dany undermined Meereen to save Drogon. More specifically, she mistakenly believed a fire breathing monster should be allowed to eat people in peace and she pulled Meereen into conflict with Yunkai. This very, very bad move on Dany's part will have negative consequences for everybody. It is a fun game, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 8 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Besides Robert's Rebellion and almost as morally bad was the killing of the two farm boys. The two boys killed by the Ironborn as standins for Bran and Rickon. Thank you so much for bringing in a massive and very intimate worst thing. There are levels to worst and I think your short post encapsulates the gravity of what I was trying to get to in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Just now, Curled Finger said: Thank you so much for bringing in a massive and very intimate worst thing. There are levels to worst and I think your short post encapsulates the gravity of what I was trying to get to in the OP. I don't know, I think the books emphasis is on war as the worst thing, not individual crimes. I think one of GRRM's main points with Robb's story is to prove that war is a greater horror than any individual crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Aegon's conquest, burning thousands of men alive in just one battle, it was a big as war, and the result of it? Conquest, preventing freedom and placing a racist regime in charge of a continent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said: I don't know, I think the books emphasis is on war as the worst thing, not individual crimes. I think one of GRRM's main points with Robb's story is to prove that war is a greater horror than any individual crime. An individual will feel a personal loss deeply while all people will suffer some effect of these larger losses. I'm asking myself if Jamie thinks more about his hand or being taken as a POW. Certainly ASOIAF is ultimately an anti war tale. The orphanage that was the Inn at the Crossing and the Broken Men all attest to this. These phenomenon are consequences of war even though they occur after the war or their part in a war is done. While I can agree that the mass losses matter on many scales, it's obvious that many are moved by the horror stories that are the more personal. I haven't read a post here that didn't make me really think about how bad X event was. I think of it as keys on a piano. There is a song but it isn't made without the pressing of many keys in many ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 1 minute ago, CamiloRP said: Aegon's conquest, burning thousands of men alive in just one battle, it was a big as war, and the result of it? Conquest, preventing freedom and placing a racist regime in charge of a continent. Great call. Although I wonder if it's really racist since Jaehaerys established the doctrine of exceptionalism which allowed the Faith to put them above the laws of the place the ruled. Tongue firmly planted in cheek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: it was a big as war, and the result of it? Conquest, preventing freedom and placing a racist regime in charge of a continent. I mean it did have good outcomes. - The cessation of the state of constant war before the conquest - The creation of a unified code of laws - The massive expansion of trade allowing Westeros to double in population under Jaehaerys and alleviate hunger in the North. Also weren't you supposed to be the optimistic moderate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedBear Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 - The 13 year old girl who is raped by Gregor and his soldiers after Gregor be defeat in the tournament. It was one of the most difficult things to read. - All the atrocities of Ramsay - The slave children killed by the masters to provoke Dany. - The two little boys killed by Theon to pretend they were Bran and Rickon - Tysha rape by Tywin's soldiers. - Murder of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 25 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I mean it did have good outcomes. - The cessation of the state of constant war before the conquest - The creation of a unified code of laws - The massive expansion of trade allowing Westeros to double in population under Jaehaerys and alleviate hunger in the North. Also weren't you supposed to be the optimistic moderate? Hey, don't typecast me. I dislike the word moderate, I mean, I think it makes no sense to be a dick to someone just because they're being a dick to you, but that doesn't mean I'm a moderate. When the right issue comes, we should all be radicals, moderation is only a tool of the invisible oppression, it's a tool that aids the status quo, and fuck that. And yeah, Aegon's conquest had some good side effects, but I was reading @Curled Finger musings and your 'war is the ultimate evil' post and remembered how many fans in this forum seem to think monarchy, divine right, eugenics and conquest are positive things. And, well, that's the ultimate evil, you know, not even Aegon's conquest (tho it was awful imho), and I'm sorry if I sound like Britta Perry, but the system is the ultimate evil, with all the vagueness that it entails. A system that needs war, poverty, sexism and overall injustice to work. And not just monarchy, Esso's different systems are also fucked up, at least most of them. Othering, discrimination are the ultimate evil, the Starks think themselves better than the Lannisters, and that leads to war, the Lanisters believe themselves to be better than the Starks, the masters are better than the slaves, the Westerosi are better than the Freefolk, the lords are better than the smallfolk, the faith is better than all the other demons and pagans, R'lhor is the one true god, and the rest are servants of the Devil, the Targs are better than anyone else. I mean, we get a horrid tale about Tywin having a woman being raped dozens of times in one day, and what is the final gut punch? 'A Lannister is worth more.' And there's one more: the Others are worse than the Humans. They are all evil beings that want the apocalypse and the end of all life. We must surely bathe them in dragon fire, end their species, cause genocide and extinction in one glorious battle... right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: Septon Utt. Ugh. That whole subplot was horrible and the worst. Sorry I missed this. For anyone who has the search look it up if you don't recall Septon Utt. Sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Curled Finger said: How does Stannis put it? "what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" ASOS Davos V But how does Davos answer? 1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: - The Destruction of Astapor That was a good day. A lucky day. "It is a lucky name. The name this one was born to was accursed. That was the name he had when he was taken for a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one drew the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free." 50 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: When the right issue comes, we should all be radicals, moderation is only a tool of the invisible oppression, it's a tool that aids the status quo, I like this guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: 2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: - The Destruction of Astapor That was a good day. A lucky day. I'm not referring to Dany's Sack, mate I'm referring to Astapor's ultimate fate post Cleos, to the point that as of now Astapor, for all intents and purposes has ceased to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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