Jump to content

The Worst Thing


Curled Finger

Recommended Posts

35 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Thank you for adding the Red Wedding.   I wondered why no one mentioned that.  You've added those horrible pages we met Mirri Mas Dur in.  Definitely a fine listing of worst things.   Would you add the Faceless Men and their weird church of death in here anywhere? 

I don't particularly like the Faceless Men and I think they are a bad influence on Arya, but I don't see them as nearly bad enough to warrant inclusion on a list such as this.  They're just garden variety bad guys.

 

I would like to add:

Cersei's torture of the Blue Bard and the other entertainers. 

Everything Euron and Victarion do.

Harren-hell, especially the innkeepers daughter story and Roose Bolton's rape stocks.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Aerys did so many evil things your death of Brandon Stark shines the light on what may have been the true unveiling of the king.   Ghastly that. 

It's sometimes not the worst for someone because it's so bad, but because it was shocking. I mean, learning the trurt from Catelyn's POV made it so bad for me, along with the fact that Brandon died thanks to that thing while he tried to help Rickard.

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Jaehaera Targaryan, yah WOW...it's curious how these people of Westeros can outdo themselves in a thing as unnerving if not nauseating as half of the things that befell this young person.  Takes me even farther back to Helaena.   That's all bad all the way around.  Thank you for bringing up some completely day ruining stories from our book of horrors.  

Again, in this case too, it wasn't her death what made it the worst to me, but that how shockimg it was. You know, I tought it's, over and it's a great ending. And then we learn how she ended up in the moat of the spikes. And it's just horrible how she suffered for like 30 minutes there. At least for me.

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thank you for adding the Red Wedding.   I wondered why no one mentioned that. 

Mainly because most of the current posters on the forum saw the show before reading the books. I too read the books during the 2 year gap between S7 and S8. I tought I could find out the ending reading it (how dumb I was), but ended up loving the original story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Erasing some random African country will not hamper the wellbeing of the world, still it doesn't make it any less awful. Same here.

Astapor was a city filled with people. They're almost all dead now.

Firstly, I disagree. African culture is cool. Vibrant. Arts cool, food, music. I wish I knew more.

But more importantly they are not hazardous to humanity. Yea, thousands died, r.i.p. Its still good news.

For every unsullied created a baby is dead, for every 10k a warlord gets wings. Aspator was a factory filled with drivers, hopefully it remains ruinous forever

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Firstly, I disagree. African culture is cool. Vibrant. Arts cool, food, music. I wish I knew more.

But more importantly they are not hazardous to humanity. Yea, thousands died, r.i.p. Its still good news.

For every unsullied created a baby is dead, for every 10k a warlord gets wings. Aspator was a factory filled with drivers, hopefully it remains ruinous forever

Most people who were slaughtered by the Yunkish lords and their mercenaries at Astapor were freedmen.  8,000 Unsullied, 5,000 uncut boys, and 40,000 civilians left with Daenerys, and are presumably, mostly alive in Meereen. I don't know if that was a majority of the city's population or not, but the rest suffered hell on earth.

In response to the O/P, and some other comments,  I don't see war as the worst possible outcome.  I don't think that people were wrong to rebel against Aerys, even though the rebels' cause was tainted by atrocities.  I don't think Dany is wrong to strike a blow against the masters, despite the attendant violence.  A cruel peace can be worse than war. 

But, war can certainly allow the worst people to indulge their savagery, in ways that would get them hanged in peacetime.  If I had to choose the very worst, it would be collectively, the behaviour of the Bloody Mummers, Westeros's equivalent of the Dirlewanger SS Brigade or the Ustasha.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Most people who were slaughtered by the Yunkish lords and their mercenaries at Astapor were freedmen.  8,000 Unsullied, 5,000 uncut boys, and 40,000 civilians left with Daenerys, and are presumably, mostly alive in Meereen. I don't know if that was a majority of the city's population or not, but the rest suffered hell on earth.

In response to the O/P, and some other comments,  I don't see war as the worst possible outcome.  I don't think that people were wrong to rebel against Aerys, even though the rebels' cause was tainted by atrocities.  I don't think Dany is wrong to strike a blow against the masters, despite the attendant violence.  A cruel peace can be worse than war. 

But, war can certainly allow the worst people to indulge their savagery, in ways that would get them hanged in peacetime.  If I had to choose the very worst, it would be collectively, the behaviour of the Bloody Mummers, Westeros's equivalent of the Dirlewanger SS Brigade or the Ustasha.

The city is done

.

It was the Tattered Prince himself who did the speaking. "Orders have come down from Yurkhaz," he said. "What Astapori still survive have come creeping from their hidey-holes, it seems. There's nothing left in Astapor but corpses, so they're pouring out into the countryside, hundreds of them, maybe thousands, all starved and sick. The Yunkai'i don't want them near their Yellow City. We've been commanded to hunt them down and turn them, drive them back to Astapor or north to Meereen. If the dragon queen wants to take them in, she's welcome to them. Half of them have the bloody flux, and even the healthy ones are mouths to feed."

.

Im not sure how much the Aspatroi culture, minus the unsullied, has disappeared though since so many are now in Merreen. But really I cant tell the differences between Ghiscari culture anyway. Tokars and the Harpy. (Which isnt to say I can tell the difference between Andal culture)

 

The Brave Companions are pretty sickening, idk if theyre that worse then Gregors band, or Karstarks even

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Most people who were slaughtered by the Yunkish lords and their mercenaries at Astapor were freedmen.  8,000 Unsullied, 5,000 uncut boys, and 40,000 civilians left with Daenerys, and are presumably, mostly alive in Meereen. I don't know if that was a majority of the city's population or not, but the rest suffered hell on earth.

In response to the O/P, and some other comments,  I don't see war as the worst possible outcome.  I don't think that people were wrong to rebel against Aerys, even though the rebels' cause was tainted by atrocities.  I don't think Dany is wrong to strike a blow against the masters, despite the attendant violence.  A cruel peace can be worse than war. 

But, war can certainly allow the worst people to indulge their savagery, in ways that would get them hanged in peacetime.  If I had to choose the very worst, it would be collectively, the behaviour of the Bloody Mummers, Westeros's equivalent of the Dirlewanger SS Brigade or the Ustasha.

No war isn't the worst.  That's what I'm toying with here.  Not to detract from the horror of war or those who believe quantity = worst.    It's not a bad way to take an overall view of events.  War is the collective of all these smaller acts of cruelty and time and effort.  If you will, I would go back to 2 of the smaller atrocities mentioned before, the rape of the girl at the Crossroads and Septon Utt.  The individual victims are forever changed...perhaps into a Pretty Maris or Cersei Lannister.  What good could possibly come from any of these events?  What good could possibly come from the annihilation of Astapor or the Saltpans?   What will become of all these broken men and orphaned children?  Is cruel peace worth the cost? 

I would like to come up with a worst thing in this story, but I can't.  Your Bloody Mummers are usually pretty high on my list of awful, but so is Lady Stoneheart.  The worst is a moving target.

Thank you for your comments and sharing your thoughts on the worst here.   It's nice to know I'm reading all this heartbreaking soul sucking misery with clear headed folks.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"No man is more dangerous than the oathbreaker"

I am appalled by Arya Stark for murdering people.  I do not like her.  However, killing is pretty common and while it is reprehensible, the negative consequences do not usually lead to catastrophe.  I hate Arya for what she did to Dareon and the Insurance seller, but those acts will not lead to the collapse of Bravos.  It's the oathbreakers like Jon Snow and Robb Stark who are truly appalling to me.  Robb's ego almost broke Westeros apart.  The consequences of his bid to break the north away from Westeros is still causing problems.  Jon's crazy choices to put his duty behind his love for Arya will destroy the Night's Watch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, James West said:

It's the oathbreakers like Jon Snow and Robb Stark who are truly appalling to me.  Robb's ego almost broke Westeros apart.  The consequences of his bid to break the north away from Westeros is still causing problems.  Jon's crazy choices to put his duty behind his love for Arya will destroy the Night's Watch.

Daring today, aren't we?

First off, please remind me, who was it that started the civil war? Ah yeah, Tywin. Who was it that crowned Robb? Ah yeah his bannermen.

Second off, without Jon the Watch would be long since dead and buried.

Third off, please remind me, when exactly did Jon betray the Watch?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, James West said:

"No man is more dangerous than the oathbreaker"

I am appalled by Arya Stark for murdering people.  I do not like her.  However, killing is pretty common and while it is reprehensible, the negative consequences do not usually lead to catastrophe.  I hate Arya for what she did to Dareon and the Insurance seller, but those acts will not lead to the collapse of Bravos.  It's the oathbreakers like Jon Snow and Robb Stark who are truly appalling to me.  Robb's ego almost broke Westeros apart.  The consequences of his bid to break the north away from Westeros is still causing problems.  Jon's crazy choices to put his duty behind his love for Arya will destroy the Night's Watch.

The page folds again.  Nice nice nice nice inclusion of smaller worst actions that have unimaginable effects.   I am curious as to why Jamie Lannister didn't make your list of oathbreakers?  Bowen Marsh?  Daeron himself?  Walder Frey?  Was he right to go all in with the Red Wedding?   Did Robb's betrayal justify that?  

Betrayal is that dark place in a person's heart the betrayer may not actually see as though they are blinded by a higher good.   Though I understand the motives for Jon and Robb's actions--even Arya's--I can definitely zero in on Robb making an incredibly costly mistake in not honoring his bond to the Freys.  Terrible move, Robb.   I am hoping that part of Arya's adventures with the Faceless Men is to correct her whole I AM JUSTICE persona.   They do it for money and no other reason.  The many faced god does not judge.   Perhaps she isn't too far gone and will be able to see the lesson of training with assassins. 

Jon doesn't get a pass in this.   I just understand his disposition a little better is all.  Doesn't make either of us right.  Thank you for adding Robb and Arya's actions to the worst things list.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Daring today, aren't we?

First off, please remind me, who was it that started the civil war? Ah yeah, Tywin. Who was it that crowned Robb? Ah yeah his bannermen.

Second off, without Jon the Watch would be long since dead and buried.

Third off, please remind me, when exactly did Jon betray the Watch?

I blame Cat for starting the war though I know it was Littlefinger, for all that's worth.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Curled Finger said:

I blame Cat for starting the war though I know it was Littlefinger, for all that's worth.  

I mean, Cat certainly did the big stupid, but she didn't actually start a war. Tywin should have tried acting though the King, or demanded Tyrion be returned and compensation be given. As it was, he started an unprovoked war and broke the King's Peace. He was the one that started it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean, Cat certainly did the big stupid, but she didn't actually start a war. Tywin should have tried acting though the King, or demanded Tyrion be returned and compensation be given. As it was, he started an unprovoked war and broke the King's Peace. He was the one that started it.

All fair enough...this is not the thread for a fight about any one or any thing in particular.  We don't have to agree but we really do have to stay on topic.  I love Jon and Robb and Arya due in no small part because I can see their flaws.  We are given greater insight to them, after all.   Hell Man, part of me stands in awe of Tywin, but I do not love him or want to fight about him.  Reach down deep and just add Walder Frey's absurd ego to the list of worst things.  Or Tywin's even.    I get where betrayal is a worst thing, my good man.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/6/2021 at 12:34 PM, Curled Finger said:

ASOIAF takes place in a quasi medieval setting where people were considered much differently than our own current considerations.  We have made progress and enjoy the benefit of hundreds of years of hindsight in weighing the right and wrongness of events taking place in story.   I have read heated arguments over the worst things and experienced my own roiling nausea at events. There was an exceptional topic covering Hoster Tully's treatment of Lysa in the light of her pregnancy and the marrying of Jon Arryn and more than one outstanding discussion debating the pros and cons of Dany's crucifixion of the Mereneese masters.  Catelyn Tully's errors.  Cersei's betrayal of Lady Stokeworth to Qyburn.  The Hound running Mycah down was so well told from Ned's point of view I cannot help but feel disgusted at the act even though I have come to learn The Hound is not essentially a bad guy.   He did a terrible thing under the orders of his boss.   I still don't like it and find this act does influence my ideas about Sandor Clegane whether I like it or not.   Seems I can't help it.  Arya's later admission that she does not even recall Micha's face is most unsatisfying.   While this senseless murder of an innocent child sticks in my craw, it is not the worst I've read in ASOIAF.   What is the worst thing you have read in this dark dark tale?  Why? 

 

The murder of Mycah doesn't really stand out.  We expected that sort of thing from Sandor and Mycah was a peasant.  Peasant always get victimized.  It was a terrible act of evil but it doesn't have the impact of something that has far larger damage.  Likewise, the murderous acts of psychos like Ramsay, Arya, and Theon are terrible but we expected that from them.  An act which was not expected but caused/will cause significant damage was Jon's betrayal of the brotherhood of the nights' watch.  Westeros Lost. The Lord Commander has betrayed the brotherhood who were assigned to guard her. That small decision was made without hate or harmful intent on the part of Jon but it will lead to the fall of the watch.  It was made without the intent to harm but those are often the most harmful.  Jon was the average John who could not do his job when it came into conflict with the interest of his family.  Jon's is the worst, in my opinion.

The crucifixion of the slave masters is an act of justice.  It was very progressive to allow the slave masters to judge their peers.  It is what happens in the American justice system.  People are judged by juries of their peers.  Which is exactly what happened.  Our story's heroine made the right decision to let the slave masters choose and executed them in a like manner.  I approve.

Hoster's treatment of Lysa was not too unkind.  Another lord whose daughter dishonored the house might have had it worse.  Rickard was going to force Lyanna to marry Robert, who was known to be unfaithful and unkind to his women.  Brandon was a womanizer who dishonored a lot of women, perhaps including Ashara and Lyanna.  Men were unkind to women unless the woman has the power to fight back. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Bracketing Arya and Theon with Ramsay is daft

You know, there comes a time on this forum, when you are so utterly bewildered by a post, when there are so many things wrong with it, that you don't have words and all you can do is laugh.

Like that post has so many things wrong with it, I can't even begin to explained or detail it. I think this is the best however:

1 hour ago, Damsel in Distress said:

The crucifixion of the slave masters is an act of justice.  It was very progressive to allow the slave masters to judge their peers.  It is what happens in the American justice system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You know, there comes a time on this forum, when you are so utterly bewildered by a post, when there are so many things wrong with it, that you don't have words and all you can do is laugh.

Like that post has so many things wrong with it, I can't even begin to explained or detail it. I think this is the best however:

Come to think of it, the poster may not be wrong about the US justice system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Come to think of it, the poster may not be wrong about the US justice system.

Yes, but comparing Dany to the "justice system" that constantly acquitted KKK lynching parties (kinda similar if you ask me to masters deciding who gets crucified) isn't doing Dany any favors

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...